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Re:Dampening paper

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  • Yehuda Miklaf
    I think that dampening sheets and interleaving them with dry sheets gives you a great deal of control over the amount of dampness. If you dunk one sheet and
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 10, 2002
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      I think that dampening sheets and interleaving them with dry sheets
      gives you a great deal of control over the amount of dampness. If you
      dunk one sheet and let the excess drip off, you can control the dampness
      of the post by the number of dry sheets that you interleave with.

      I have not tried an airbrush, but I do use a mister (one of those for
      spraying plants which you can pressurize with a little pump) sometimes.
      It's OK, but not all that easy to get a really even spray.

      It seems to me that overnight is plenty of time for the moisture to
      equalize through the post, provided that it is in a sealed container
      (plastic bag). I usually put a light weight on it to avoid potential
      cockeling.

      Yehuda Miklaf
    • Katie Harper
      This discussion about dampening paper has been VERY useful, and thanks to all who have contributed such good advice. I don t recall seeing anything about when
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 10, 2002
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        This discussion about dampening paper has been VERY useful, and thanks to
        all who have contributed such good advice. I don't recall seeing anything
        about when work is to be printed on both sides, as in book production. Is it
        possible to dampen paper if it's been printed on one side without harming
        the previous printing?


        Katie Harper
        Ars Brevis Press
        Cincinnati, OH
        513-233-9588




        > From: Yehuda Miklaf <mfritz@...>
        > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:18:42 +0200
        > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re:Dampening paper
        >
        > I think that dampening sheets and interleaving them with dry sheets
        > gives you a great deal of control over the amount of dampness. If you
        > dunk one sheet and let the excess drip off, you can control the dampness
        > of the post by the number of dry sheets that you interleave with.
        >
        > I have not tried an airbrush, but I do use a mister (one of those for
        > spraying plants which you can pressurize with a little pump) sometimes.
        > It's OK, but not all that easy to get a really even spray.
        >
        > It seems to me that overnight is plenty of time for the moisture to
        > equalize through the post, provided that it is in a sealed container
        > (plastic bag). I usually put a light weight on it to avoid potential
        > cockeling.
        >
        > Yehuda Miklaf
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
        > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Encountering problems?
        > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
      • bielerpr
        ... Dear Katie I once attended a lecture where the well-regarded speaker announced that he had printed the text of his sheets and then had to put them away for
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 10, 2002
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          > This discussion about dampening paper has been VERY useful, and thanks to
          > all who have contributed such good advice. I don't recall seeing anything
          > about when work is to be printed on both sides, as in book production. Is it
          > possible to dampen paper if it's been printed on one side without harming
          > the previous printing?


          Dear Katie

          I once attended a lecture where the well-regarded speaker announced
          that he had printed the text of his sheets and then had to put them
          away for a time because he had not yet finished his wood engraving
          work. Once that was completed, he dampened the paper for the printing
          of the engravings. My companion and I turned and looked at each other
          in quizzical surprise. Later, after viewing this fellow's printing, she
          came over to me with a horrified look on her face.

          Moral of this little story: If you dampen the paper you are there for
          the long haul, and sometimes it is a very long haul indeed. You can not
          redampen without losing the previous impression. Letterpress without its
          impression just isn't quite near the same sweet song.

          All best

          Gerald
        • typetom@aol.com
          I ve learned the hard way a couple of times. Once I lost registration on a two color flag border, oh my, handmade paper broadside which shrank between runs
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 10, 2002
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            I've learned the hard way a couple of times. Once I lost registration on a
            two color flag border, oh my, handmade paper broadside which shrank between
            runs because it took me all night to get the 2nd run to print correctly.
            Solved the disaster by getting a pink pastel crayon and boldly obliterating
            the details of the old red white & blue.

            Another time I was asked to do a printing demo on dampened paper. My friend
            papermaker Ray Tomasso gave me a stack of samples to work with. Oops, I
            dampened it all into the same plastic bag over night without thinking it
            actually was about 15 different kinds of paper. At demo time some sheets were
            still dry while others had absorbed all the water in the pile. Lesson
            learned: keep different papers in separately wrapped sections or else! Should
            have been obvious, but it's experience that counts.
            Best wishes, Tom

            Tom Parson
            Now It's Up To You Publications
            157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
            (303) 777-8951
            http://members.aol.com/typetom
          • Gerald Lange
            e Moral of this little story: If you dampen the paper you are there for ... Hi Mike Actually by long haul I quess I also assumed a second color or two and
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 11, 2002
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              e> > Moral of this little story: If you dampen the paper you are there for
              > > the long haul, and sometimes it is a very long haul indeed. You can not
              > > redampen without losing the previous impression. Letterpress without its
              > > impression just isn't quite near the same sweet song.
              > >

              > Dear Katie,
              >
              > While Gerry is correct vis-a-vis dampening the paper once again
              > through a tub of water (it's the only method I know), if you have a
              > dampening box, you can redampen the sheets by placing them in the box
              > overnight. Obviously, the foam in the dampening box needs to be moist so
              > that the sheets rehydrate. However, you will not achieve the same level of
              > damp as you will by printing all the runs when you first dampen the sheets.
              >
              > As Gerry said, the best bet is to do it all the first time, hence
              > the efficacy of having a dampening box, or some other such enclosure with
              > which to keep sheets damp.
              >
              > Best of luck, Mike Peich

              Hi Mike

              Actually by "long haul" I quess I also assumed a second color or two and a
              significantly long enough edition run so that the paper would have to be kept
              damp over a certain period of time. A recent book I did required the paper be
              kept at the same consistency of dampness for four to six days. For this you
              must have some quite good humidors (there is a model in the Allen book but it
              can be greatly improved upon—I use a version that was developed by Robin
              Price's father). In this last book we were using four of them to keep the
              paper at various states. I do keep the humidor foam constantly and
              consistently damp (I prayed less for the printing to be over than for the day
              when I could put the foam back in storage!). Once the paper has been processed
              correctly via the dampening process, it is never out of the humidor except for
              those moments it is on press, and then quickly back in to another box with a
              slightly different level of moisture added to the foam.

              This ain't exactly a lot of rocket science—but some level-headed thinking
              about how exactly the paper is reacting to the environment is to the advantage
              in any kind of edition work.

              I can't image plastic garbage bags will do the trick in this regard though I
              know a lot of folks use em. And yes, I do believe the sheets will rehydrate
              through this process without losing impression. In some environments, and over
              such duration, the paper may starting attracting mold and mildew, so it might
              be wise, in such a situation, to add a fungicide to the dampening bath as well
              as to the water used for the foam.

              Guess this little diatribe is based on a bit of wonderment I have re folks
              thinking the dampening process is the end of it and then you throw the paper
              on the delivery cart, edition it, and then put it in a bag overnight for the
              next day's use?

              Gerald
            • Michael Peich
              ... Dear Katie, While Gerry is correct vis-a-vis dampening the paper once again through a tub of water (it s the only method I know), if you have a dampening
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 11, 2002
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                on 3/10/02 8:10 PM, bielerpr at bieler@... wrote:

                >> This discussion about dampening paper has been VERY useful, and thanks to
                >> all who have contributed such good advice. I don't recall seeing anything
                >> about when work is to be printed on both sides, as in book production. Is it
                >> possible to dampen paper if it's been printed on one side without harming
                >> the previous printing?
                >
                >
                > Dear Katie
                >
                > I once attended a lecture where the well-regarded speaker announced
                > that he had printed the text of his sheets and then had to put them
                > away for a time because he had not yet finished his wood engraving
                > work. Once that was completed, he dampened the paper for the printing
                > of the engravings. My companion and I turned and looked at each other
                > in quizzical surprise. Later, after viewing this fellow's printing, she
                > came over to me with a horrified look on her face.
                >
                > Moral of this little story: If you dampen the paper you are there for
                > the long haul, and sometimes it is a very long haul indeed. You can not
                > redampen without losing the previous impression. Letterpress without its
                > impression just isn't quite near the same sweet song.
                >
                > All best
                >
                > Gerald
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
                > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Encountering problems?
                > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >


                Dear Katie,

                While Gerry is correct vis-a-vis dampening the paper once again
                through a tub of water (it's the only method I know), if you have a
                dampening box, you can redampen the sheets by placing them in the box
                overnight. Obviously, the foam in the dampening box needs to be moist so
                that the sheets rehydrate. However, you will not achieve the same level of
                damp as you will by printing all the runs when you first dampen the sheets.

                As Gerry said, the best bet is to do it all the first time, hence
                the efficacy of having a dampening box, or some other such enclosure with
                which to keep sheets damp.

                Best of luck, Mike Peich
              • Katie Harper
                How/where does one obtain or build a dampening box ? Katie Harper Ars Brevis Press Cincinnati, OH 513-233-9588
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 12, 2002
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                  How/where does one obtain or build a "dampening box"?




                  Katie Harper
                  Ars Brevis Press
                  Cincinnati, OH
                  513-233-9588




                  > From: Michael Peich <peich@...>
                  > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:44:47 -0800
                  > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Dampening Two Sides?
                  >
                  > on 3/10/02 8:10 PM, bielerpr at bieler@... wrote:
                  >
                  >>> This discussion about dampening paper has been VERY useful, and thanks to
                  >>> all who have contributed such good advice. I don't recall seeing anything
                  >>> about when work is to be printed on both sides, as in book production. Is it
                  >>> possible to dampen paper if it's been printed on one side without harming
                  >>> the previous printing?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Dear Katie
                  >>
                  >> I once attended a lecture where the well-regarded speaker announced
                  >> that he had printed the text of his sheets and then had to put them
                  >> away for a time because he had not yet finished his wood engraving
                  >> work. Once that was completed, he dampened the paper for the printing
                  >> of the engravings. My companion and I turned and looked at each other
                  >> in quizzical surprise. Later, after viewing this fellow's printing, she
                  >> came over to me with a horrified look on her face.
                  >>
                  >> Moral of this little story: If you dampen the paper you are there for
                  >> the long haul, and sometimes it is a very long haul indeed. You can not
                  >> redampen without losing the previous impression. Letterpress without its
                  >> impression just isn't quite near the same sweet song.
                  >>
                  >> All best
                  >>
                  >> Gerald
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
                  >> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  >>
                  >> Encountering problems?
                  >> PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >>
                  >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Katie,
                  >
                  > While Gerry is correct vis-a-vis dampening the paper once again
                  > through a tub of water (it's the only method I know), if you have a
                  > dampening box, you can redampen the sheets by placing them in the box
                  > overnight. Obviously, the foam in the dampening box needs to be moist so
                  > that the sheets rehydrate. However, you will not achieve the same level of
                  > damp as you will by printing all the runs when you first dampen the sheets.
                  >
                  > As Gerry said, the best bet is to do it all the first time, hence
                  > the efficacy of having a dampening box, or some other such enclosure with
                  > which to keep sheets damp.
                  >
                  > Best of luck, Mike Peich
                  >
                  >
                  > To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
                  > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Encountering problems?
                  > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Michael Peich
                  ... Dear Katie, The best description, with diagrams, is offered by Lewis and Dorothy Allen in their Allen Press Bibliography. The original is a severely
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 12, 2002
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                    on 3/12/02 7:30 AM, Katie Harper at knharper@... wrote:

                    > How/where does one obtain or build a "dampening box"?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Katie Harper
                    > Ars Brevis Press
                    > Cincinnati, OH
                    > 513-233-9588
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >> From: Michael Peich <peich@...>
                    >> Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:44:47 -0800
                    >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Dampening Two Sides?
                    >>
                    >> on 3/10/02 8:10 PM, bielerpr at bieler@... wrote:
                    >>
                    >>>> This discussion about dampening paper has been VERY useful, and thanks to
                    >>>> all who have contributed such good advice. I don't recall seeing anything
                    >>>> about when work is to be printed on both sides, as in book production. Is
                    >>>> it
                    >>>> possible to dampen paper if it's been printed on one side without harming
                    >>>> the previous printing?
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> Dear Katie
                    >>>
                    >>> I once attended a lecture where the well-regarded speaker announced
                    >>> that he had printed the text of his sheets and then had to put them
                    >>> away for a time because he had not yet finished his wood engraving
                    >>> work. Once that was completed, he dampened the paper for the printing
                    >>> of the engravings. My companion and I turned and looked at each other
                    >>> in quizzical surprise. Later, after viewing this fellow's printing, she
                    >>> came over to me with a horrified look on her face.
                    >>>
                    >>> Moral of this little story: If you dampen the paper you are there for
                    >>> the long haul, and sometimes it is a very long haul indeed. You can not
                    >>> redampen without losing the previous impression. Letterpress without its
                    >>> impression just isn't quite near the same sweet song.
                    >>>
                    >>> All best
                    >>>
                    >>> Gerald
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>> To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
                    >>> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>
                    >>> Encountering problems?
                    >>> PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >>>
                    >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Dear Katie,
                    >>
                    >> While Gerry is correct vis-a-vis dampening the paper once again
                    >> through a tub of water (it's the only method I know), if you have a
                    >> dampening box, you can redampen the sheets by placing them in the box
                    >> overnight. Obviously, the foam in the dampening box needs to be moist so
                    >> that the sheets rehydrate. However, you will not achieve the same level of
                    >> damp as you will by printing all the runs when you first dampen the sheets.
                    >>
                    >> As Gerry said, the best bet is to do it all the first time, hence
                    >> the efficacy of having a dampening box, or some other such enclosure with
                    >> which to keep sheets damp.
                    >>
                    >> Best of luck, Mike Peich
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
                    >> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    >>
                    >> Encountering problems?
                    >> PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >>
                    >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To respond to this message or post a message to the membership:
                    > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Encountering problems?
                    > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >


                    Dear Katie,

                    The best description, with diagrams, is offered by Lewis and Dorothy
                    Allen in their Allen Press Bibliography. The original is a severely limited
                    edition, but there were at least two reprints of it published (I think) by
                    the Book Club of California. You'll probably find it in a special
                    collections library, or if you're near a large library, ask for it on
                    inter-library loan. If you can find a copy for sale, it's worth adding to
                    one's library.

                    Best of luck.

                    Cheers, Mike
                  • Suzie McKig
                    I just read your post, Gerald, about Arches 88 and it triggered my curiosity about dampening methods. I will soon be working with some paper that will require
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                      I just read your post, Gerald, about Arches 88 and it triggered my
                      curiosity about dampening methods. I will soon be working with some
                      paper that will require dampening and I'd love to know more from those
                      with experience which way(s) is(are) favored by all of you to dampen
                      such paper. :o) Please accept my thanks in advance...

                      Suzie
                    • jsf73
                      Hi Suzie, Japanese style woodblock printers always print on damp paper but use water based pigments. The preferred method of dampening paper so that it isnt
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                        Hi Suzie,

                        Japanese style woodblock printers always print on damp paper but use
                        water based pigments. The preferred method of dampening paper so that
                        it isnt too wet to print for a while is to dampen alternating sheets
                        of paper with a wide brush. The dampened paper is placed between
                        blotter paper and stored in a plastic bag or tupperware container.

                        By alternating one wet sheet and one dry sheet and leaving sit for
                        about half an hour the moisture level in the paper balances out and
                        the dry paper absorbs the excess water that was brushed onto the
                        sheets that got brushed.

                        Another method is to soak the paper in water a sheet at a time then
                        place between blotter paper. This method requires a long wait time
                        between wetting and printing, such as over night or the paper will be
                        too wet.

                        The sole reason to dampen paper is to make it softer. This is what
                        makes it print better.

                        A word about Arches 88, it is a screen printing paper with a very
                        smooth surface meant for screen printing. It is also what is called a
                        waterleaf paper, and has no internal sizing. It is not supposed to be
                        dampened. Arches 88 can be ruined by being improperly wetted. If you
                        do wet it and print multiple impressions you can have more
                        registation problems due to shrinkage and expansion issues due to
                        lack of internal sizing. No internal sizing means the paper is free
                        to expand and contract with every little change in dampness level
                        moreso that with sized paper.

                        A word of caution about printing on dampened paper. If you have a
                        long run or get interrupted frequently and dont manage to print your
                        edition in a couple days then you need to preserve your paper, let it
                        dry out, or finish your print edition.

                        Paper and sizing that is damp is an excellent host for mold growth.
                        Once it starts you are lost, and your printed work will show telltle
                        foxing marks that only get bigger if conditions permit. If your shop
                        conditions are moist and warm (such as in the southeastern US)mold
                        can growth can start in a couple days.

                        Chemical preservatives are usually poisonous and bad for paper. They
                        are surely not archival.

                        If you must interrupt printing an edition for what ever reason, take
                        your paper and place it in the freezer. When you want to return to
                        printing take your paper out of the freezer and leave it sit for an
                        hour. It will be fine and mold will not be an issue.

                        I doubt anyone here is printing with 12 impressions with large
                        editions sizes that require a weeks worth of printing normally but
                        just in case someone has to leave a job temporarily that is the best
                        way to keep your paper without mold becoming a problem.


                        I have one question myself, is there anyone on this list from the
                        Toronto area that makes polymer plates for letterpress printing by
                        hand wash out method? I would like to see what quality work you are
                        able to acheive with hand washout, since there is no way on gods
                        green earth I can ever afford a platemaker as printing is only an
                        avocation for me....


                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Suzie McKig <suzie@s...> wrote:
                        > I just read your post, Gerald, about Arches 88 and it triggered my
                        > curiosity about dampening methods. I will soon be working with some
                        > paper that will require dampening and I'd love to know more from
                        those
                        > with experience which way(s) is(are) favored by all of you to
                        dampen
                        > such paper. :o) Please accept my thanks in advance...
                        >
                        > Suzie
                      • M a n i f e s t o P r e s s
                        I had a 2 ply board which I used to print an invitation. The board was really hard and the client wanted a rather large deboss of an oak tree in the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                          I had a 2 ply board which I used to print an invitation. The board was
                          really hard and the client wanted a rather large deboss of an oak tree in
                          the background. My solution was to have my intern mist ten sheets of paper
                          at a time with a plant mister, blotted off the excess water with a paper
                          towel and then stack them, wrapped in the wet paper towel. The result was a
                          sheet surface which had been softened, and received an impression
                          beautifully.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Suzie There was some fairly intensive discussion on this topic a while back here. You might want to check the Messages archives to get the full spectrum. I use
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                            Suzie

                            There was some fairly intensive discussion on this topic a while back
                            here. You might want to check the Messages archives to get the full
                            spectrum.

                            I use the technique described by Lewis Allen in his book Printing With
                            the Handpress (mentioned by Robin) along with William Everson's
                            statements on paper as the theory to guide me. The Allen book is
                            available on the used book market. A search at abe.com will pick up a
                            dozen or so.

                            Another useful technique is proffered by Gabriel Rummonds in his
                            Printing on the Iron Handpress. This is still in print and available
                            from Oak Knoll Books.

                            Both these descriptions are quite thorough and useful. And both these
                            titles are extremely important printing manuals and very much worth having.

                            Gerald

                            .
                            > I just read your post, Gerald, about Arches 88 and it triggered my
                            > curiosity about dampening methods. I will soon be working with some
                            > paper that will require dampening and I'd love to know more from those
                            > with experience which way(s) is(are) favored by all of you to dampen
                            > such paper. :o) Please accept my thanks in advance...
                            >
                            > Suzie
                          • Gerald Lange
                            jsf73 Guess I ll have to get myself a freezer unit. Had not heard about this before. Does the impression hold after unthawing? My experience tells me
                            Message 13 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                              jsf73


                              Guess I'll have to get myself a freezer unit. Had not heard about this before. Does the impression hold after unthawing?


                              My experience tells me differently about waterleafs. I have had very little trouble with waterleafs or internally sized papers. But I have learned to steer away from externally sized papers, such as those formulated for watercolor work. You will have shrinkage and expansion issues due to the dampening process itself. This is more an effect pronounced by grain direction than it is from sizing, or the lack of it, as far as I can tell.


                              The project I did with the Arches 88 involved a form that filled the entire bed of my SP-15, ran five colors per sheet, with extraordinarily difficult registration and coverage from top to bottom. And, over a five day period. I did experience initial registration problems, but they were do to a presswork technique I was neglecting rather than any factor of the paper. If the paper is cut so that the grain direction allows the paper to hold to the cylinder rather than flop away from it, you will generally experience far fewer registration problems. I would not hesitate to use this paper, dampened, in future work.


                              Gerald
                              >
                              > A word about Arches 88, it is a screen printing paper with a very
                              > smooth surface meant for screen printing. It is also what is called a
                              > waterleaf paper, and has no internal sizing. It is not supposed to be
                              > dampened. Arches 88 can be ruined by being improperly wetted. If you
                              > do wet it and print multiple impressions you can have more
                              > registation problems due to shrinkage and expansion issues due to
                              > lack of internal sizing. No internal sizing means the paper is free
                              > to expand and contract with every little change in dampness level
                              > moreso that with sized paper.
                              >
                            • Jsf73@aol.com
                              Gerald, I am glad to hear you have little trouble using dampened Arches 88. It is a very fine paper. I know people who do use it for uses it isnt intended and
                              Message 14 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                                Gerald,

                                I am glad to hear you have little trouble using dampened Arches 88. It is a
                                very fine paper. I know people who do use it for uses it isnt intended and
                                acheive excellent results. I even know a photographer who uses it for water
                                processed alternative photo processes where it sits in a water bath for an hour or
                                more and it doesnt deteriorate if given careful handling.

                                My uses also difer from yours too I guess since printing water colour
                                pigments from wood blocks on dampened waterleaf would cause the edges to lose their
                                crispness. In printing woodblocks with a Baren the pigments are forced deep
                                into the paper dying the fibers (the pigments often press right thru the paper
                                entirely). If there is no sizing the pigments migrate too far along the fibers
                                losing definition. So I assume you are using oil based inks and that helps. I
                                also suspect you are properly dampening your paper with atomizer and handling
                                it carefully. Damp not wet, the paper should just be soft and not sodden. This
                                makes a big difference.

                                As for freezing dampened paper, if you are using water based pigments you
                                have no problem freezing the paper and returning to printing as time allows. Even
                                the embossing remains intact after freezing and thawing.

                                I do not know if this holds true for printing with oil based ink, but I
                                assume it would. I suggest a little test run to experiment with it. Assuming you
                                print a lot with dampened paper and need to keep the paper dampened an extended
                                period of time where mold may become an issue.... Otherwise why waste the time
                                and effort.

                                Unfortunately I have little experience printing with oil based inks yet. I am
                                learning to properly print my engravings with oil based inks now and am still
                                trying to get the balance correct between deep blacks and image details.

                                As for actual type, I have only recently gotten interested in printing type
                                to add to some of my woodcut and engraving works and have almost no experience
                                with it yet. That is why I joined this forum.

                                John Furr
                                Toronto

                                In a message dated 9/30/03 4:34:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                bieler@... writes:


                                > jsf73
                                >
                                >
                                > Guess I'll have to get myself a freezer unit. Had not heard about this
                                > before. Does the impression hold after unthawing?
                                >
                                >
                                > My experience tells me differently about waterleafs. I have had very little
                                > trouble with waterleafs or internally sized papers. But I have learned to
                                > steer away from externally sized papers, such as those formulated for watercolor
                                > work. You will have shrinkage and expansion issues due to the dampening
                                > process itself. This is more an effect pronounced by grain direction than it is
                                > from sizing, or the lack of it, as far as I can tell.
                                >
                                >
                                > The project I did with the Arches 88 involved a form that filled the entire
                                > bed of my SP-15, ran five colors per sheet, with extraordinarily difficult
                                > registration and coverage from top to bottom. And, over a five day period. I
                                > did experience initial registration problems, but they were do to a presswork
                                > technique I was neglecting rather than any factor of the paper. If the paper
                                > is cut so that the grain direction allows the paper to hold to the cylinder
                                > rather than flop away from it, you will generally experience far fewer
                                > registration problems. I would not hesitate to use this paper, dampened, in future
                                > work.
                                >
                                >
                                > Gerald
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Gerald Lange
                                John Welcome to the list. No, I don t use an atomizer. Bit too much paper to deal with and I wouldn t be able to control the process as well as if I use the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                                  John

                                  Welcome to the list.

                                  No, I don't use an atomizer. Bit too much paper to deal with and I
                                  wouldn't be able to control the process as well as if I use the good
                                  old SpongeBobSquarePants technique. Actually I use natural sponges but
                                  couldn't resist. An atomizer also would not allow for consistency in
                                  the look of the type. Especially for text work. Far too much variation
                                  inherent in that technique. Yeah, the differences here are probably
                                  due to a mechanical technique verses a purely hand technique.

                                  Are you on the wood engraver's yahoo site as well? Or the baren site?
                                  I like those sites, lots of discussion about process.

                                  http://www.barenforum.org
                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wood-Engravers-Network/

                                  Gerald


                                  > also suspect you are properly dampening your paper with atomizer and
                                  handling
                                  > it carefully. Damp not wet, the paper should just be soft and not
                                  sodden. This
                                  > makes a big difference.
                                  >

                                  > As for freezing dampened paper, if you are using water based
                                  pigments you
                                  > have no problem freezing the paper and returning to printing as time
                                  allows. Even
                                  > the embossing remains intact after freezing and thawing.
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > As for actual type, I have only recently gotten interested in
                                  printing type
                                  > to add to some of my woodcut and engraving works and have almost no
                                  experience
                                  > with it yet. That is why I joined this forum.
                                  >
                                  > John Furr
                                  > Toronto
                                • Jsf73@aol.com
                                  Thanks for the welcome to the list Gerald. Yes, not only am I on the Wood Engravers Network as well as the Baren Forum, I attended events sponsored by both
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Sep 30, 2003
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                                    Thanks for the welcome to the list Gerald.

                                    Yes, not only am I on the Wood Engravers Network as well as the Baren Forum,
                                    I attended events sponsored by both groups this summer. I was at the first
                                    ever Baren Summit in Kansas City in June and the WEN summer workshop in Ann
                                    Arbor in August. Met some excellent artists and learned from some of the best
                                    engravers and woodblock printers in the world.

                                    If only PPLetterpress would have some some of print workshop for polymer
                                    plate printing I would be there too.... So much to learn, so little time.

                                    Since you know Baren you should get this Gerald, you are like the David Bull
                                    of Baren for those interested in polymer plate printing. Thanks for
                                    contributing this site for those who share an interest in letterpress.

                                    John

                                    n a message dated 9/30/03 5:49:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                    bieler@... writes:


                                    > Are you on the wood engraver's yahoo site as well? Or the baren site?
                                    > I like those sites, lots of discussion about process.
                                    >
                                    > http://www.barenforum.org
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wood-Engravers-Network/
                                    >
                                    > Gerald
                                    >



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Gerald Lange
                                    John There are a number of members as well as institutions that do provide instruction in photopolymer. We have a links section here that provides the URL for
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 1, 2003
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                                      John

                                      There are a number of members as well as institutions that do provide
                                      instruction in photopolymer. We have a links section here that
                                      provides the URL for the institutions that offer workshops and courses
                                      to the public. Check the Members' Sites links as well. Inge Bruggeman
                                      has her site listed there and she offers workshops.

                                      And it looks like I may be offering my Digital Letterpress class
                                      again. Probably at Art Center (in Pasadena) beginning in the summer if
                                      everything works out.

                                      Gerald
                                      >
                                      > If only PPLetterpress would have some some of print workshop for
                                      polymer
                                      > plate printing I would be there too.... So much to learn, so little
                                      time.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > John
                                      >
                                      > n a message dated 9/30/03 5:49:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                      > bieler@w... writes:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Are you on the wood engraver's yahoo site as well? Or the baren site?
                                      > > I like those sites, lots of discussion about process.
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.barenforum.org
                                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wood-Engravers-Network/
                                      > >
                                      > > Gerald
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jsf73@aol.com
                                      Hi Gerald, Thanks for the tips on where to look for instruction on polymer printing. I am taking a typesetting and letterpress course Oct. 25th, but the woman
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 1, 2003
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                                        Hi Gerald,

                                        Thanks for the tips on where to look for instruction on polymer printing. I
                                        am taking a typesetting and letterpress course Oct. 25th, but the woman holding
                                        the course has never used polymer plates. I guess it wont hurt for me to
                                        learn the traditional methods anyway...

                                        I would go a fair distance for something I cannot learn anywhere else, but
                                        Pasadena is a little too far to include this year. My wife is already furious I
                                        have spent so much on courses this year.

                                        Maybe I can try Harold at Boxcar press? My letterpress course is in Kingston
                                        Ontario where my folks live, and Syracuse NY is not that far from there
                                        either.... Of course Harold sounds too busy to offer a course too...

                                        Well these things usually work out and someone fairly local may offer some
                                        help for a reasonable fee or barter. I have been lucky with that so far
                                        exchanging lessons in different areas to learn more in areas I dont know.

                                        Thanks for your help Gerald, it is appreciated very much.

                                        John furr


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • JaciSull@aol.com
                                        John, Not sure where you are located but College for Creative Studies in Detroit has had photopolymer plate classes taught by Lynne Avadenka. Jacqueline
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 1, 2003
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                                          John,
                                          Not sure where you are located but College for Creative Studies in Detroit
                                          has had photopolymer plate classes taught by Lynne Avadenka.
                                          Jacqueline


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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