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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting

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  • David Wall
    ... Oh come on . . . I haven t been following this thread up until now, so maybe I ve missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney. I consider
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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      > But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
      > impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
      > photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or relief
      > depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is
      > self
      > evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence
      > of
      > increased impression with the letterpress process.  If folks need deep
      > impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
      > photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a
      > technical
      > reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
      > regard to letterpress formulated plates.

      Oh come on . . . I haven't been following this thread up until now, so
      maybe I've missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney.
      I consider myself an appropriately seasoned printer and I've never
      found "splay" to be of any more consequence with photopolymer than it
      is with metal type---which is to say, no consequence at all. If we were
      using plates similar in durometer to hard rubber stamps I can see where
      it would be a factor, but I highly doubt that any splay in the plates
      that any of us use would be noticeable unless you were either
      deliberately abusing the plate---by which I don't mean simply "deep
      impression"---or you were somehow measuring in microns---in which case
      ink squeeze and the amount of ink on the rollers would obliterate any
      reliable evidence of splay. Perhaps this phenomenon is a factor in
      flexo printing of screened images in cases where precise color matching
      of prepress proofs and original artwork is important, but it certainly
      doesn't play any significant role in letterpress printing from polymer
      plates.

      Dave

      ________________
      David P. Wall
      The Applecart Press, LLC
      14 Maine Street, Box 43
      Brunswick, ME 04011
      Tel. 207-373-1690
      Fax 207-373-1691
      www.applecartpress.com
    • Gerald Lange
      David This kind of surprises me. I guess I ll have to respectively disagree. There are techical reports I could dig up concerning quantitative compression and
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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        David

        This kind of surprises me. I guess I'll have to respectively disagree.

        There are techical reports I could dig up concerning quantitative
        compression and pressure measures of photopolymer plates which I would
        assume have more weight than "our" experiential wisdom or ad hoc
        tests, but clearly, what a waste of effort that would be.

        Gerald


        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, David Wall <applecartpress@y...>
        wrote:
        > > But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
        > > impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
        > > photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or
        relief
        > > depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is
        > > self
        > > evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence
        > > of
        > > increased impression with the letterpress process. If folks need
        deep
        > > impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
        > > photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a
        > > technical
        > > reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
        > > regard to letterpress formulated plates.
        >
        > Oh come on . . . I haven't been following this thread up until now, so
        > maybe I've missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney.
        > I consider myself an appropriately seasoned printer and I've never
        > found "splay" to be of any more consequence with photopolymer than it
        > is with metal type---which is to say, no consequence at all. If we were
        > using plates similar in durometer to hard rubber stamps I can see where
        > it would be a factor, but I highly doubt that any splay in the plates
        > that any of us use would be noticeable unless you were either
        > deliberately abusing the plate---by which I don't mean simply "deep
        > impression"---or you were somehow measuring in microns---in which case
        > ink squeeze and the amount of ink on the rollers would obliterate any
        > reliable evidence of splay. Perhaps this phenomenon is a factor in
        > flexo printing of screened images in cases where precise color matching
        > of prepress proofs and original artwork is important, but it certainly
        > doesn't play any significant role in letterpress printing from polymer
        > plates.
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > ________________
        > David P. Wall
        > The Applecart Press, LLC
        > 14 Maine Street, Box 43
        > Brunswick, ME 04011
        > Tel. 207-373-1690
        > Fax 207-373-1691
        > www.applecartpress.com
      • Harold Kyle
        ... I m sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a higher grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of the line? ...
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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          On 6/3/05 5:45 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
          > My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo.
          I'm sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a higher
          grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of the line?

          > so it is essentially
          > misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
          > you suggest.
          The test I did showed that the Printight plate gained more with less detail.
          To get more detail I would have had to increase exposure, causing more gain.
          I relied on the rep selling Printight to dial in the right numbers. But I
          agree that this is a slippery issue, and best left up to the printer's
          judgement. I'm stating my personal preference and standing up for it based
          on tests I've done. The differences between brands are minimal but when I
          print I have the attitude: "I need all the help I can get." I really wish I
          could afford BASF plates, and I might consider using them more if they
          didn't smell so much!

          > Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
          > surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?
          We sell Printight plates alongside Jet and BASF plates, so we're very
          familiar with the Printight brand in relation to the competition. We prefer
          them for intaglio processing. The pricing is comparable with Jet plates, so
          yes I would be tempted to switch brands if I felt the plates were equally
          sharp on the letterpress. The Printight salesman hasn't given up--we may be
          troubleshooting the gain issues soon. For now, I'm sticking with the plates
          that I know are going to give the best results.

          I'll be back on Monday! The trailer's loaded up and ready to go.

          Harold


          Boxcar Press
          Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
          Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
          315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
        • LA. Book Arts
          All, the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn t seem to have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing if she has
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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            All,

            the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn't seem to
            have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing
            if she has enough or what.
            The exposing of a plate with Film is a very critical stage of
            platemaking, a good vacuum, a good piece of Film and it's smooth
            sailing. I just made 65 9.5 x13 inch plates (WH 94) for a book project
            the other day.
            If you have no way of measuring your action it is very difficult to
            repeat it over and over.

            charles


            www.custombindery.com
          • Gerald Lange
            Harold I actually prefer the BASF, especially for halftones or very fine detail though I am not sure I have quite figured out the correct washout for them as
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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              Harold

              I actually prefer the BASF, especially for halftones or very fine
              detail though I am not sure I have quite figured out the correct
              washout for them as they never seem finished to me. The surface
              texture is ideal, but yes, they do stink and crud up the bath. I like
              plates that indicate by color, surface and subsurface, which both the
              BASF and the Toyobo do. For some reason I think it helps clarify
              things for me.

              There are probably a lot better plates out there, BASF is getting to
              be rather old technology I'd think (maybe that's not bad though).
              Would appreciate any info you discover in this regard.

              You might like this: When I first started buying photopolymer plates I
              went to visit my processor and discovered a completely different plate
              on his press (a BASF). I asked him why he didn't sell those to his
              clients. He didn't miss a beat, "Because my customers are too f***ing
              cheap."

              At any rate, I keep profiles on clients as to their needs and
              expectations and often process plates based on various formulas I have
              used. I think the Toyobos require much less exposure and much more
              washout (than the reps tell you) to get to finer detail and better
              substructure. I've run Jets at the same formula and they are not quite
              there. So I assume they have their own configuration. But I don't use
              them or sell them so don't know what that would be.

              Once again, good luck with the move.

              Gerald

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@b...> wrote:
              > On 6/3/05 5:45 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...> wrote:
              > > My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with
              Toyobo.
              > I'm sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a
              higher
              > grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of
              the line?
              >
              > > so it is essentially
              > > misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
              > > you suggest.
              > The test I did showed that the Printight plate gained more with less
              detail.
              > To get more detail I would have had to increase exposure, causing
              more gain.
              > I relied on the rep selling Printight to dial in the right numbers.
              But I
              > agree that this is a slippery issue, and best left up to the printer's
              > judgement. I'm stating my personal preference and standing up for it
              based
              > on tests I've done. The differences between brands are minimal but
              when I
              > print I have the attitude: "I need all the help I can get." I really
              wish I
              > could afford BASF plates, and I might consider using them more if they
              > didn't smell so much!
              >
              > > Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
              > > surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?
              > We sell Printight plates alongside Jet and BASF plates, so we're very
              > familiar with the Printight brand in relation to the competition. We
              prefer
              > them for intaglio processing. The pricing is comparable with Jet
              plates, so
              > yes I would be tempted to switch brands if I felt the plates were
              equally
              > sharp on the letterpress. The Printight salesman hasn't given up--we
              may be
              > troubleshooting the gain issues soon. For now, I'm sticking with the
              plates
              > that I know are going to give the best results.
              >
              > I'll be back on Monday! The trailer's loaded up and ready to go.
              >
              > Harold
              >
              >
              > Boxcar Press
              > Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
              > Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
              > 315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
            • Gerald Lange
              Hi Charles No vacuum gauge? How did you find that out? Geez, this was all sort of a big waste of time then wasn t it? If it does nothing else, a gauge will
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 4, 2005
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                Hi Charles

                No vacuum gauge? How did you find that out?

                Geez, this was all sort of a big waste of time then wasn't it? If it
                does nothing else, a gauge will tell you when vacuum is iffy, and, if
                it reveals release during exposure, your plate/s just went south. Kind
                of an important feature.

                Gerald


                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, LA. Book Arts <livres@a...> wrote:
                > All,
                >
                > the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn't seem to
                > have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing
                > if she has enough or what.
                > The exposing of a plate with Film is a very critical stage of
                > platemaking, a good vacuum, a good piece of Film and it's smooth
                > sailing. I just made 65 9.5 x13 inch plates (WH 94) for a book project
                > the other day.
                > If you have no way of measuring your action it is very difficult to
                > repeat it over and over.
                >
                > charles
                >
                >
                > www.custombindery.com
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