Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

troubleshooting

Expand Messages
  • Jessica Spring
    I m working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules. The first attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum problem. I
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules. The first
      attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum problem.
      I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but visible
      "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
      suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
      Thanks,
      Jessica
    • Gerald Lange
      Jessica I m surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model? Gerald ... The first ... problem.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Jessica

        I'm surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a
        platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model?

        Gerald


        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
        wrote:
        > I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules.
        The first
        > attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum
        problem.
        > I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but
        visible
        > "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
        > suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
        > Thanks,
        > Jessica
      • Jessica Spring
        It s a Polimero Interflex A4.
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          It's a Polimero Interflex A4.

          > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
          > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:54:43 -0000
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
          >
          > Jessica
          >
          > I'm surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a
          > platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model?
          >
          > Gerald
          >
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
          > wrote:
          >> I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules.
          > The first
          >> attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum
          > problem.
          >> I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but
          > visible
          >> "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
          >> suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
          >> Thanks,
          >> Jessica
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Gerald Lange
          Jessica Does this model have the kreene attached to a steel rod that you roll down? I ve found that vacuum is much more secure without the steel rod. I cut a
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Jessica

            Does this model have the kreene attached to a steel rod that you roll
            down? I've found that vacuum is much more secure without the steel
            rod. I cut a sheet to fit the vacuum table and leave it at that. Seems
            to prevent any vacuum problems.

            But I really don't understand how the vacuum could pull down the
            kreene stronger in one area of the plate than another. Or how that
            would leave "plaid marks" on the plate itself. Especially, I guess, as
            there is a film negative between the kreene and the plate.

            Next question toward a solution I suspect is what type of film and
            plate are you using? Or, are you sure this isn't an exposure or
            washout problem? A low water level can cause the brushes to mark the
            surface of a plate.

            Gerald

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
            wrote:
            > It's a Polimero Interflex A4.
            >
            > > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...>
            > > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:54:43 -0000
            > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
            > >
            > > Jessica
            > >
            > > I'm surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a
            > > platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model?
            > >
            > > Gerald
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
            > > wrote:
            > >> I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules.
            > > The first
            > >> attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum
            > > problem.
            > >> I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but
            > > visible
            > >> "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
            > >> suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
            > >> Thanks,
            > >> Jessica
            > >
          • typetom@aol.com
            ... more suction. I m guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum is sucking hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
              >there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced
              more suction.


              I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum is sucking
              hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the negative, by
              pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use steel-backed
              plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support layer beneath the
              plate material might solve the problem?

              Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it wouldn't
              show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if the lines
              had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin rules
              would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!


              Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
              Tom

              Tom Parson
              Now It's Up To You Publications
              157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
              (303) 777-8951
              http://members.aol.com/typetom


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gerald Lange
              Tom Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the vacuum line. That
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Tom

                Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of
                these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the
                vacuum line. That would sort of be a major engineering flaw. I process
                both steel-backed and polyester-backed plates in my machine and I
                can't imagine this to be the case. While polyester-backed plates are
                certainly flexible (and a bit unnerving to those accustomed to
                steel-backs), they are not flexible enough to be drawn down into that
                thinly etched vacuum line, unless there is something wildly out of
                wack with Jessica's vacuum pump!

                Gerald


                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@a... wrote:
                >
                >
                > In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                > >there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines
                produced
                > more suction.
                >
                >
                > I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum
                is sucking
                > hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                negative, by
                > pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use
                steel-backed
                > plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support
                layer beneath the
                > plate material might solve the problem?
                >
                > Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it
                wouldn't
                > show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if
                the lines
                > had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin
                rules
                > would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!
                >
                >
                > Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                > Tom
                >
                > Tom Parson
                > Now It's Up To You Publications
                > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                > (303) 777-8951
                > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jessica Spring
                Tom & Gerald-- The plates are 94FL. I do have the steel bar at the bottom, so I can try taking that off, and for comparison I can try a steel-backed plate. The
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tom & Gerald--
                  The plates are 94FL. I do have the steel bar at the bottom, so I can try
                  taking that off, and for comparison I can try a steel-backed plate. The last
                  bit of the mystery: my vacuum has a simple on-off switch and half the time
                  the button won't stay on. I've replaced the button itself, but the problem
                  remains, which Jet attributes to humidity. Hmmmm. I have to let it sort of
                  warm up, then it stays on. As Charles suggested, I think the vacuum is a
                  stinker (AKA "wildly out of whack") and this plate happens to reveal that in
                  a way I hadn't seen consistently with type.

                  Jessica

                  > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
                  > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:02:55 -0000
                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
                  >
                  > Tom
                  >
                  > Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of
                  > these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the
                  > vacuum line. That would sort of be a major engineering flaw. I process
                  > both steel-backed and polyester-backed plates in my machine and I
                  > can't imagine this to be the case. While polyester-backed plates are
                  > certainly flexible (and a bit unnerving to those accustomed to
                  > steel-backs), they are not flexible enough to be drawn down into that
                  > thinly etched vacuum line, unless there is something wildly out of
                  > wack with Jessica's vacuum pump!
                  >
                  > Gerald
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@a... wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                  >>> there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines
                  > produced
                  >> more suction.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum
                  > is sucking
                  >> hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                  > negative, by
                  >> pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use
                  > steel-backed
                  >> plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support
                  > layer beneath the
                  >> plate material might solve the problem?
                  >>
                  >> Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it
                  > wouldn't
                  >> show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if
                  > the lines
                  >> had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin
                  > rules
                  >> would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                  >> Tom
                  >>
                  >> Tom Parson
                  >> Now It's Up To You Publications
                  >> 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                  >> (303) 777-8951
                  >> http://members.aol.com/typetom
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Gerald Lange
                  Jessica 94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don t know if this is the culprit or not. I d recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jessica

                    94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don't know if this is the culprit or not. I'd recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might also think about switching to a higher grade plate brand.

                    Gerald

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
                    wrote:
                    > Tom & Gerald--
                    > The plates are 94FL. I do have the steel bar at the bottom, so I can try
                    > taking that off, and for comparison I can try a steel-backed plate.
                    The last
                    > bit of the mystery: my vacuum has a simple on-off switch and half
                    the time
                    > the button won't stay on. I've replaced the button itself, but the
                    problem
                    > remains, which Jet attributes to humidity. Hmmmm. I have to let it
                    sort of
                    > warm up, then it stays on. As Charles suggested, I think the vacuum is a
                    > stinker (AKA "wildly out of whack") and this plate happens to reveal
                    that in
                    > a way I hadn't seen consistently with type.
                    >
                    > Jessica
                    >
                    > > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...>
                    > > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:02:55 -0000
                    > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
                    > >
                    > > Tom
                    > >
                    > > Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of
                    > > these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the
                    > > vacuum line. That would sort of be a major engineering flaw. I process
                    > > both steel-backed and polyester-backed plates in my machine and I
                    > > can't imagine this to be the case. While polyester-backed plates are
                    > > certainly flexible (and a bit unnerving to those accustomed to
                    > > steel-backs), they are not flexible enough to be drawn down into that
                    > > thinly etched vacuum line, unless there is something wildly out of
                    > > wack with Jessica's vacuum pump!
                    > >
                    > > Gerald
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@a... wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                    > >>> there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines
                    > > produced
                    > >> more suction.
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum
                    > > is sucking
                    > >> hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                    > > negative, by
                    > >> pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use
                    > > steel-backed
                    > >> plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support
                    > > layer beneath the
                    > >> plate material might solve the problem?
                    > >>
                    > >> Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it
                    > > wouldn't
                    > >> show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if
                    > > the lines
                    > >> had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin
                    > > rules
                    > >> would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                    > >> Tom
                    > >>
                    > >> Tom Parson
                    > >> Now It's Up To You Publications
                    > >> 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                    > >> (303) 777-8951
                    > >> http://members.aol.com/typetom
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                  • Harold Kyle
                    ... Well you finally stirred me to write with this comment! Re: softness . The hardness of the 94FL is 62 shore D so I think you d have a hard time seeing the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 6/3/05 1:22 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                      > 94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don't know if this is the culprit or
                      > not. I'd recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might also
                      > think about switching to a higher grade plate brand.

                      Well you finally stirred me to write with this comment!

                      Re: "softness". The hardness of the 94FL is 62 shore D so I think you'd have
                      a hard time seeing the difference between it and your recommended range of
                      65-70. The difference is insubstantial. Also, should you want a harder
                      plate, Jet makes a 94HFL that has 80 shore D. We at Boxcar Press have a job
                      shop running the popular "deep impression" printing exclusively from the
                      94FL. The plate's printing shows no evidence of "softness".

                      Re: "Higher grade plate", Gerald, your opinion of Jet 94FL plates are of
                      less quality will not be borne out in a side to side test of the material. A
                      rep selling Toyobo Printight visited Boxcar Press' shop earlier this week
                      and we proofed a test plate of Printight KF95 next to the Jet 94FL material.
                      The Jet plate showed more detail and, at the same time, exhibited less gain;
                      this is with a rep selling Printight monitoring the processing. After
                      extensive testing, I've come to conclude that the only plate that gives the
                      94FL a run for the money is the BASF WH95. The cost difference between these
                      plates makes the 94FL much more desirable option. I would be happy, by the
                      way, to scan a proof of the side-by-side comparison of Printight and Jet
                      plates when I get a chance.

                      Re: Jessica's platemaking "plaid" problem. I'm problem solving this with the
                      manufacturer of the machine, who apparently can furnish a vacuum table
                      adaptor to make the grooves less noticeable. I want to get more information
                      before I promise you that this is possible. Apparently, the adaptor is a
                      "diamond-plate" material that sits in the vacuum table. I'll post to the
                      list to let you know when I have more information. The problems you're
                      experiencing, though, appear to be from the platemaker and not the plate.

                      Re: Jessica's platemaking button problem. I'm sorry I didn't touch base with
                      you about this sooner. I remember calling you several months ago to let you
                      know that I may have found the possible problem, but I guess we never
                      touched base. Apparently, the powder-coating of the steel might have made
                      the opening for the vacuum switch too small. The extra pressure on the
                      switch causes problems in it working properly. You can file the opening to
                      be a little wider see if the switch works better.

                      Sorry not to be able to write sooner. I should be loading my trailer right
                      now for a press move...

                      Harold

                      Boxcar Press
                      Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                      Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                      315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Harold My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo. Neither Jet or Toyobo are what I would consider top grade plates. But they are
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Harold

                        My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo.
                        Neither Jet or Toyobo are what I would consider top grade plates. But
                        they are both adequate for most letterpress applications. I've run my
                        own comparison tests of these particular brands as well and my suspicion
                        is that these differing plates need differing exposure and washout times
                        to provide optimum detail and subsurface strength, so it is essentially
                        misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
                        you suggest.

                        But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
                        impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
                        photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or relief
                        depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is self
                        evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence of
                        increased impression with the letterpress process. If folks need deep
                        impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
                        photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a technical
                        reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
                        regard to letterpress formulated plates.

                        Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
                        surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?

                        Gerald
                        Good luck with the press move.



                        Harold Kyle wrote:

                        >On 6/3/05 1:22 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don't know if this is the culprit or
                        >>not. I'd recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might also
                        >>think about switching to a higher grade plate brand.
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >Well you finally stirred me to write with this comment!
                        >
                        >Re: "softness". The hardness of the 94FL is 62 shore D so I think you'd have
                        >a hard time seeing the difference between it and your recommended range of
                        >65-70. The difference is insubstantial. Also, should you want a harder
                        >plate, Jet makes a 94HFL that has 80 shore D. We at Boxcar Press have a job
                        >shop running the popular "deep impression" printing exclusively from the
                        >94FL. The plate's printing shows no evidence of "softness".
                        >
                        >Re: "Higher grade plate", Gerald, your opinion of Jet 94FL plates are of
                        >less quality will not be borne out in a side to side test of the material. A
                        >rep selling Toyobo Printight visited Boxcar Press' shop earlier this week
                        >and we proofed a test plate of Printight KF95 next to the Jet 94FL material.
                        >The Jet plate showed more detail and, at the same time, exhibited less gain;
                        >this is with a rep selling Printight monitoring the processing. After
                        >extensive testing, I've come to conclude that the only plate that gives the
                        >94FL a run for the money is the BASF WH95. The cost difference between these
                        >plates makes the 94FL much more desirable option. I would be happy, by the
                        >way, to scan a proof of the side-by-side comparison of Printight and Jet
                        >plates when I get a chance.
                        >
                        >Re: Jessica's platemaking "plaid" problem. I'm problem solving this with the
                        >manufacturer of the machine, who apparently can furnish a vacuum table
                        >adaptor to make the grooves less noticeable. I want to get more information
                        >before I promise you that this is possible. Apparently, the adaptor is a
                        >"diamond-plate" material that sits in the vacuum table. I'll post to the
                        >list to let you know when I have more information. The problems you're
                        >experiencing, though, appear to be from the platemaker and not the plate.
                        >
                        >Re: Jessica's platemaking button problem. I'm sorry I didn't touch base with
                        >you about this sooner. I remember calling you several months ago to let you
                        >know that I may have found the possible problem, but I guess we never
                        >touched base. Apparently, the powder-coating of the steel might have made
                        >the opening for the vacuum switch too small. The extra pressure on the
                        >switch causes problems in it working properly. You can file the opening to
                        >be a little wider see if the switch works better.
                        >
                        >Sorry not to be able to write sooner. I should be loading my trailer right
                        >now for a press move...
                        >
                        >Harold
                        >
                        >Boxcar Press
                        >Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                        >Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                        >315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                      • David Wall
                        ... Oh come on . . . I haven t been following this thread up until now, so maybe I ve missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney. I consider
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          > But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
                          > impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
                          > photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or relief
                          > depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is
                          > self
                          > evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence
                          > of
                          > increased impression with the letterpress process.  If folks need deep
                          > impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
                          > photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a
                          > technical
                          > reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
                          > regard to letterpress formulated plates.

                          Oh come on . . . I haven't been following this thread up until now, so
                          maybe I've missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney.
                          I consider myself an appropriately seasoned printer and I've never
                          found "splay" to be of any more consequence with photopolymer than it
                          is with metal type---which is to say, no consequence at all. If we were
                          using plates similar in durometer to hard rubber stamps I can see where
                          it would be a factor, but I highly doubt that any splay in the plates
                          that any of us use would be noticeable unless you were either
                          deliberately abusing the plate---by which I don't mean simply "deep
                          impression"---or you were somehow measuring in microns---in which case
                          ink squeeze and the amount of ink on the rollers would obliterate any
                          reliable evidence of splay. Perhaps this phenomenon is a factor in
                          flexo printing of screened images in cases where precise color matching
                          of prepress proofs and original artwork is important, but it certainly
                          doesn't play any significant role in letterpress printing from polymer
                          plates.

                          Dave

                          ________________
                          David P. Wall
                          The Applecart Press, LLC
                          14 Maine Street, Box 43
                          Brunswick, ME 04011
                          Tel. 207-373-1690
                          Fax 207-373-1691
                          www.applecartpress.com
                        • Gerald Lange
                          David This kind of surprises me. I guess I ll have to respectively disagree. There are techical reports I could dig up concerning quantitative compression and
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            David

                            This kind of surprises me. I guess I'll have to respectively disagree.

                            There are techical reports I could dig up concerning quantitative
                            compression and pressure measures of photopolymer plates which I would
                            assume have more weight than "our" experiential wisdom or ad hoc
                            tests, but clearly, what a waste of effort that would be.

                            Gerald


                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, David Wall <applecartpress@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > > But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
                            > > impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
                            > > photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or
                            relief
                            > > depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is
                            > > self
                            > > evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence
                            > > of
                            > > increased impression with the letterpress process. If folks need
                            deep
                            > > impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
                            > > photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a
                            > > technical
                            > > reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
                            > > regard to letterpress formulated plates.
                            >
                            > Oh come on . . . I haven't been following this thread up until now, so
                            > maybe I've missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney.
                            > I consider myself an appropriately seasoned printer and I've never
                            > found "splay" to be of any more consequence with photopolymer than it
                            > is with metal type---which is to say, no consequence at all. If we were
                            > using plates similar in durometer to hard rubber stamps I can see where
                            > it would be a factor, but I highly doubt that any splay in the plates
                            > that any of us use would be noticeable unless you were either
                            > deliberately abusing the plate---by which I don't mean simply "deep
                            > impression"---or you were somehow measuring in microns---in which case
                            > ink squeeze and the amount of ink on the rollers would obliterate any
                            > reliable evidence of splay. Perhaps this phenomenon is a factor in
                            > flexo printing of screened images in cases where precise color matching
                            > of prepress proofs and original artwork is important, but it certainly
                            > doesn't play any significant role in letterpress printing from polymer
                            > plates.
                            >
                            > Dave
                            >
                            > ________________
                            > David P. Wall
                            > The Applecart Press, LLC
                            > 14 Maine Street, Box 43
                            > Brunswick, ME 04011
                            > Tel. 207-373-1690
                            > Fax 207-373-1691
                            > www.applecartpress.com
                          • Harold Kyle
                            ... I m sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a higher grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of the line? ...
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 6/3/05 5:45 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                              > My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo.
                              I'm sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a higher
                              grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of the line?

                              > so it is essentially
                              > misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
                              > you suggest.
                              The test I did showed that the Printight plate gained more with less detail.
                              To get more detail I would have had to increase exposure, causing more gain.
                              I relied on the rep selling Printight to dial in the right numbers. But I
                              agree that this is a slippery issue, and best left up to the printer's
                              judgement. I'm stating my personal preference and standing up for it based
                              on tests I've done. The differences between brands are minimal but when I
                              print I have the attitude: "I need all the help I can get." I really wish I
                              could afford BASF plates, and I might consider using them more if they
                              didn't smell so much!

                              > Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
                              > surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?
                              We sell Printight plates alongside Jet and BASF plates, so we're very
                              familiar with the Printight brand in relation to the competition. We prefer
                              them for intaglio processing. The pricing is comparable with Jet plates, so
                              yes I would be tempted to switch brands if I felt the plates were equally
                              sharp on the letterpress. The Printight salesman hasn't given up--we may be
                              troubleshooting the gain issues soon. For now, I'm sticking with the plates
                              that I know are going to give the best results.

                              I'll be back on Monday! The trailer's loaded up and ready to go.

                              Harold


                              Boxcar Press
                              Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                              Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                              315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                            • LA. Book Arts
                              All, the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn t seem to have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing if she has
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                All,

                                the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn't seem to
                                have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing
                                if she has enough or what.
                                The exposing of a plate with Film is a very critical stage of
                                platemaking, a good vacuum, a good piece of Film and it's smooth
                                sailing. I just made 65 9.5 x13 inch plates (WH 94) for a book project
                                the other day.
                                If you have no way of measuring your action it is very difficult to
                                repeat it over and over.

                                charles


                                www.custombindery.com
                              • Gerald Lange
                                Harold I actually prefer the BASF, especially for halftones or very fine detail though I am not sure I have quite figured out the correct washout for them as
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Harold

                                  I actually prefer the BASF, especially for halftones or very fine
                                  detail though I am not sure I have quite figured out the correct
                                  washout for them as they never seem finished to me. The surface
                                  texture is ideal, but yes, they do stink and crud up the bath. I like
                                  plates that indicate by color, surface and subsurface, which both the
                                  BASF and the Toyobo do. For some reason I think it helps clarify
                                  things for me.

                                  There are probably a lot better plates out there, BASF is getting to
                                  be rather old technology I'd think (maybe that's not bad though).
                                  Would appreciate any info you discover in this regard.

                                  You might like this: When I first started buying photopolymer plates I
                                  went to visit my processor and discovered a completely different plate
                                  on his press (a BASF). I asked him why he didn't sell those to his
                                  clients. He didn't miss a beat, "Because my customers are too f***ing
                                  cheap."

                                  At any rate, I keep profiles on clients as to their needs and
                                  expectations and often process plates based on various formulas I have
                                  used. I think the Toyobos require much less exposure and much more
                                  washout (than the reps tell you) to get to finer detail and better
                                  substructure. I've run Jets at the same formula and they are not quite
                                  there. So I assume they have their own configuration. But I don't use
                                  them or sell them so don't know what that would be.

                                  Once again, good luck with the move.

                                  Gerald

                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@b...> wrote:
                                  > On 6/3/05 5:45 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...> wrote:
                                  > > My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with
                                  Toyobo.
                                  > I'm sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a
                                  higher
                                  > grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of
                                  the line?
                                  >
                                  > > so it is essentially
                                  > > misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
                                  > > you suggest.
                                  > The test I did showed that the Printight plate gained more with less
                                  detail.
                                  > To get more detail I would have had to increase exposure, causing
                                  more gain.
                                  > I relied on the rep selling Printight to dial in the right numbers.
                                  But I
                                  > agree that this is a slippery issue, and best left up to the printer's
                                  > judgement. I'm stating my personal preference and standing up for it
                                  based
                                  > on tests I've done. The differences between brands are minimal but
                                  when I
                                  > print I have the attitude: "I need all the help I can get." I really
                                  wish I
                                  > could afford BASF plates, and I might consider using them more if they
                                  > didn't smell so much!
                                  >
                                  > > Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
                                  > > surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?
                                  > We sell Printight plates alongside Jet and BASF plates, so we're very
                                  > familiar with the Printight brand in relation to the competition. We
                                  prefer
                                  > them for intaglio processing. The pricing is comparable with Jet
                                  plates, so
                                  > yes I would be tempted to switch brands if I felt the plates were
                                  equally
                                  > sharp on the letterpress. The Printight salesman hasn't given up--we
                                  may be
                                  > troubleshooting the gain issues soon. For now, I'm sticking with the
                                  plates
                                  > that I know are going to give the best results.
                                  >
                                  > I'll be back on Monday! The trailer's loaded up and ready to go.
                                  >
                                  > Harold
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Boxcar Press
                                  > Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                                  > Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                                  > 315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                                • Gerald Lange
                                  Hi Charles No vacuum gauge? How did you find that out? Geez, this was all sort of a big waste of time then wasn t it? If it does nothing else, a gauge will
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Charles

                                    No vacuum gauge? How did you find that out?

                                    Geez, this was all sort of a big waste of time then wasn't it? If it
                                    does nothing else, a gauge will tell you when vacuum is iffy, and, if
                                    it reveals release during exposure, your plate/s just went south. Kind
                                    of an important feature.

                                    Gerald


                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, LA. Book Arts <livres@a...> wrote:
                                    > All,
                                    >
                                    > the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn't seem to
                                    > have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing
                                    > if she has enough or what.
                                    > The exposing of a plate with Film is a very critical stage of
                                    > platemaking, a good vacuum, a good piece of Film and it's smooth
                                    > sailing. I just made 65 9.5 x13 inch plates (WH 94) for a book project
                                    > the other day.
                                    > If you have no way of measuring your action it is very difficult to
                                    > repeat it over and over.
                                    >
                                    > charles
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > www.custombindery.com
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.