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Binding, Boxing &c. (Was "Packaging" the product)

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  • Paul W Romaine
    I started a thread (which didn t go too far) on how we package books and pamphlets. Specifically, I referred to additional wrappers and even artwork added as
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 3, 2005
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      I started a thread (which didn't go too far) on how we "package" books
      and pamphlets. Specifically, I referred to additional wrappers and
      even artwork added as covering to otherwise complete publications.

      Perhaps it might be more useful to talk about how complicated or
      simple "packaging" can be. For example:

      * Wraps. Kelly-Winterton Press (New York, now Pomona, NY) uses a lot
      of Fabriano paper for wraps and board covers; it's beautiful, but I
      have noticed that it doesn't stand-up well to wear or smudges. There
      are plenty of other choice of materials. Nadja (New York, now
      Kripplebush) has one pamphlet (To paint, by Dorothea Tanning, 1995)
      bound in "painters' canvas wrappers."

      * Wooden clamshell box. Angelica Press (New York) in the 1980s issued
      a handsome folio-size portfolio of wood type specimens, with an
      interesting manual on printing with wood type (a friend has been
      looking into reprint rights). All this was housed in a wooden box,
      with a simple clasp.

      * Sleeve & Wooden box. The Press at Colorado College issued in 1987 an
      accordion-style portfolio ("Color for Letterpress") housed in a white
      acrylic folder-sleeve (open on three sides, approx. 1/8" thickness),
      which in-turn was housed in a stained red-oak box. (My thought, on
      seeing it, was "overkill." Yet the printer James Trissel was sensitive
      to the book's display possibilities: "The book is accordion-bound to
      permit an easy display of the plates.")

      * Bag. An exhibition booklet, "Early twentieth century commercial wood
      engraving," about the Grammlee collection of 19th C wood type and
      stock blocks from a West Virginia printer of flour bags was enclosed
      in printed bag. (The bag has begun to stain the booklet.)

      * "Tram" style box. The 2000 Oxford Guild of Printers issued a box of
      26 folders and booklets, with each printer "giving the story of their
      printing lives and experiences." The sliding box has a complicated
      system of cords which, upon opening the sliding box, causes the 26
      folders and booklets to pop-up. Graham Moss has written me privately
      about this box--perhaps he'll report here. (I thought the box charming
      but rather Rube Goldberg-esque: Goldberg, a mid-20th C American
      cartoonist, created inanely complicated devices to accomplish simple
      tasks http://www.rube-goldberg.com/)

      Obviously, I'm picking elaborate examples, but these were memorable,
      sometimes for the wrong reasons!

      What have you used to cover or protect pamphlets and books? Do you as
      the printer emphasize sturdy or beautiful, or simple or complicated?
      Have you regretted making something too simple or too complicated?

      Paul
      Paul W. Romaine
      romaine@...
      http://home.pipeline.com/~romaine
    • Silver MayKitten
      Except for four titles, our packiaging of books is pretty mundaine, considering that we are a publisher of school books and forms. In general, hardbound books
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 3, 2005
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        Except for four titles, our packiaging of books is pretty
        mundaine, considering that we are a publisher of school books
        and forms.

        In general, hardbound books may have a printed dust jacket and
        are indivudualy shrink wraped.

        In general all perfect bound books are five pounds or less per
        shrink wrap or upto 6 copies. (And must be ordered in
        multiples.)

        Mechanicly bound books (Plastic comb or coil, Dual-loop wiire;)
        are shrink wraped also, depending on thickness and quantity
        ordered.

        Forms -- 2" thickness per shrink wrap, an appropriate number of
        pads or sets per package.

        As I said four titles are handled differently:

        Food and Cooking Vademecum -- 10 pounds net weight.

        A Baker's Vademecum -- 8 pounds net weight.

        Foodservice Proceedures -- 11 pounds net weight.

        HAACP Theory, Regulations and Practice For School Foodservice
        -- 3 pounds net weight. (The title weighs more than the book.)

        These books are printed on 50 pound supercalenderised paper,
        the first two with many full colour pages and the last two
        printed in two colours, (black and red.) They are machine sewn
        and case bound.

        For packaging, of these titles only, the dust jacket is silk
        screened in four spot colours: black, two shades of brown and
        ochre, on the coated surface of 60 pound PPC1SBK (Poly
        Propylene Coated 1 Side Bleached Kraft - read that as plastic
        coated freezer paper, that is a pun folks.) individually shrink
        wrapped and singularly boxed in custom made and printed 125
        pound test bleached corrigated shippers.

        MayKitten
        --- Paul W Romaine <romaine@...> wrote:
        >
        > I started a thread (which didn't go too far) on how we
        > "package" books
        > and pamphlets. Specifically, I referred to additional
        > wrappers and
        > even artwork added as covering to otherwise complete
        > publications.
        >
        > Perhaps it might be more useful to talk about how complicated
        > or
        > simple "packaging" can be. For example:
        >
        > * Wraps. Kelly-Winterton Press (New York, now Pomona, NY)
        > uses a lot
        > of Fabriano paper for wraps and board covers; it's beautiful,
        > but I
        > have noticed that it doesn't stand-up well to wear or
        > smudges. There
        > are plenty of other choice of materials. Nadja (New York, now
        > Kripplebush) has one pamphlet (To paint, by Dorothea Tanning,
        > 1995)
        > bound in "painters' canvas wrappers."
        >
        > * Wooden clamshell box. Angelica Press (New York) in the
        > 1980s issued
        > a handsome folio-size portfolio of wood type specimens, with
        > an
        > interesting manual on printing with wood type (a friend has
        > been
        > looking into reprint rights). All this was housed in a wooden
        > box,
        > with a simple clasp.
        >
        > * Sleeve & Wooden box. The Press at Colorado College issued
        > in 1987 an
        > accordion-style portfolio ("Color for Letterpress") housed in
        > a white
        > acrylic folder-sleeve (open on three sides, approx. 1/8"
        > thickness),
        > which in-turn was housed in a stained red-oak box. (My
        > thought, on
        > seeing it, was "overkill." Yet the printer James Trissel was
        > sensitive
        > to the book's display possibilities: "The book is
        > accordion-bound to
        > permit an easy display of the plates.")
        >
        > * Bag. An exhibition booklet, "Early twentieth century
        > commercial wood
        > engraving," about the Grammlee collection of 19th C wood type
        > and
        > stock blocks from a West Virginia printer of flour bags was
        > enclosed
        > in printed bag. (The bag has begun to stain the booklet.)
        >
        > * "Tram" style box. The 2000 Oxford Guild of Printers issued
        > a box of
        > 26 folders and booklets, with each printer "giving the story
        > of their
        > printing lives and experiences." The sliding box has a
        > complicated
        > system of cords which, upon opening the sliding box, causes
        > the 26
        > folders and booklets to pop-up. Graham Moss has written me
        > privately
        > about this box--perhaps he'll report here. (I thought the box
        > charming
        > but rather Rube Goldberg-esque: Goldberg, a mid-20th C
        > American
        > cartoonist, created inanely complicated devices to accomplish
        > simple
        > tasks http://www.rube-goldberg.com/)
        >
        > Obviously, I'm picking elaborate examples, but these were
        > memorable,
        > sometimes for the wrong reasons!
        >
        > What have you used to cover or protect pamphlets and books?
        > Do you as
        > the printer emphasize sturdy or beautiful, or simple or
        > complicated?
        > Have you regretted making something too simple or too
        > complicated?
        >
        > Paul
        > Paul W. Romaine
        > romaine@...
        > http://home.pipeline.com/~romaine
        >
        >
        >
        >

        Pagan, Pagan, what are you finding?
        Yours is the road that winds lonely and far,
        Strange are the shadows that round you come creeping,
        Still through the clouds is the glint of a star!

        From the book, Charge of the Goddess
        BY: Doreen Valiente



        __________________________________
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        Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
        http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
      • Paul W Romaine
        I d like to add a few more examples. * Aluminum bindings... * Unusual book box structures, such as the Hedi Kyle binding for the new Bringhurst poem being
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 3, 2005
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          I'd like to add a few more examples.

          * Aluminum bindings...

          * Unusual book box structures, such as the Hedi Kyle binding for the
          new Bringhurst poem being published by the Center for Book Arts, which
          folds-out into three performance stands so that the poem can be read
          aloud by three separate performers. It's admirable, but I couldn't
          figure it out (Eeven after Richard Minsky demonstrated its elegant
          simplicity for me, but I'm smarter with words than structures.

          * An accordion-style (not the right term) binding by Amos Kennedy,
          used for his African-American riddle book, which required you to
          "wiggle" (riddle?) the book constantly back and forth at 45 to 90
          degree angles, as you read your way through a series of riddles and
          answers. This isn't quite "packaging," but Amos had to create a small
          book with two boards that would open appropriately. The book was
          created from a small number of sheets which he printed (Goudy OS, if
          memory serves) and then cut-up to create the wiggle structure. Like
          one of those old paper lanterns that collapses to a disk.

          Paul
        • John Cornelisse
          ... Dear Paul, This is endless, I ve some books one of them: isbn 90 76452 63 6 Western Binding techniques from Middle ages to the present, Peter Goddijn in
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 3, 2005
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            At 05:10 04-04-2005, you wrote:

            >I'd like to add a few more examples.
            >
            >* Aluminum bindings...
            >
            >* Unusual book box structures, such as the Hedi Kyle binding for the
            >new Bringhurst poem being published by the Center for Book Arts, which
            >folds-out into three performance stands so that the poem can be read
            >aloud by three separate performers. It's admirable, but I couldn't
            >figure it out (Eeven after Richard Minsky demonstrated its elegant
            >simplicity for me, but I'm smarter with words than structures.


            Dear Paul,

            This is endless,

            I've some books one of them: isbn 90 76452 63 6
            Western Binding techniques from Middle ages to the present, Peter Goddijn
            in it some 16 different techniques, that you could combine in various ways
            too. Plus the different ways to decorate the cutted sides of the book....

            This is only one book.

            Ever heard of "Bradel", a french bookbinder 18-19th century
            he had some special techniques too.

            Presently bookbinders combine all kind of modern materials
            and make all kind of experiments with bookbindings.

            I would not try to name them all.

            There are discussion list on the internet on binding for sure.

            Best wishes

            John Cornelisse



            Letter-press & Typefounding, Monotype-composition

            Vaartstraat 23
            4553 AN Philippine
            (Zeeuws Vlaanderen)
            The Netherlands
            + 31 - (0) 115 - 491184
            email: enkidu@...

            So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
            he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gerald Lange
            Hi Paul Well, usually it is whatever the book demands. And what I can afford in the way of binding. The latter is actually a very important consideration here.
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 4, 2005
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              Hi Paul

              Well, usually it is whatever the book demands. And what I can afford
              in the way of binding. The latter is actually a very important
              consideration here. If you do an edition of 150 books and the binding
              cost is $100 per unit you are looking at a considerable outlay of
              dough-re-me. Binding is actually a signicant production expense,
              especially considering that the market for fine press books is not in
              any way what it used to be. I can easily see why most folks entering
              letterpress are not at all interested in doing books.

              Folks who produce books out of passion should probably not be taken to
              task for their efforts. Fragile, sturdy, simple, complicated.
              Hopefully appropriate.

              I currently have a book in production, well; it has been for some
              years now, on Moxon. I proposed to a very "innovative" and highly
              collectible fine press printer-publisher that I issue this, as Moxon
              would have, unbound in wraps. She freaked out. Apparently you can't do
              that. The collectors won't have it.$o much for "innovation." I'll
              probably do it the way I feel like anyway.

              I know this is of concern to you from a librarian's point of view but
              essentially if one is artistically constructing the book, it will
              stand on its own, or not. And that should be respected. If it is meant
              to go the way of all things, so be it. If it is supposed to stand with
              the cockroaches at the very end, well then, make it for them, and
              hopefully they will have learned to alter their "taste" in things by then.

              Gerald

              > What have you used to cover or protect pamphlets and books? Do you as
              > the printer emphasize sturdy or beautiful, or simple or complicated?
              > Have you regretted making something too simple or too complicated?
              >
              > Paul
              > Paul W. Romaine
              > romaine@p...
              > http://home.pipeline.com/~romaine
            • Paul W Romaine
              John: I ve purposely wanted to avoid bringing up the question with binding discussion groups, where this topic (and similar ones) has been discussed on many
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 4, 2005
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                John: I've purposely wanted to avoid bringing up the question with
                binding discussion groups, where this topic (and similar ones) has
                been discussed on many occasions. Most fine press printers will do
                some of their own "finishing" (which may include aspects of binding,
                such as pamphlet binding, but may include other activities). However,
                most printers need an outside person or firm to do edition binding and
                boxes, thus cost (as Gerald points out) becomes a practical issue in
                presentation. I raise the question on a listserv dedicated to people
                producing the innards of books and pamphlets because I'm less
                interested in the engineering marvels that one might find from
                binders. (I don't mean to disparage their work!)

                Gerald: historical verisimilitude of presentation has much to
                recommend it, and while Moxon would not have made a box or portfolio,
                printers sometimes have to make compromises to later taste or
                expectations or tradition. You could just charge extra for anyone
                unwilling to be historically accurate. :-)

                >Folks who produce books out of passion should probably not be taken
                to task for their efforts. Fragile, sturdy, simple, complicated.
                Hopefully appropriate.<

                I hope that the thoughtful collector (whether institutional or not)
                will look beyond the "packaging" when buying. But practical issues of
                things like shelving (so the book can be found) or fragility (adding
                to the cost of ownership) are also important. Unfortunately these
                sorts of issues sometimes "wag the dog" when it comes to collecting
                and buying.

                Jessica privately wrote me "There's a tricky line out there between
                gimmicks (pop-ups, wacky bindings, etc.) and structures that work well
                with content." I think here again, that word "appropriate" seems quite
                important. The best designs reinforce the text and its underlying
                meaning, but since you're not a gentleman of leisure running a
                hobbyist press, you need to take into consideration "market" issues.
                The best choices have good reasons, such as Trissel's decision to
                issue his book in unbound sections, printed single-sided (but I still
                wonder about the acrylic chemise--which, since I remember it, IS an
                interesting marketing device ;-) )....

                Paul
              • Gerald Lange
                Paul Yes, as you, I would like to hear more from fine press printer-publishers as well on this topic. But as we both well know, they don t participate. Which
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 4, 2005
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                  Paul

                  Yes, as you, I would like to hear more from fine press printer-publishers as well on this topic. But as we both well know, they don't participate. Which just drives us all back further and further.

                  Re: Moxon. Well, unfortunately "they" were wrapped in something, so... I guess I need to print a wrapper of sorts and a nice label. But I've
                  never had a customer complain about any particular binding even though
                  I have issued books that quite needed better preservation support. The
                  early printer-publishers kind of left that to the buyer. Doesn't sit well today so much but it's not exactly like a collector is going to pay any additional for the effort. Lucky enough if they buy the book.

                  But, one of the very irritating things about what the fine press has
                  been driven too is the marketing. And it verges on desperation. I don't in anyway discount that this has always been the case ever
                  since Wm Morris sort of invented the concept. I note that early
                  twentieth century fine presses regularly "over-subscribed" their
                  publications. How did that exactly work?

                  There is a point where a book does not warrant the binding it is given, especially if the binding is more designed as a marketing tool
                  rather than to enhance the book concept. Which seems to more and more
                  the example.

                  On the other hand, there just aren't as many fine press book
                  printer-puiblishers around anymore, and whatever is coming out, hey,
                  give em grace for the effort. That, or we will all be driven to
                  printing wedding invites, pounded hard (like "real" letterpress), until that fad goes away.

                  Gerald


                  >
                  > John: I've purposely wanted to avoid bringing up the question with
                  > binding discussion groups, where this topic (and similar ones) has
                  > been discussed on many occasions. Most fine press printers will do
                  > some of their own "finishing" (which may include aspects of binding,
                  > such as pamphlet binding, but may include other activities). However,
                  > most printers need an outside person or firm to do edition binding and
                  > boxes, thus cost (as Gerald points out) becomes a practical issue in
                  > presentation. I raise the question on a listserv dedicated to people
                  > producing the innards of books and pamphlets because I'm less
                  > interested in the engineering marvels that one might find from
                  > binders. (I don't mean to disparage their work!)
                  >
                  > Gerald: historical verisimilitude of presentation has much to
                  > recommend it, and while Moxon would not have made a box or portfolio,
                  > printers sometimes have to make compromises to later taste or
                  > expectations or tradition. You could just charge extra for anyone
                  > unwilling to be historically accurate. :-)
                  >
                  > >Folks who produce books out of passion should probably not be taken
                  > to task for their efforts. Fragile, sturdy, simple, complicated.
                  > Hopefully appropriate.<
                  >
                  > I hope that the thoughtful collector (whether institutional or not)
                  > will look beyond the "packaging" when buying. But practical issues of
                  > things like shelving (so the book can be found) or fragility (adding
                  > to the cost of ownership) are also important. Unfortunately these
                  > sorts of issues sometimes "wag the dog" when it comes to collecting
                  > and buying.
                  >
                  > Jessica privately wrote me "There's a tricky line out there between
                  > gimmicks (pop-ups, wacky bindings, etc.) and structures that work well
                  > with content." I think here again, that word "appropriate" seems quite
                  > important. The best designs reinforce the text and its underlying
                  > meaning, but since you're not a gentleman of leisure running a
                  > hobbyist press, you need to take into consideration "market" issues.
                  > The best choices have good reasons, such as Trissel's decision to
                  > issue his book in unbound sections, printed single-sided (but I still
                  > wonder about the acrylic chemise--which, since I remember it, IS an
                  > interesting marketing device ;-) )....
                  >
                  > Paul
                • LA. Book Arts
                  Well, as Gerald points it out so nicely -it gets harder and harder to rectify the effort of printing books on the handpress and being able to at least get paid
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 4, 2005
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                    Well,

                    as Gerald points it out so nicely -it gets harder and harder to rectify
                    the effort of printing books on the handpress and being able to at
                    least get paid for it.

                    I get more inclined to cut an inquiry off in the moment I catch someone
                    as today who asked me to print a 60 page book in 100 copies on my
                    handpress, with 5 etching, the paper is Lana laid.
                    The first issue the person raised what why should she also have to pay
                    money for the etchings if it costs more than printing letterpress per
                    sheet and the binding should be only cost around 25 each, as she has a
                    another person who can print the book and bind it for less.

                    Well, honey go for it.

                    If you looked at the website of parnassia.org, that is what I used to
                    do:

                    cast Monotype and keep Foundries busy, print on my Amos dell' Orto
                    Albion, and bind the books by hand.

                    And no -I don't do pamphlet and coptic and all this stuff, I have been
                    proper trained at the bench and gained my Masterdegree and make proper
                    Full Leather and Parchment bindings.

                    I recently had a talk with an eminent binder who lamented the fact,
                    that after having amassed a huge collection of hand finishing tools,
                    this are the fancy handengraved brass tools which create a pattern in
                    goldleaf on Leather, and than there is hardly a call for it.
                    Duh, I have a similliar collection in my shop, everybody wants it and
                    than we talk about Labor cost, suddenly it's good enough to have a
                    magnesium plate made and stamp it.
                    I still print on the handpress, instead of a lot of type I make a
                    polymerplate, still print etchings and run a full time bindery. Alas
                    the people I print for a very careful screened. They have to understand
                    upfront how much that cost and being able to pay for it.

                    But overall there are still a few who collect fine printing anf have
                    the Taste and Education for it.
                    But as the market is now so diluted and people don't understand that a
                    coptic binding is not a structure which makes any sense in the western
                    civilized world , the few remaining fine printers still have a few
                    clients, but nothing really new is coming up.

                    Packaging has only so much to do with it, as a qualified Master
                    craftsman I can do whatever in any direction, as long as a printed
                    sheet on handmade damped paper has to compete with an altered
                    xeroxcopy, you are on the loosing end.

                    And by the time theese "Printers"" realize they need more knowledge -
                    we will be gone.
                    charles




                    ------------------------------------
                    L.A Book Arts, Inc.
                    The Custom Bindery
                    Krause Intaglio
                    310.360.7265
                    www.Custombindery.com
                    ------------------------------------
                    On Apr 4, 2005, at 9:56 PM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Paul
                    >
                    > Yes, as you, I would like to hear more from fine press
                    > printer-publishers as well on this topic. But as we both well know,
                    > they don't participate. Which just drives us all back further and
                    > further.
                    >
                    > Re: Moxon. Well, unfortunately "they" were wrapped in something, so...
                    > I guess I need to print a wrapper of sorts and a nice label. But I've
                    > never had a customer complain about any particular binding even though
                    > I have issued books that quite needed better preservation support. The
                    > early printer-publishers kind of left that to the buyer. Doesn't sit
                    > well today so much but it's not exactly like a collector is going to
                    > pay any additional for the effort. Lucky enough if they buy the book.
                    >
                    > But, one of the very irritating things about what the fine press has
                    > been driven too is the marketing. And it verges on desperation. I
                    > don't in anyway discount that this has always been the case ever
                    > since Wm Morris sort of invented the concept. I note that early
                    > twentieth century fine presses regularly "over-subscribed" their
                    > publications. How did that exactly work?
                    >
                    > There is a point where a book does not warrant the binding it is
                    > given, especially if the binding is more designed as a marketing tool
                    > rather than to enhance the book concept. Which seems to more and more
                    > the example.
                    >
                    > On the other hand, there just aren't as many fine press book
                    > printer-puiblishers around anymore, and whatever is coming out, hey,
                    > give em grace for the effort. That, or we will all be driven to
                    > printing wedding invites, pounded hard (like "real" letterpress),
                    > until that fad goes away.
                    >
                    > Gerald
                    >
                    >
                    >>
                    >> John: I've purposely wanted to avoid bringing up the question with
                    >> binding discussion groups, where this topic (and similar ones) has
                    >> been discussed on many occasions. Most fine press printers will do
                    >> some of their own "finishing" (which may include aspects of binding,
                    >> such as pamphlet binding, but may include other activities). However,
                    >> most printers need an outside person or firm to do edition binding and
                    >> boxes, thus cost (as Gerald points out) becomes a practical issue in
                    >> presentation. I raise the question on a listserv dedicated to people
                    >> producing the innards of books and pamphlets because I'm less
                    >> interested in the engineering marvels that one might find from
                    >> binders. (I don't mean to disparage their work!)
                    >>
                    >> Gerald: historical verisimilitude of presentation has much to
                    >> recommend it, and while Moxon would not have made a box or portfolio,
                    >> printers sometimes have to make compromises to later taste or
                    >> expectations or tradition. You could just charge extra for anyone
                    >> unwilling to be historically accurate. :-)
                    >>
                    >>> Folks who produce books out of passion should probably not be taken
                    >> to task for their efforts. Fragile, sturdy, simple, complicated.
                    >> Hopefully appropriate.<
                    >>
                    >> I hope that the thoughtful collector (whether institutional or not)
                    >> will look beyond the "packaging" when buying. But practical issues of
                    >> things like shelving (so the book can be found) or fragility (adding
                    >> to the cost of ownership) are also important. Unfortunately these
                    >> sorts of issues sometimes "wag the dog" when it comes to collecting
                    >> and buying.
                    >>
                    >> Jessica privately wrote me "There's a tricky line out there between
                    >> gimmicks (pop-ups, wacky bindings, etc.) and structures that work well
                    >> with content." I think here again, that word "appropriate" seems quite
                    >> important. The best designs reinforce the text and its underlying
                    >> meaning, but since you're not a gentleman of leisure running a
                    >> hobbyist press, you need to take into consideration "market" issues.
                    >> The best choices have good reasons, such as Trissel's decision to
                    >> issue his book in unbound sections, printed single-sided (but I still
                    >> wonder about the acrylic chemise--which, since I remember it, IS an
                    >> interesting marketing device ;-) )....
                    >>
                    >> Paul
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jessica Spring
                    I m working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules. The first attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum problem. I
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
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                      I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules. The first
                      attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum problem.
                      I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but visible
                      "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
                      suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
                      Thanks,
                      Jessica
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Jessica I m surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model? Gerald ... The first ... problem.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
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                        Jessica

                        I'm surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a
                        platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model?

                        Gerald


                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
                        wrote:
                        > I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules.
                        The first
                        > attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum
                        problem.
                        > I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but
                        visible
                        > "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
                        > suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
                        > Thanks,
                        > Jessica
                      • Jessica Spring
                        It s a Polimero Interflex A4.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
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                          It's a Polimero Interflex A4.

                          > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
                          > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:54:43 -0000
                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
                          >
                          > Jessica
                          >
                          > I'm surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a
                          > platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model?
                          >
                          > Gerald
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
                          > wrote:
                          >> I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules.
                          > The first
                          >> attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum
                          > problem.
                          >> I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but
                          > visible
                          >> "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
                          >> suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
                          >> Thanks,
                          >> Jessica
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Jessica Does this model have the kreene attached to a steel rod that you roll down? I ve found that vacuum is much more secure without the steel rod. I cut a
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
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                            Jessica

                            Does this model have the kreene attached to a steel rod that you roll
                            down? I've found that vacuum is much more secure without the steel
                            rod. I cut a sheet to fit the vacuum table and leave it at that. Seems
                            to prevent any vacuum problems.

                            But I really don't understand how the vacuum could pull down the
                            kreene stronger in one area of the plate than another. Or how that
                            would leave "plaid marks" on the plate itself. Especially, I guess, as
                            there is a film negative between the kreene and the plate.

                            Next question toward a solution I suspect is what type of film and
                            plate are you using? Or, are you sure this isn't an exposure or
                            washout problem? A low water level can cause the brushes to mark the
                            surface of a plate.

                            Gerald

                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
                            wrote:
                            > It's a Polimero Interflex A4.
                            >
                            > > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...>
                            > > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 03:54:43 -0000
                            > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
                            > >
                            > > Jessica
                            > >
                            > > I'm surprised to hear that there may be variance of vacuum in a
                            > > platemaking machine. What is the manufacturer/model?
                            > >
                            > > Gerald
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > >> I'm working on plates with a solid pattern filled with thin rules.
                            > > The first
                            > >> attempt worked fairly well except the far edges--obviously a vacuum
                            > > problem.
                            > >> I changed the kreene and it worked so well there is now a subtle but
                            > > visible
                            > >> "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced more suction. Anyone have any
                            > >> suggestions to get rid of the plaid?
                            > >> Thanks,
                            > >> Jessica
                            > >
                          • typetom@aol.com
                            ... more suction. I m guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum is sucking hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
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                              In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                              >there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines produced
                              more suction.


                              I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum is sucking
                              hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the negative, by
                              pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use steel-backed
                              plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support layer beneath the
                              plate material might solve the problem?

                              Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it wouldn't
                              show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if the lines
                              had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin rules
                              would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!


                              Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                              Tom

                              Tom Parson
                              Now It's Up To You Publications
                              157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                              (303) 777-8951
                              http://members.aol.com/typetom


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Gerald Lange
                              Tom Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the vacuum line. That
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 2, 2005
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                                Tom

                                Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of
                                these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the
                                vacuum line. That would sort of be a major engineering flaw. I process
                                both steel-backed and polyester-backed plates in my machine and I
                                can't imagine this to be the case. While polyester-backed plates are
                                certainly flexible (and a bit unnerving to those accustomed to
                                steel-backs), they are not flexible enough to be drawn down into that
                                thinly etched vacuum line, unless there is something wildly out of
                                wack with Jessica's vacuum pump!

                                Gerald


                                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@a... wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                                > >there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines
                                produced
                                > more suction.
                                >
                                >
                                > I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum
                                is sucking
                                > hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                                negative, by
                                > pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use
                                steel-backed
                                > plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support
                                layer beneath the
                                > plate material might solve the problem?
                                >
                                > Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it
                                wouldn't
                                > show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if
                                the lines
                                > had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin
                                rules
                                > would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!
                                >
                                >
                                > Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                                > Tom
                                >
                                > Tom Parson
                                > Now It's Up To You Publications
                                > 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                                > (303) 777-8951
                                > http://members.aol.com/typetom
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jessica Spring
                                Tom & Gerald-- The plates are 94FL. I do have the steel bar at the bottom, so I can try taking that off, and for comparison I can try a steel-backed plate. The
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                  Tom & Gerald--
                                  The plates are 94FL. I do have the steel bar at the bottom, so I can try
                                  taking that off, and for comparison I can try a steel-backed plate. The last
                                  bit of the mystery: my vacuum has a simple on-off switch and half the time
                                  the button won't stay on. I've replaced the button itself, but the problem
                                  remains, which Jet attributes to humidity. Hmmmm. I have to let it sort of
                                  warm up, then it stays on. As Charles suggested, I think the vacuum is a
                                  stinker (AKA "wildly out of whack") and this plate happens to reveal that in
                                  a way I hadn't seen consistently with type.

                                  Jessica

                                  > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
                                  > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:02:55 -0000
                                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
                                  >
                                  > Tom
                                  >
                                  > Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of
                                  > these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the
                                  > vacuum line. That would sort of be a major engineering flaw. I process
                                  > both steel-backed and polyester-backed plates in my machine and I
                                  > can't imagine this to be the case. While polyester-backed plates are
                                  > certainly flexible (and a bit unnerving to those accustomed to
                                  > steel-backs), they are not flexible enough to be drawn down into that
                                  > thinly etched vacuum line, unless there is something wildly out of
                                  > wack with Jessica's vacuum pump!
                                  >
                                  > Gerald
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@a... wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                                  >>> there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines
                                  > produced
                                  >> more suction.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum
                                  > is sucking
                                  >> hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                                  > negative, by
                                  >> pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use
                                  > steel-backed
                                  >> plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support
                                  > layer beneath the
                                  >> plate material might solve the problem?
                                  >>
                                  >> Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it
                                  > wouldn't
                                  >> show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if
                                  > the lines
                                  >> had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin
                                  > rules
                                  >> would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                                  >> Tom
                                  >>
                                  >> Tom Parson
                                  >> Now It's Up To You Publications
                                  >> 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                                  >> (303) 777-8951
                                  >> http://members.aol.com/typetom
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Gerald Lange
                                  Jessica 94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don t know if this is the culprit or not. I d recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                    Jessica

                                    94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don't know if this is the culprit or not. I'd recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might also think about switching to a higher grade plate brand.

                                    Gerald

                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring <springtide@i...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Tom & Gerald--
                                    > The plates are 94FL. I do have the steel bar at the bottom, so I can try
                                    > taking that off, and for comparison I can try a steel-backed plate.
                                    The last
                                    > bit of the mystery: my vacuum has a simple on-off switch and half
                                    the time
                                    > the button won't stay on. I've replaced the button itself, but the
                                    problem
                                    > remains, which Jet attributes to humidity. Hmmmm. I have to let it
                                    sort of
                                    > warm up, then it stays on. As Charles suggested, I think the vacuum is a
                                    > stinker (AKA "wildly out of whack") and this plate happens to reveal
                                    that in
                                    > a way I hadn't seen consistently with type.
                                    >
                                    > Jessica
                                    >
                                    > > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...>
                                    > > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 06:02:55 -0000
                                    > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: troubleshooting
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom
                                    > >
                                    > > Interesting speculation but I doubt the vacuum is such, in any of
                                    > > these machines, to be able to pull a polyester-backed plate into the
                                    > > vacuum line. That would sort of be a major engineering flaw. I process
                                    > > both steel-backed and polyester-backed plates in my machine and I
                                    > > can't imagine this to be the case. While polyester-backed plates are
                                    > > certainly flexible (and a bit unnerving to those accustomed to
                                    > > steel-backs), they are not flexible enough to be drawn down into that
                                    > > thinly etched vacuum line, unless there is something wildly out of
                                    > > wack with Jessica's vacuum pump!
                                    > >
                                    > > Gerald
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@a... wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Spring wrote:
                                    > >>> there is now a subtle but visible "plaid" where the vacuum lines
                                    > > produced
                                    > >> more suction.
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> I'm guessing you are using polyester-backed plates and the vacuum
                                    > > is sucking
                                    > >> hard enough to distort the contact between the plate and the
                                    > > negative, by
                                    > >> pulling the polyester material into the vacuum lines. I use
                                    > > steel-backed
                                    > >> plates. Never seen any such effect. I wonder if a thin support
                                    > > layer beneath the
                                    > >> plate material might solve the problem?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Pure speculation! but I'd guess it's such a subtle effect that it
                                    > > wouldn't
                                    > >> show on normal text or image areas. You wouldn't notice the plaid if
                                    > > the lines
                                    > >> had other irregular variations already! A solid pattern with thin
                                    > > rules
                                    > >> would test the limits of the system just about every way possible!
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Best wishes. Let us know what you discover....
                                    > >> Tom
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Tom Parson
                                    > >> Now It's Up To You Publications
                                    > >> 157 S. Logan, Denver CO 80209
                                    > >> (303) 777-8951
                                    > >> http://members.aol.com/typetom
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                  • Harold Kyle
                                    ... Well you finally stirred me to write with this comment! Re: softness . The hardness of the 94FL is 62 shore D so I think you d have a hard time seeing the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                      On 6/3/05 1:22 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                                      > 94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don't know if this is the culprit or
                                      > not. I'd recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might also
                                      > think about switching to a higher grade plate brand.

                                      Well you finally stirred me to write with this comment!

                                      Re: "softness". The hardness of the 94FL is 62 shore D so I think you'd have
                                      a hard time seeing the difference between it and your recommended range of
                                      65-70. The difference is insubstantial. Also, should you want a harder
                                      plate, Jet makes a 94HFL that has 80 shore D. We at Boxcar Press have a job
                                      shop running the popular "deep impression" printing exclusively from the
                                      94FL. The plate's printing shows no evidence of "softness".

                                      Re: "Higher grade plate", Gerald, your opinion of Jet 94FL plates are of
                                      less quality will not be borne out in a side to side test of the material. A
                                      rep selling Toyobo Printight visited Boxcar Press' shop earlier this week
                                      and we proofed a test plate of Printight KF95 next to the Jet 94FL material.
                                      The Jet plate showed more detail and, at the same time, exhibited less gain;
                                      this is with a rep selling Printight monitoring the processing. After
                                      extensive testing, I've come to conclude that the only plate that gives the
                                      94FL a run for the money is the BASF WH95. The cost difference between these
                                      plates makes the 94FL much more desirable option. I would be happy, by the
                                      way, to scan a proof of the side-by-side comparison of Printight and Jet
                                      plates when I get a chance.

                                      Re: Jessica's platemaking "plaid" problem. I'm problem solving this with the
                                      manufacturer of the machine, who apparently can furnish a vacuum table
                                      adaptor to make the grooves less noticeable. I want to get more information
                                      before I promise you that this is possible. Apparently, the adaptor is a
                                      "diamond-plate" material that sits in the vacuum table. I'll post to the
                                      list to let you know when I have more information. The problems you're
                                      experiencing, though, appear to be from the platemaker and not the plate.

                                      Re: Jessica's platemaking button problem. I'm sorry I didn't touch base with
                                      you about this sooner. I remember calling you several months ago to let you
                                      know that I may have found the possible problem, but I guess we never
                                      touched base. Apparently, the powder-coating of the steel might have made
                                      the opening for the vacuum switch too small. The extra pressure on the
                                      switch causes problems in it working properly. You can file the opening to
                                      be a little wider see if the switch works better.

                                      Sorry not to be able to write sooner. I should be loading my trailer right
                                      now for a press move...

                                      Harold

                                      Boxcar Press
                                      Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                                      Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                                      315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                                    • Gerald Lange
                                      Harold My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo. Neither Jet or Toyobo are what I would consider top grade plates. But they are
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                        Harold

                                        My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo.
                                        Neither Jet or Toyobo are what I would consider top grade plates. But
                                        they are both adequate for most letterpress applications. I've run my
                                        own comparison tests of these particular brands as well and my suspicion
                                        is that these differing plates need differing exposure and washout times
                                        to provide optimum detail and subsurface strength, so it is essentially
                                        misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
                                        you suggest.

                                        But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
                                        impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
                                        photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or relief
                                        depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is self
                                        evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence of
                                        increased impression with the letterpress process. If folks need deep
                                        impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
                                        photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a technical
                                        reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
                                        regard to letterpress formulated plates.

                                        Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
                                        surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?

                                        Gerald
                                        Good luck with the press move.



                                        Harold Kyle wrote:

                                        >On 6/3/05 1:22 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>94FLs are a tad softer than other plates, don't know if this is the culprit or
                                        >>not. I'd recommend a hardness rating of 65-70 Shore D minimum. You might also
                                        >>think about switching to a higher grade plate brand.
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >Well you finally stirred me to write with this comment!
                                        >
                                        >Re: "softness". The hardness of the 94FL is 62 shore D so I think you'd have
                                        >a hard time seeing the difference between it and your recommended range of
                                        >65-70. The difference is insubstantial. Also, should you want a harder
                                        >plate, Jet makes a 94HFL that has 80 shore D. We at Boxcar Press have a job
                                        >shop running the popular "deep impression" printing exclusively from the
                                        >94FL. The plate's printing shows no evidence of "softness".
                                        >
                                        >Re: "Higher grade plate", Gerald, your opinion of Jet 94FL plates are of
                                        >less quality will not be borne out in a side to side test of the material. A
                                        >rep selling Toyobo Printight visited Boxcar Press' shop earlier this week
                                        >and we proofed a test plate of Printight KF95 next to the Jet 94FL material.
                                        >The Jet plate showed more detail and, at the same time, exhibited less gain;
                                        >this is with a rep selling Printight monitoring the processing. After
                                        >extensive testing, I've come to conclude that the only plate that gives the
                                        >94FL a run for the money is the BASF WH95. The cost difference between these
                                        >plates makes the 94FL much more desirable option. I would be happy, by the
                                        >way, to scan a proof of the side-by-side comparison of Printight and Jet
                                        >plates when I get a chance.
                                        >
                                        >Re: Jessica's platemaking "plaid" problem. I'm problem solving this with the
                                        >manufacturer of the machine, who apparently can furnish a vacuum table
                                        >adaptor to make the grooves less noticeable. I want to get more information
                                        >before I promise you that this is possible. Apparently, the adaptor is a
                                        >"diamond-plate" material that sits in the vacuum table. I'll post to the
                                        >list to let you know when I have more information. The problems you're
                                        >experiencing, though, appear to be from the platemaker and not the plate.
                                        >
                                        >Re: Jessica's platemaking button problem. I'm sorry I didn't touch base with
                                        >you about this sooner. I remember calling you several months ago to let you
                                        >know that I may have found the possible problem, but I guess we never
                                        >touched base. Apparently, the powder-coating of the steel might have made
                                        >the opening for the vacuum switch too small. The extra pressure on the
                                        >switch causes problems in it working properly. You can file the opening to
                                        >be a little wider see if the switch works better.
                                        >
                                        >Sorry not to be able to write sooner. I should be loading my trailer right
                                        >now for a press move...
                                        >
                                        >Harold
                                        >
                                        >Boxcar Press
                                        >Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                                        >Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                                        >315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                                      • David Wall
                                        ... Oh come on . . . I haven t been following this thread up until now, so maybe I ve missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney. I consider
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                          > But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
                                          > impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
                                          > photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or relief
                                          > depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is
                                          > self
                                          > evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence
                                          > of
                                          > increased impression with the letterpress process.  If folks need deep
                                          > impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
                                          > photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a
                                          > technical
                                          > reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
                                          > regard to letterpress formulated plates.

                                          Oh come on . . . I haven't been following this thread up until now, so
                                          maybe I've missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney.
                                          I consider myself an appropriately seasoned printer and I've never
                                          found "splay" to be of any more consequence with photopolymer than it
                                          is with metal type---which is to say, no consequence at all. If we were
                                          using plates similar in durometer to hard rubber stamps I can see where
                                          it would be a factor, but I highly doubt that any splay in the plates
                                          that any of us use would be noticeable unless you were either
                                          deliberately abusing the plate---by which I don't mean simply "deep
                                          impression"---or you were somehow measuring in microns---in which case
                                          ink squeeze and the amount of ink on the rollers would obliterate any
                                          reliable evidence of splay. Perhaps this phenomenon is a factor in
                                          flexo printing of screened images in cases where precise color matching
                                          of prepress proofs and original artwork is important, but it certainly
                                          doesn't play any significant role in letterpress printing from polymer
                                          plates.

                                          Dave

                                          ________________
                                          David P. Wall
                                          The Applecart Press, LLC
                                          14 Maine Street, Box 43
                                          Brunswick, ME 04011
                                          Tel. 207-373-1690
                                          Fax 207-373-1691
                                          www.applecartpress.com
                                        • Gerald Lange
                                          David This kind of surprises me. I guess I ll have to respectively disagree. There are techical reports I could dig up concerning quantitative compression and
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                            David

                                            This kind of surprises me. I guess I'll have to respectively disagree.

                                            There are techical reports I could dig up concerning quantitative
                                            compression and pressure measures of photopolymer plates which I would
                                            assume have more weight than "our" experiential wisdom or ad hoc
                                            tests, but clearly, what a waste of effort that would be.

                                            Gerald


                                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, David Wall <applecartpress@y...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > But the hardness rating of a plate has less to do with how deep your
                                            > > impression can be than it does with ink acceptance and transfer. Any
                                            > > photopolymer plate, no matter brand or hardness or thickness or
                                            relief
                                            > > depth, is going to splay under increased printing pressure (that is
                                            > > self
                                            > > evident to any seasoned printer). And "gain" is a normal consequence
                                            > > of
                                            > > increased impression with the letterpress process. If folks need
                                            deep
                                            > > impression without splay they would be better off going with a copper
                                            > > photomechanical engraving mounted on a metal base. There is a
                                            > > technical
                                            > > reason for the limitation of thickness and relief (and hardness) in
                                            > > regard to letterpress formulated plates.
                                            >
                                            > Oh come on . . . I haven't been following this thread up until now, so
                                            > maybe I've missed something---but this sounds like a bunch of baloney.
                                            > I consider myself an appropriately seasoned printer and I've never
                                            > found "splay" to be of any more consequence with photopolymer than it
                                            > is with metal type---which is to say, no consequence at all. If we were
                                            > using plates similar in durometer to hard rubber stamps I can see where
                                            > it would be a factor, but I highly doubt that any splay in the plates
                                            > that any of us use would be noticeable unless you were either
                                            > deliberately abusing the plate---by which I don't mean simply "deep
                                            > impression"---or you were somehow measuring in microns---in which case
                                            > ink squeeze and the amount of ink on the rollers would obliterate any
                                            > reliable evidence of splay. Perhaps this phenomenon is a factor in
                                            > flexo printing of screened images in cases where precise color matching
                                            > of prepress proofs and original artwork is important, but it certainly
                                            > doesn't play any significant role in letterpress printing from polymer
                                            > plates.
                                            >
                                            > Dave
                                            >
                                            > ________________
                                            > David P. Wall
                                            > The Applecart Press, LLC
                                            > 14 Maine Street, Box 43
                                            > Brunswick, ME 04011
                                            > Tel. 207-373-1690
                                            > Fax 207-373-1691
                                            > www.applecartpress.com
                                          • Harold Kyle
                                            ... I m sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a higher grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of the line? ...
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                              On 6/3/05 5:45 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...> wrote:
                                              > My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with Toyobo.
                                              I'm sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a higher
                                              grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of the line?

                                              > so it is essentially
                                              > misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
                                              > you suggest.
                                              The test I did showed that the Printight plate gained more with less detail.
                                              To get more detail I would have had to increase exposure, causing more gain.
                                              I relied on the rep selling Printight to dial in the right numbers. But I
                                              agree that this is a slippery issue, and best left up to the printer's
                                              judgement. I'm stating my personal preference and standing up for it based
                                              on tests I've done. The differences between brands are minimal but when I
                                              print I have the attitude: "I need all the help I can get." I really wish I
                                              could afford BASF plates, and I might consider using them more if they
                                              didn't smell so much!

                                              > Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
                                              > surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?
                                              We sell Printight plates alongside Jet and BASF plates, so we're very
                                              familiar with the Printight brand in relation to the competition. We prefer
                                              them for intaglio processing. The pricing is comparable with Jet plates, so
                                              yes I would be tempted to switch brands if I felt the plates were equally
                                              sharp on the letterpress. The Printight salesman hasn't given up--we may be
                                              troubleshooting the gain issues soon. For now, I'm sticking with the plates
                                              that I know are going to give the best results.

                                              I'll be back on Monday! The trailer's loaded up and ready to go.

                                              Harold


                                              Boxcar Press
                                              Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                                              Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                                              315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                                            • LA. Book Arts
                                              All, the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn t seem to have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing if she has
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                                All,

                                                the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn't seem to
                                                have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing
                                                if she has enough or what.
                                                The exposing of a plate with Film is a very critical stage of
                                                platemaking, a good vacuum, a good piece of Film and it's smooth
                                                sailing. I just made 65 9.5 x13 inch plates (WH 94) for a book project
                                                the other day.
                                                If you have no way of measuring your action it is very difficult to
                                                repeat it over and over.

                                                charles


                                                www.custombindery.com
                                              • Gerald Lange
                                                Harold I actually prefer the BASF, especially for halftones or very fine detail though I am not sure I have quite figured out the correct washout for them as
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 3, 2005
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                                                  Harold

                                                  I actually prefer the BASF, especially for halftones or very fine
                                                  detail though I am not sure I have quite figured out the correct
                                                  washout for them as they never seem finished to me. The surface
                                                  texture is ideal, but yes, they do stink and crud up the bath. I like
                                                  plates that indicate by color, surface and subsurface, which both the
                                                  BASF and the Toyobo do. For some reason I think it helps clarify
                                                  things for me.

                                                  There are probably a lot better plates out there, BASF is getting to
                                                  be rather old technology I'd think (maybe that's not bad though).
                                                  Would appreciate any info you discover in this regard.

                                                  You might like this: When I first started buying photopolymer plates I
                                                  went to visit my processor and discovered a completely different plate
                                                  on his press (a BASF). I asked him why he didn't sell those to his
                                                  clients. He didn't miss a beat, "Because my customers are too f***ing
                                                  cheap."

                                                  At any rate, I keep profiles on clients as to their needs and
                                                  expectations and often process plates based on various formulas I have
                                                  used. I think the Toyobos require much less exposure and much more
                                                  washout (than the reps tell you) to get to finer detail and better
                                                  substructure. I've run Jets at the same formula and they are not quite
                                                  there. So I assume they have their own configuration. But I don't use
                                                  them or sell them so don't know what that would be.

                                                  Once again, good luck with the move.

                                                  Gerald

                                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@b...> wrote:
                                                  > On 6/3/05 5:45 PM, "Gerald Lange" <bieler@w...> wrote:
                                                  > > My comment about higher grade plate brand had nothing to do with
                                                  Toyobo.
                                                  > I'm sorry--I thought that was the plate that you preferred. Would a
                                                  higher
                                                  > grade be BASF? Are there any other plates that you consider top of
                                                  the line?
                                                  >
                                                  > > so it is essentially
                                                  > > misleading to compare them or any other plate brand in the manner that
                                                  > > you suggest.
                                                  > The test I did showed that the Printight plate gained more with less
                                                  detail.
                                                  > To get more detail I would have had to increase exposure, causing
                                                  more gain.
                                                  > I relied on the rep selling Printight to dial in the right numbers.
                                                  But I
                                                  > agree that this is a slippery issue, and best left up to the printer's
                                                  > judgement. I'm stating my personal preference and standing up for it
                                                  based
                                                  > on tests I've done. The differences between brands are minimal but
                                                  when I
                                                  > print I have the attitude: "I need all the help I can get." I really
                                                  wish I
                                                  > could afford BASF plates, and I might consider using them more if they
                                                  > didn't smell so much!
                                                  >
                                                  > > Just out of curiosity, would you have switched brands if Toyobo had
                                                  > > surpassed the Jet in your comparison test?
                                                  > We sell Printight plates alongside Jet and BASF plates, so we're very
                                                  > familiar with the Printight brand in relation to the competition. We
                                                  prefer
                                                  > them for intaglio processing. The pricing is comparable with Jet
                                                  plates, so
                                                  > yes I would be tempted to switch brands if I felt the plates were
                                                  equally
                                                  > sharp on the letterpress. The Printight salesman hasn't given up--we
                                                  may be
                                                  > troubleshooting the gain issues soon. For now, I'm sticking with the
                                                  plates
                                                  > that I know are going to give the best results.
                                                  >
                                                  > I'll be back on Monday! The trailer's loaded up and ready to go.
                                                  >
                                                  > Harold
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Boxcar Press
                                                  > Fine Printing / Digital Letterpress Supplies
                                                  > Delavan Center / 501 W. Fayette St. / Studio 222 / Syracuse, NY 13204
                                                  > 315-473-0930 phone / 315-473-0967 fax / www.boxcarpress.com
                                                • Gerald Lange
                                                  Hi Charles No vacuum gauge? How did you find that out? Geez, this was all sort of a big waste of time then wasn t it? If it does nothing else, a gauge will
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 4, 2005
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                                                    Hi Charles

                                                    No vacuum gauge? How did you find that out?

                                                    Geez, this was all sort of a big waste of time then wasn't it? If it
                                                    does nothing else, a gauge will tell you when vacuum is iffy, and, if
                                                    it reveals release during exposure, your plate/s just went south. Kind
                                                    of an important feature.

                                                    Gerald


                                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, LA. Book Arts <livres@a...> wrote:
                                                    > All,
                                                    >
                                                    > the problem she has is with the machine, the machine doesn't seem to
                                                    > have a gage for vacuum pressure, so basically she has no way of knowing
                                                    > if she has enough or what.
                                                    > The exposing of a plate with Film is a very critical stage of
                                                    > platemaking, a good vacuum, a good piece of Film and it's smooth
                                                    > sailing. I just made 65 9.5 x13 inch plates (WH 94) for a book project
                                                    > the other day.
                                                    > If you have no way of measuring your action it is very difficult to
                                                    > repeat it over and over.
                                                    >
                                                    > charles
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > www.custombindery.com
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