Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Claude Garamond Promotes His Old Style Typefaces

Expand Messages
  • Ph. D.
    ... I m aware that the naming of typefaces is a fairly recent idea, going back only 100-125 years. I just meant the types used by Garamond which were the
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Gerald Lange skribis:
      > "Ph. D." <phild@a...> wrote:
      > > Gerald Lange skribis:
      > > >
      > > > An interview with one of the greats. How did they do that?
      > > >
      > > > http://www.underconsideration.com/speakup/archives/001714.html
      > > >
      > > > All best in the new year folks.
      > > >
      > > > Gerald
      > >
      > > Fun. But I thought it was well-established that the original
      > > typeface known as Garamond had actually been designed
      > > by Jean Jannon.
      >
      > I don't know that there was an original typeface known as
      > Garamond, or that they were even called typefaces. What
      > ever they were (letters, I think) they weren't exactly called
      > by name way back then (usually just designated by size-name).
      > From what I recall, in our retrospect, there was near a
      > century of Garamond-like faces.

      I'm aware that the naming of typefaces is a fairly recent idea,
      going back only 100-125 years. I just meant the types used
      by Garamond which were the models for the modern types
      called Garamond.


      > Most of the twentieth century revivals of "Garamond" (foundry,
      > metal comp, photo, analog, or digital) have been attributed
      > to Garamond or Jannon, even Granjon slips in there, probably
      > others. If Monotype or some other foundry knowingly called
      > their face Garamond, even if it was based on the types of
      > Jannon, well, I guess they had their reasons. Myth-making
      > requires simplicity.

      It's my understanding that the first modern faces called Garamond
      were designed in the early twentieth century and released by
      ATF, Linotype, and Monotype based on types used by Claude
      Garamond. But later research by Beatrice Warde in the late
      1930s showed that those model types were actually designed
      by Jean Jannon. By then the Garamond name was too well
      established.


      > In that regard, did you also read the David Carson interview
      > that was listed in the side-bar?

      Only after reading your reply. I'm not criticising. I'm just making
      an observation.


      --Ph. D.
    • Gerald Lange
      Hi You re up late. I read and write at night so... cat naps for me. Just ain t that much time. Actually though, to get even further into this, was thinking
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi

        You're up late. I read and write at night so... cat naps for me. Just ain't that much time.

        Actually though, to get even further into this, was thinking about this today, even the term "designed" is probably erroneous, no need to get into it, but observation, not criticism. I like that.

        Nicolas Barker once explained (patiently) to me that the first use of the digital computer was to try and determine the Garamondness of Garamond. At that time, computers were thought of as what they actually are, sophisticated counting machines. They needed ship building software for this purpose because of the curves, only stuff around that would suffice. Well, they didn't find it, but the investigation led to digital type, which still carry a ship building term "spline." Hey.

        Warde revealed a number of things in the later years that were contra to earlier Monotype policies. The spacing between Garamond and Jannon is something like a generation. I guess one would assume that the later transitionals would be preferred, though one might still cast the coin to the originator.

        One of my favorite typographic pieces is by Carson, the cover of the RayGun issue that announces the "end of print." The spacing aberration of the masthead is unbelievably brilliant.

        Hope you are having a happy new year!

        Gerald



        Ph. D. wrote:

        >Gerald Lange skribis:
        >
        >
        >> "Ph. D." <phild@a...> wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >>>Gerald Lange skribis:
        >>>
        >>>
        >>>>An interview with one of the greats. How did they do that?
        >>>>
        >>>>http://www.underconsideration.com/speakup/archives/001714.html
        >>>>
        >>>>All best in the new year folks.
        >>>>
        >>>>Gerald
        >>>>
        >>>>
        >>>Fun. But I thought it was well-established that the original
        >>>typeface known as Garamond had actually been designed
        >>>by Jean Jannon.
        >>>
        >>>
        >>I don't know that there was an original typeface known as
        >>Garamond, or that they were even called typefaces. What
        >>ever they were (letters, I think) they weren't exactly called
        >>by name way back then (usually just designated by size-name).
        >>From what I recall, in our retrospect, there was near a
        >>century of Garamond-like faces.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >I'm aware that the naming of typefaces is a fairly recent idea,
        >going back only 100-125 years. I just meant the types used
        >by Garamond which were the models for the modern types
        >called Garamond.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>Most of the twentieth century revivals of "Garamond" (foundry,
        >>metal comp, photo, analog, or digital) have been attributed
        >>to Garamond or Jannon, even Granjon slips in there, probably
        >>others. If Monotype or some other foundry knowingly called
        >>their face Garamond, even if it was based on the types of
        >>Jannon, well, I guess they had their reasons. Myth-making
        >>requires simplicity.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >It's my understanding that the first modern faces called Garamond
        >were designed in the early twentieth century and released by
        >ATF, Linotype, and Monotype based on types used by Claude
        >Garamond. But later research by Beatrice Warde in the late
        >1930s showed that those model types were actually designed
        >by Jean Jannon. By then the Garamond name was too well
        >established.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>In that regard, did you also read the David Carson interview
        >>that was listed in the side-bar?
        >>
        >>
        >
        >Only after reading your reply. I'm not criticising. I'm just making
        >an observation.
        >
        >
        >--Ph. D.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
        >Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
        >http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/mFXtlB/TM
        >--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gerald Lange
        Out of curiousity I went looking for a digital Jannon. http://www.stormtype.com/jannon.html Quite nice. Gerald
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Out of curiousity I went looking for a digital Jannon.

          http://www.stormtype.com/jannon.html

          Quite nice.

          Gerald


          > > >
          > > > Fun. But I thought it was well-established that the original
          > > > typeface known as Garamond had actually been designed
          > > > by Jean Jannon.
          > >
          >
          > It's my understanding that the first modern faces called Garamond
          > were designed in the early twentieth century and released by
          > ATF, Linotype, and Monotype based on types used by Claude
          > Garamond. But later research by Beatrice Warde in the late
          > 1930s showed that those model types were actually designed
          > by Jean Jannon. By then the Garamond name was too well
          > established.
          >

          >
          >
          > --Ph. D.
        • Ph. D.
          ... Yeah, I m really a night person. I do my best work at night. ... Interesting. ... Yes, I want to see some of these. I m gonna try to dig up some copies.
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Gerald Lange skribis:
            >
            > Hi
            >
            > You're up late. I read and write at night so... cat naps for
            > me. Just ain't that much time.

            Yeah, I'm really a night person. I do my best work at night.


            > Actually though, to get even further into this, was thinking
            > about this today, even the term "designed" is probably
            > erroneous, no need to get into it, but observation, not
            > criticism. I like that.
            >
            > Nicolas Barker once explained (patiently) to me that the
            > first use of the digital computer was to try and determine
            > the Garamondness of Garamond. At that time, computers
            > were thought of as what they actually are, sophisticated
            > counting machines. They needed ship building software
            > for this purpose because of the curves, only stuff around
            > that would suffice. Well, they didn't find it, but the investigation
            > led to digital type, which still carry a ship building term
            > "spline." Hey.

            Interesting.


            > Warde revealed a number of things in the later years that
            > were contra to earlier Monotype policies. The spacing
            > between Garamond and Jannon is something like a
            > generation. I guess one would assume that the later
            > transitionals would be preferred, though one might still
            > cast the coin to the originator.
            >
            > One of my favorite typographic pieces is by Carson, the
            > cover of the RayGun issue that announces the "end of
            > print." The spacing aberration of the masthead is
            > unbelievably brilliant.

            Yes, I want to see some of these. I'm gonna try to dig up
            some copies.


            > Hope you are having a happy new year!

            So far, it's been great! Thanks.

            --Ph. D.
          • Paul W Romaine
            ... Not to quibble, but this sounds late. My notes have Paul Beaujon (Beatrice Warde) publishing in 1927 _The 1621 specimen of Jean Jannon_. Full citation:
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              > But later research by Beatrice Warde in the late
              > 1930s showed that those model types were actually designed
              > by Jean Jannon.

              Not to quibble, but this sounds late. My notes have "Paul Beaujon"
              (Beatrice Warde) publishing in 1927 _The 1621 specimen of Jean
              Jannon_. Full citation:

              _The 1621 Specimen of Jean Jannon, Paris & Sedan, Designer & Engraver
              of the Caractères de l'Université, Now Owned by the Imprimerie
              Nationale, Paris_. Edited in facsimile with an Introduction by Paul
              Beaujon. London: Printed at the Chiswick Press for Stanley Morison,
              1927. (Citation from San Francisco Public Library's Garbhorn
              Collection, under Jannon:
              http://sfpl.lib.ca.us/librarylocations/main/bookarts/typespecs.htm)

              And I agree with Gerald that Storm's "Jannon" *is* very nice.

              Paul
            • Gerald Lange
              Paul Without consulting any sources, wasn t the appellation Paul Beaujon used before Ms Warde was employed by Monotype? Maybe I m confused about that. I do
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 2, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Paul

                Without consulting any sources, wasn't the appellation Paul Beaujon used
                before Ms Warde was employed by Monotype? Maybe I'm confused about that.
                I do have some fugitive materials that were published mid-century. There
                was somewhat of a "turn," as I recall, where certain information was
                "presented." A micro-photograph of the Poliphilus comes to mind, that
                upon close examination would lead one to suspect earlier information
                regarding its production. Hard to say definitively. Don't know about the
                later information regarding the Jannon.

                Yeah, Storm is quite a typophile's delight. I am so pleased to see the
                Czech work being revived. When I happened upon Preissig's work way back
                when I was still quite wet behind the ears, I first understood the power
                of typographic letterforms. The prices at Storm are actually quite good
                relative to what many European foundries have charged for fonts. We have
                quite denigrated the value of digital fonts in the US right from the get
                go, consequently sometimes the Euro pricing comes as a shock.

                Hope you are doing well

                Gerald



                Paul W Romaine wrote:

                >
                >
                >>But later research by Beatrice Warde in the late
                >>1930s showed that those model types were actually designed
                >>by Jean Jannon.
                >>
                >>
                >
                >Not to quibble, but this sounds late. My notes have "Paul Beaujon"
                >(Beatrice Warde) publishing in 1927 _The 1621 specimen of Jean
                >Jannon_. Full citation:
                >
                >_The 1621 Specimen of Jean Jannon, Paris & Sedan, Designer & Engraver
                >of the Caractères de l'Université, Now Owned by the Imprimerie
                >Nationale, Paris_. Edited in facsimile with an Introduction by Paul
                >Beaujon. London: Printed at the Chiswick Press for Stanley Morison,
                >1927. (Citation from San Francisco Public Library's Garbhorn
                >Collection, under Jannon:
                >http://sfpl.lib.ca.us/librarylocations/main/bookarts/typespecs.htm)
                >
                >And I agree with Gerald that Storm's "Jannon" *is* very nice.
                >
                >Paul
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ph. D.
                ... Well, that s what happens when I rely on my memory. ... And so do I. It is a very nice rendering. Ph. D.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 2, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Paul W Romaine skribis:
                  >
                  > > But later research by Beatrice Warde in the late
                  > > 1930s showed that those model types were actually designed
                  > > by Jean Jannon.
                  >
                  > Not to quibble, but this sounds late. My notes have "Paul Beaujon"
                  > (Beatrice Warde) publishing in 1927 _The 1621 specimen of Jean
                  > Jannon_.

                  Well, that's what happens when I rely on my memory.


                  > And I agree with Gerald that Storm's "Jannon" *is* very nice.

                  And so do I. It is a very nice rendering.


                  Ph. D.
                • Ph. D.
                  ... I m relying on my memory again, but as I recall, English Monotype offered Paul Beaujon a job sight unseen based on his writings. He accepted, and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 2, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Gerald Lange skribis:
                    >
                    > Paul W Romaine wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Not to quibble, but this sounds late. My notes have
                    >> "Paul Beaujon" (Beatrice Warde) publishing in
                    >> 1927 _The 1621 specimen of Jean Jannon_.
                    >
                    > Without consulting any sources, wasn't the appellation
                    > Paul Beaujon used before Ms Warde was employed
                    > by Monotype? <snip>

                    I'm relying on my memory again, but as I recall, English
                    Monotype offered "Paul Beaujon" a job sight unseen
                    based on "his" writings. "He" accepted, and caused
                    quite a stir when Beatrice Warde showed up on the first
                    day of work. Perhaps she continued to write under that
                    name after taking the job at Monotype.


                    > Yeah, Storm is quite a typophile's delight. I am so pleased
                    > to see the Czech work being revived. When I happened
                    > upon Preissig's work way back when I was still quite wet
                    > behind the ears, I first understood the power of typographic
                    > letterforms. The prices at Storm are actually quite good
                    > relative to what many European foundries have charged
                    > for fonts. We have quite denigrated the value of digital
                    > fonts in the US right from the get go, consequently some-
                    > times the Euro pricing comes as a shock.

                    Agreed. I haven't seen much Czech work, but I was impressed
                    with the work of Oldrich Menhart. The prices do seem reason-
                    able for what you get.

                    --Ph. D.
                  • Gerald Lange
                    When the iron curtain fell the renowned Czech Printing Office (I think that is who held the Menhart) disposed of all its metal type. I was doing the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 2, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      When the iron curtain fell the renowned Czech Printing Office (I think that is who held the Menhart) disposed of all its metal type. I was doing the typographic work on a Czech "related" book at the time and with the help of a representative at Velké Losiny papermill the printer-publisher of the book, Robin Price, was able to secure some of the last of Menhart's Manuscript. We wanted to use it for display. Theo Rehak was able to mill it down but there was a problem so we were only able to use it for reproductions, which were then scanned and digitized. My understanding is that Manuscript and others were directly influenced by the earlier Preissig work.

                      At one point Letraset was working on digitizing some of the Czech faces but they were quite "harmonized" for the digital environment and thus lost most of their endearing characteristics. P22 has also digitized some the Czech, I was sent the beta Dyrynkova a while back, and it was quite nice. Don't know if that has been released yet.

                      http://www.p22.com/

                      [P22 is recently the owner of the Lanston Type collection. Hopefully there will be further development of the line.]

                      Gerald


                      >
                      > Agreed. I haven't seen much Czech work, but I was impressed
                      > with the work of Oldrich Menhart. The prices do seem reason-
                      > able for what you get.
                      >
                      > --Ph. D.
                    • Kathleen Whalen
                      There was a number of The Monotype Recorder issued as a tribute/obituary to Beatrice Warde, called I am a Communicator , edited by Hans Schmoller. It s a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 3, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There was a number of The Monotype Recorder issued as a tribute/obituary to
                        Beatrice Warde, called 'I am a Communicator', edited by Hans Schmoller. It's
                        a Quarto sized paperback, not particularly expensive or difficult to find.
                        That covers all the ground discussed here so far, with material both by and
                        about her. Then there is her book of essays, 'Crystal Goblet', if you want
                        to get your teeth into her ideas on type and typography. Her book of letters
                        'Bombed but Unbeaten' is rather heavy going, and more wartime propaganda
                        than printing related. I'd recommend the first two to anyone sight unseen,
                        but the last you might like to flick through and see if it's worth having.

                        She was a very interesting writer, straightforward and a good read.


                        Graham Moss
                        Incline Press
                        36 Bow Street
                        Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                        (44) 0161 627 1966
                        http://www.inclinepress.com


                        > From: "Ph. D." <phild@...>
                        > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:23:15 -0500
                        > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Claude Garamond Promotes His Old Style
                        > Typefaces
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm relying on my memory again, but as I recall, English
                        > Monotype offered "Paul Beaujon" a job sight unseen
                        > based on "his" writings. "He" accepted, and caused
                        > quite a stir when Beatrice Warde showed up on the first
                        > day of work. Perhaps she continued to write under that
                        > name after taking the job at Monotype.
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.