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Type & Politics

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  • Gerald Lange
    One of my students brought this in and it is all over the net. http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/10/08/opinion/20041009_opart2.html As typographically
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 14, 2004
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      One of my students brought this in and it is all over the net.

      http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/10/08/opinion/20041009_opart2.html

      As typographically "great" as the Bush campaign logo is said to be,
      what's with the fundamental typo none of the graphic designers who
      have gone on and on about this have yet to spot? What IS wrong with
      our education system?

      And, if anyone is interested, I have a whole bunch of that Bush
      powerhouse Folio Extended (Medium) in real lead type Euro foundry in
      some great medium point sizes ranges.

      If Kerry really wants to get serious with, yeah know, the boys, I also
      have some Euro foundry Information Grotesque, which will do the Folio
      in, quite easily. Heck, you can sell motorcyles with this stuff.

      Too bad the Kerry folks didn't seriously look at the Kennedy campaign
      logo (I do agree the Kerry logo sucks). But then, of what significance
      is typography anyway?

      Gerald
    • Kathy Walkup
      Re this op-ed piece: We had a very lively discussion about the relative merits of both the logos and their critique in my Visible Language class yesterday.
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 14, 2004
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        Re this op-ed piece: We had a very lively discussion about the relative
        merits of both the logos and their critique in my Visible Language class
        yesterday. Although I can't say there was a major amount of political
        disagreement among the students, their various takes on the logos were
        quite interesting, the general upshot being that, altthough Kerrry's logo
        was clearly done by an office assistant who had perhaps taken a beginning
        class in graphic design and at least understood how to make the software
        behave, the logo itself seemed to carry a warmth and honesty that was
        completely lacking in the Bush logo, which truthfully did begin to wear
        after a relatively long period of staring at it. Be sure to read the
        letters to the editor in yesterday's Times; the letter from the Curator of
        Prints at LACMA is worth the price of admission.

        Kathy Walkup


        On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Gerald Lange wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > One of my students brought this in and it is all over the net.
        >
        > http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/10/08/opinion/20041009_opart2.html
        >
        > As typographically "great" as the Bush campaign logo is said to be,
        > what's with the fundamental typo none of the graphic designers who
        > have gone on and on about this have yet to spot? What IS wrong with
        > our education system?
        >
        > And, if anyone is interested, I have a whole bunch of that Bush
        > powerhouse Folio Extended (Medium) in real lead type Euro foundry in
        > some great medium point sizes ranges.
        >
        > If Kerry really wants to get serious with, yeah know, the boys, I also
        > have some Euro foundry Information Grotesque, which will do the Folio
        > in, quite easily. Heck, you can sell motorcyles with this stuff.
        >
        > Too bad the Kerry folks didn't seriously look at the Kennedy campaign
        > logo (I do agree the Kerry logo sucks). But then, of what significance
        > is typography anyway?
        >
        > Gerald
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Gerald Lange
        Kathy Yeah, I think you are right about this, though I am not so sure the Kerry piece was done by an office assistant(!). In looking at this a bit more I am a
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 15, 2004
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          Kathy

          Yeah, I think you are right about this, though I am not so sure the
          Kerry piece was done by an office assistant(!). In looking at this a
          bit more I am a bit surprised by Paula Scher's critical notations on
          this since there is probably just as much one can find that is
          typographically wrong with the Bush piece (overly tight spacing,
          wrongful use of the prime character) as she finds with the Kerry
          piece, which I have to admit is growing on me.

          Gerald

          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Walkup <kwalk@m...> wrote:
          > Re this op-ed piece: We had a very lively discussion about the relative
          > merits of both the logos and their critique in my Visible Language
          class
          > yesterday. Although I can't say there was a major amount of political
          > disagreement among the students, their various takes on the logos were
          > quite interesting, the general upshot being that, altthough Kerrry's
          logo
          > was clearly done by an office assistant who had perhaps taken a
          beginning
          > class in graphic design and at least understood how to make the
          software
          > behave, the logo itself seemed to carry a warmth and honesty that was
          > completely lacking in the Bush logo, which truthfully did begin to wear
          > after a relatively long period of staring at it. Be sure to read the
          > letters to the editor in yesterday's Times; the letter from the
          Curator of
          > Prints at LACMA is worth the price of admission.
          >
          > Kathy Walkup
          >
          >
          > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Gerald Lange wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > One of my students brought this in and it is all over the net.
          > >
          > >
          http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/10/08/opinion/20041009_opart2.html
          > >
          > > As typographically "great" as the Bush campaign logo is said to be,
          > > what's with the fundamental typo none of the graphic designers who
          > > have gone on and on about this have yet to spot? What IS wrong with
          > > our education system?
          > >
          > > And, if anyone is interested, I have a whole bunch of that Bush
          > > powerhouse Folio Extended (Medium) in real lead type Euro foundry in
          > > some great medium point sizes ranges.
          > >
          > > If Kerry really wants to get serious with, yeah know, the boys, I also
          > > have some Euro foundry Information Grotesque, which will do the Folio
          > > in, quite easily. Heck, you can sell motorcyles with this stuff.
          > >
          > > Too bad the Kerry folks didn't seriously look at the Kennedy campaign
          > > logo (I do agree the Kerry logo sucks). But then, of what significance
          > > is typography anyway?
          > >
          > > Gerald
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • Printer
          ... I am a bit surprised by Paula Scher s critical notations on this since there is probably just as much one can find that is typographically wrong with the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 16, 2004
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            ... I am a bit surprised by Paula Scher's critical notations on
            this since there is probably just as much one can find that is
            typographically wrong with the Bush piece...

            Gerald

            Be sure to read the
            > letters to the editor in yesterday's Times; the letter from the
            Curator of
            > Prints at LACMA is worth the price of admission.
            >
            > Kathy Walkup


            I am reminded of an observation one of my teachers from college made, which is that criticism often says more about the critic than about the thing being criticized. I couldn't find the letter Kathy mentioned online, so I'll have to go to the library. There was another letter, however, from a teacher in New Hampshire I think, pointing out that sans serif is the type of commerce and selling, while serif type is associated with literature and thought. A comforting way of looking at things, although probably yet another losing strategy on the part of the Democrats, if it is their intent. Maybe Kerry should have chosen that Army stencil lettering for their names, the only face I can think of to out-macho that Bush sans serif.

            Joel

            Joel Benson
            Dependable Letterpress
            San Francisco
          • Gary Mordhorst
            I completely agree with Gerald. You can find fault wit the design of any item, and read into the piece to meet your own agenda. Gary ... [Non-text portions of
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 16, 2004
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              I completely agree with Gerald.

              You can find fault wit the design of any item, and read into the piece
              to meet your own agenda.

              Gary



              On Oct 16, 2004, at 12:18 PM, Printer wrote:

              >
              >
              > ... I am a bit surprised by Paula Scher's critical notations on
              > this since there is probably just as much one can find that is
              > typographically wrong with the Bush piece...
              >
              > Gerald
              >
              > Be sure to read the
              > > letters to the editor in yesterday's Times; the letter from the
              > Curator of
              > > Prints at LACMA is worth the price of admission.
              > >
              > > Kathy Walkup
              >
              >
              > I am reminded of an observation one of my teachers from college made,
              > which is that criticism often says more about the critic than about
              > the thing being criticized.� I couldn't find the letter Kathy
              > mentioned online, so I'll have to go to the library.� There was
              > another letter, however, from a teacher in New Hampshire I think,
              > pointing out that sans serif is the type of commerce and selling,
              > while serif type is associated with literature and thought.� A
              > comforting way of looking at things, although probably yet another
              > losing strategy on the part of the Democrats, if it is their intent.�
              > Maybe Kerry should have chosen that Army stencil lettering for their
              > names, the only face I can think of to out-macho that Bush sans serif.
              >
              > Joel
              >
              > Joel Benson
              > Dependable Letterpress
              > San Francisco
              >
              >
              >
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lyz Ward
              What is interesting about the response letters is that I get the impression the authors are using the logo debate to defend their candidate of choice. In
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 16, 2004
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                What is interesting about the response letters is that I get the
                impression the authors are using the logo debate to defend their
                candidate of choice.

                In looking at the two I wonder why the logos are so similar - flag in
                the same place, names stacked one on top of the other. I realize there
                are certain conventions to political graphics, however when two objects
                are so similar, the eye will automatically be drawn to the bolder and
                more dynamic of the two.

                And by the way, what is the typo in the Bush Cheney logo?

                Lyz Ward

                On Oct 14, 2004, at 3:57 PM, Kathy Walkup wrote:

                >
                > Re this op-ed piece: We had a very lively discussion about the relative
                > merits of both the logos and their critique in my Visible Language
                > class
                > yesterday. Although I can't say there was a major amount of political
                > disagreement among the students, their various takes on the logos were
                > quite interesting, the general upshot being that, altthough Kerrry's
                > logo
                > was clearly done by an office assistant who had perhaps taken a
                > beginning
                > class in graphic design and at least understood how to make the
                > software
                > behave, the logo itself seemed to carry a warmth and honesty that was
                > completely lacking in the Bush logo, which truthfully did begin to wear
                > after a relatively long period of staring at it. Be sure to read the
                > letters to the editor in yesterday's Times; the letter from the
                > Curator of
                > Prints at LACMA is worth the price of admission.
                >
                > Kathy Walkup
                >
                >
                > On Thu, 14 Oct 2004, Gerald Lange wrote:
                >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> One of my students brought this in and it is all over the net.
                >>
                >> http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/10/08/opinion/
                >> 20041009_opart2.html
                >>
                >> As typographically "great" as the Bush campaign logo is said to be,
                >> what's with the fundamental typo none of the graphic designers who
                >> have gone on and on about this have yet to spot? What IS wrong with
                >> our education system?
                >>
                >> And, if anyone is interested, I have a whole bunch of that Bush
                >> powerhouse Folio Extended (Medium) in real lead type Euro foundry in
                >> some great medium point sizes ranges.
                >>
                >> If Kerry really wants to get serious with, yeah know, the boys, I also
                >> have some Euro foundry Information Grotesque, which will do the Folio
                >> in, quite easily. Heck, you can sell motorcyles with this stuff.
                >>
                >> Too bad the Kerry folks didn't seriously look at the Kennedy campaign
                >> logo (I do agree the Kerry logo sucks). But then, of what significance
                >> is typography anyway?
                >>
                >> Gerald
                >
              • Gerald Lange
                Lyz The mark of elision is properly the apostrophe, not the prime. Just to make sure that the font used had the apostrophe, I checked the two versions of
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 16, 2004
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                  Lyz

                  The mark of elision is properly the apostrophe, not the prime.

                  Just to make sure that the font used had the apostrophe, I checked the
                  two versions of digital Folio that I have, Adobe's (which was licensed
                  from Neufville) and Bitstream's. Both do have the apostrophe as well
                  as the primes. I have also put up a photo of the apostrophe and quote
                  marks of the metal Folio Extended (Bauer) in the Photos section here.
                  No primes; one always had to special order those. :-)

                  I'm assuming, to the designer's benefit, that the prime was used
                  because the apostrophe doesn't quite carry the dynamism needed for the
                  piece and might have effected it oddly. But even in that case, one
                  might wonder why it too is not inclined like the rest of the type.

                  Gerald


                  >
                  > And by the way, what is the typo in the Bush Cheney logo?
                  >
                  > Lyz Ward
                  >
                • Alan Brignull
                  ... Are you sure it was that deliberate? I thought it was just another case of the computer automatically inserting an opening quotation mark because its
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 17, 2004
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                    > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
                    >
                    > I'm assuming, to the designer's benefit, that the prime was used
                    > because the apostrophe doesn't quite carry the dynamism needed for the
                    > piece and might have effected it oddly.


                    Are you sure it was that deliberate? I thought it was just another case of
                    the computer automatically inserting an opening quotation mark because its
                    'smart quotes' algorithm does not allow for words beginning with an
                    apostrophe.

                    As a foreigner, what struck me was how whoever annotated the Bush logo seems
                    to assume 'masculinity', 'aggressive' and 'militarism' are all vote winners!


                    Alan
                  • Gary Mordhorst
                    Hello Alan, Aggressiveness and militarism have run their course for the average american. Our domestic problems are being ignored as we impose our values on
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 17, 2004
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                      Hello Alan,

                      Aggressiveness and militarism have run their course for the average
                      american.
                      Our domestic problems are being ignored as we impose our values on the
                      rest of the world.

                      Don't count on these items to be vote winners.

                      Gary


                      On Oct 17, 2004, at 2:15 PM, Alan Brignull wrote:

                      > > From: "Gerald Lange" <bieler@...>
                      > >
                      > > I'm assuming, to the designer's benefit, that the prime was used
                      > > because the apostrophe doesn't quite carry the dynamism needed for
                      > the
                      > > piece and might have effected it oddly.
                      >
                      >
                      > Are you sure it was that deliberate? I thought it was just another
                      > case of
                      > the computer automatically inserting an opening quotation mark
                      > because its
                      > 'smart quotes' algorithm does not allow for words beginning with an
                      > apostrophe.
                      >
                      > As a foreigner, what struck me was how whoever annotated the Bush
                      > logo seems
                      > to assume 'masculinity', 'aggressive' and 'militarism' are all vote
                      > winners!
                      >
                      >
                      > Alan
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                      > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > �
                      > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Austin Jones
                      I have read with some interest this thread on Type & Politics. A couple of comments have been particularly noteworthy. 1. A critique of another s work says
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 17, 2004
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                        I have read with some interest this thread on Type & Politics.

                        A couple of comments have been particularly noteworthy.

                        1. A critique of another's work says more about the critic than the work.

                        2. You can find fault with any piece and read into it what you want. - "What you see depends on what you are looking for"

                        The comments about the use of the apostrophe or acute do not recognize the RIGHT of the designer to choose. In art the artist is the final authority on his work. A critic can make comments about what is wrong or right about the work. But, in the end all the critic is able to say is how he would have done it if he had done the piece. The real jury on any work is public opinion. We may be able to technically critique a work as to what is incorrect. It is still the general public who decides the effectiveness of the work by how they perceive the statement.

                        Some of the statements about how one piece conveys aggressiveness and militarism gives a clue as to what the reader was looking for. That is very much the case in art, books, politics, or automobiles. I enjoy a well done black and white photograph. Seldom do I pick up a publication without looking for B&W photographs. There are several color photographs which I never bother to give a look. I see what I am looking for. I think this discussion proves the point very well.

                        As a printer, artist, computer tech, and general all around interested party, I enjoy life and people very much.

                        tks

                        Austin Jones
                        prints by AJ
                        austin@...
                        http://printsbyaj.com

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Gerald Lange
                        If the designer is working for a client (in this case, the Republican Party) I suspect that the right to choose is somewhat out of his/her hands. I can well
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 17, 2004
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                          If the designer is working for a client (in this case, the Republican
                          Party) I suspect that the right to choose is somewhat out of his/her
                          hands. I can well imagine this is just one of several designs that
                          were submitted to a committee and the design that was chosen probably
                          had to be reworked a bit to satisfy those concerned with the final
                          decision.

                          I did a stint as a book production manager and it was not uncommon for
                          a designer to submit a dozen different designs to a committee for a
                          project. There was most likely only one of the designs that the
                          designer felt was his/her "own" but it was generally wise not to fight
                          too hard for it or he/she might risk losing the job.

                          It's not a matter of the designer's "right" to choose, the thread
                          query questioned the designer's typographic knowledge, or rather,
                          perhaps the lack thereof. It is not expected that the "general public"
                          understand the nuts and bolts of typography but one might hope more
                          from a professional graphic designer.

                          Gerald


                          >
                          > The comments about the use of the apostrophe or acute do not
                          recognize the RIGHT of the designer to choose. In art the artist is
                          the final authority on his work. A critic can make comments about what
                          is wrong or right about the work. But, in the end all the critic is
                          able to say is how he would have done it if he had done the piece. The
                          real jury on any work is public opinion. We may be able to technically
                          critique a work as to what is incorrect. It is still the general
                          public who decides the effectiveness of the work by how they perceive
                          the statement.
                          >

                          ....

                          >
                          > tks
                          >
                          > Austin Jones
                          > prints by AJ
                          > austin@p...
                          > http://printsbyaj.com
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