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Re: [PPLetterpress] Windmill Registration Problem

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  • arizonaprinter@yahoo.com
    Does the press have 1 new bar and 1 old gripper bar on it. we had this problem years ago and after a major problem we only replaced the bent gripper and every
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 3, 2004
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      Does the press have 1 new bar and 1 old gripper bar on it. we had this
      problem years ago and after a major problem we only replaced the bent
      gripper and every other sheet was out of register. The other solution is to
      take the bar that is not registering off and only run 1 bar if the job is
      time criticle.

      From: Keith Berger <tradebind@...>
      Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 13:58:39 -0400
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Windmill Registration Problem



      Hello All, I have been trying to run a 3" x 5" card with the brass
      bottom guides. The problem seems to be that the two gripper arms are
      out of registration with each other. The first arm is allowing the
      sheet to be straight but the second arm is making the sheet crooked,
      with the gripper side of the sheet in place but the left side going
      about an 1/8" down hill. It seems to alternate with every other sheet
      in register, the first sheet straight the second sheet crooked by an
      1/8 then a straight sheet then another crooked by an 1/8 and so on. Now
      I am pretty new to the windmill so I may be missing something. Any
      ideas? Help will be greatly appreciated.

      Thank you,
      Keith





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      Salem, Ohio
      800-433-1288


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    • Mats Broberg
      Keith, I assume you have moved small contraption in the gripper arms center to the Printing with guides position? And moved the small guide to the left of
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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        Keith,

        I assume you have moved small contraption in the gripper arms center to
        the "Printing with guides" position? And moved the small guide to the
        left of the feeding table ("Printing with brass guides" / "Printing with
        chromed guides") to the left position? As well as having moved the left
        alignment of the feeding board to the very left?

        The texts on the small signs may not be identical to what I write above
        (since I translate these from Swedish) but I would check these three
        things.

        Best regards,
        Mats

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Keith Berger [mailto:tradebind@...]
        Sent: den 3 oktober 2004 19:59
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Windmill Registration Problem



        Hello All, I have been trying to run a 3" x 5" card with the brass
        bottom guides. The problem seems to be that the two gripper arms are
        out of registration with each other. The first arm is allowing the
        sheet to be straight but the second arm is making the sheet crooked,
        with the gripper side of the sheet in place but the left side going
        about an 1/8" down hill. It seems to alternate with every other sheet
        in register, the first sheet straight the second sheet crooked by an
        1/8 then a straight sheet then another crooked by an 1/8 and so on. Now
        I am pretty new to the windmill so I may be missing something. Any
        ideas? Help will be greatly appreciated.

        Thank you,
        Keith





        Leaders in yesterday's technology.
        ***
        The Graphic Touch Letterpress & Binding Company
        Salem, Ohio
        800-433-1288


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      • Keith Berger
        Mats, yes, I do believe I have made all necessary changes over to guides. I did call a local retired Heidelberg repair man who recited a long list of things it
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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          Mats, yes, I do believe I have made all necessary changes over to
          guides. I did call a local retired Heidelberg repair man who recited a
          long list of things it could be. It is interesting that each arm seems
          to register to itself, even the crooked one seems to be crooked the
          same amount each time. Maybe the gripper arms are not releasing the
          sheet. I have ran stuff without guides, which seemed to stay in pretty
          good register, but I think that too could be better. After all, it IS a
          Heidelberg!

          I will keep everybody updated.

          Thank you!!!!
          Keith


          On Oct 4, 2004, at 11:19 AM, Mats Broberg wrote:

          > Keith,
          >
          > I assume you have moved small contraption in the gripper arms center
          > to
          > the "Printing with guides" position? And moved the small guide to the
          > left of the feeding table ("Printing with brass guides" / "Printing
          > with
          > chromed guides") to the left position? As well as having moved the
          > left
          > alignment of the feeding board to the very left?
          >
          > The texts on the small signs may not be identical to what I write
          > above
          > (since I translate these from Swedish) but I would check these three
          > things.
          >
          > Best regards,
          > Mats
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Keith Berger [mailto:tradebind@...]
          > Sent: den 3 oktober 2004 19:59
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Windmill Registration Problem
          >
          >
          >
          > Hello All, I have been trying to run a 3" x 5" card with the brass
          > bottom guides. The problem seems to be that the two gripper arms are
          > out of registration with each other. The first arm is allowing the
          > sheet to be straight but the second arm is making the sheet crooked,
          > with the gripper side of the sheet in place but the left side going
          > about an 1/8" down hill. It seems to alternate with every other sheet
          > in register, the first sheet straight the second sheet crooked by an
          > 1/8 then a straight sheet then another crooked by an 1/8 and so on.
          > Now
          > I am pretty new to the windmill so I may be missing something. Any
          > ideas? Help will be greatly appreciated.
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Keith
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Leaders in yesterday's technology.
          > ***
          > The Graphic Touch Letterpress & Binding Company
          > Salem, Ohio
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        • mike.jacobs
          Keith, If I am reading your message correctly the card is sloping when in the printing position and the press is running on register . If this is so I can
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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            Keith,
            If I am reading your message correctly the card is sloping when in the
            printing position and the press is running on 'register'.
            If this is so I can only suggest that the gripper arm is not fully releasing
            the card so that it can drop into the register guides. Assuming you have
            make ALL the changes to run on register, then check the gripper arm to see
            if there is something preventing release.
            If I have misunderstood your problem, my apologies.
            Mike at the Cockleshell Press, England
          • Printer
            Every-other-sheet misregistration is a common scenario. When I can t fix something by adjusting this or that, I go back to Square One, so to speak, by running
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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              Every-other-sheet misregistration is a common scenario. When I can't fix something by adjusting this or that, I go back to Square One, so to speak, by running a sheet through in slow motion. That is, I turn on the press, and have the sucker bar pick up a sheet and let the gripper bar grab it. Stop the press right at the point where the gripper bar has grabbed the sheet, but before it has started to swing in to the platen. Now shut off the motor and let the flywheel stop spinning. Now you can open the hatch on the flywheel's safety cover, engage the clutch, and start turning the press by hand. Watch the sheet carefully as it is being brought in to the side guides, and look for places where the sheet is getting hung up or misaligned. What I would look for is:
              Is the sheet too close to/too far from the bottom guides?
              Is one end of the sheet slipping off the bottom guide?
              Are the bottom guides aligned well with the bottom of the platen?
              Does the front of the sheet get pulled against the front guide before the gripper releases it, or is it released just a little in front of that guide?
              Does each gripper arm grab the same amount of paper, or is there a big difference? This would indicate that one arm is way out of alignment.

              Because you are getting crookedness, I would suspect that one end of the sheet isn't landing on the side guide, and maybe is slipping between the guide and the platen. There is a little widget that slides onto the track under the bottom edge of the platen that is made for this kind of situation- it keeps the sheet a little off the platen until the side guides are up and in position. Alternatively, you can cut a little triangle flap in the tympan and curl the point up a bit, at the end where the sheet is slipping down. This pushes it off the platen just enough to catch the side guide.

              Good luck with this. These things can be really frustrating and each windmill has it's peculiarities, in my experience. But you can figure out a lot when you turn it by hand and look at what is going on carefully. It may not be the gripper arms causing your problem, in the end. Cast out all preconceptions and put your trust in empirical observation!! ;^)

              Joel

              Joel Benson
              Dependable Letterpress
              San Francisco
            • almoprint
              I had similar problem a while back. One of the gripper bars had a tiny spot of adhesive on it. I assume it was a remnant of a die cutting job. After cleaning
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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                I had similar problem a while back. One of the gripper bars had a
                tiny spot of adhesive on it. I assume it was a remnant of a die
                cutting job. After cleaning it off the register problem went away.
                The hair I pulled out while trying to solve it, has not however, come
                back! Hope this helps you.

                Mike
              • Keith Berger
                Wow, you all made for a good Monday!!! Although I didn t ink up, I did watch the card in slow-mo and I did notice the tail end of the card was going over top
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  Wow, you all made for a good Monday!!! Although I didn't ink up, I did
                  watch the card in slow-mo and I did notice the tail end of the card was
                  going over top of the [ fly wheel side] pin. So I put a longer pin in
                  the guide and it looks to be better. Tomorrow I will ink up and see if
                  it PRINTS better, that will be the real test.

                  I will keep you posted.

                  Thank You!!!!

                  Keith


                  On Oct 4, 2004, at 3:03 PM, Printer wrote:

                  > Every-other-sheet misregistration is a common scenario.  When I can't
                  > fix something by adjusting this or that, I go back to Square One, so
                  > to speak, by running a sheet through in slow motion.  That is, I turn
                  > on the press, and have the sucker bar pick up a sheet and let the
                  > gripper bar grab it.  Stop the press right at the point where the
                  > gripper bar has grabbed the sheet, but before it has started to swing
                  > in to the platen.  Now shut off the motor and let the flywheel stop
                  > spinning.  Now you can open the hatch on the flywheel's safety cover,
                  > engage the clutch, and start turning the press by hand.  Watch the
                  > sheet carefully as it is being brought in to the side guides, and look
                  > for places where the sheet is getting hung up or misaligned.  What I
                  > would look for is:
                  > Is the sheet too close to/too far from the bottom guides?
                  > Is one end of the sheet slipping off the bottom guide?
                  > Are the bottom guides aligned well with the bottom of the platen? 
                  > Does the front of the sheet get pulled against the front guide before
                  > the gripper releases it, or is it released just a little in front of
                  > that guide?
                  > Does each gripper arm grab the same amount of paper, or is there a
                  > big difference?  This would indicate that one arm is way out of
                  > alignment.
                  >
                  > Because you are getting crookedness, I would suspect that one end of
                  > the sheet isn't landing on the side guide, and maybe is slipping
                  > between the guide and the platen.  There is a little widget that
                  > slides onto the track under the bottom edge of the platen that is made
                  > for this kind of situation- it keeps the sheet a little off the platen
                  > until the side guides are up and in position.  Alternatively, you can
                  > cut a little triangle flap in the tympan and curl the point up a bit,
                  > at the end where the sheet is slipping down.  This pushes it off the
                  > platen just enough to catch the side guide.
                  >
                  > Good luck with this.  These things can be really frustrating and each
                  > windmill has it's peculiarities, in my experience.  But you can figure
                  > out a lot when you turn it by hand and look at what is going on
                  > carefully.  It may not be the gripper arms causing your problem, in
                  > the end.  Cast out all preconceptions and put your trust in empirical
                  > observation!!  ;^)
                  >
                  > Joel
                  >
                  > Joel Benson
                  > Dependable Letterpress
                  > San Francisco
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  Leaders in yesterday's technology.
                  ***
                  The Graphic Touch Letterpress & Binding Company
                  Salem, Ohio
                  800-433-1288
                • RoyVM@aol.com
                  Check the rubber inside the gripper, be sure its clean. If it has been replaced with vinyl tape (electrical or bookbinding) which can be and is often done,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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                    Check the rubber inside the gripper, be sure its clean. If it has been
                    replaced
                    with vinyl tape (electrical or bookbinding) which can be and is often done,
                    make sure it is
                    not sticky.

                    Make sure the gripper is properly holding the stock. Bring a sheet into the
                    gripper,
                    stop it as the gripper enters the press and pull on each side of the sheet to
                    make
                    sure the bite is even and adequate. . The gripper pressure can also be
                    adjusted on each
                    individual arm.

                    If you are not using register pins on the guides, I suggest you do. The
                    guides with
                    the flat lip do not always catch the sheet when it is dropped.

                    Decurl the stock. If the curl is up it can fall over the guide specially at
                    the tail of the
                    sheet. Use a longer pin at the rear of the sheet if possible. It also might
                    be necessary
                    to slightly bend the register pins open so the sheet will not override them.

                    Check the bite on each gripper arm. Bring a sheet up with the suckers until
                    the gripper
                    closes on it. I then draw a line along the gripper edge. Do it to each arm.
                    If the bite is
                    considerably different between arms, it may be necessary to force them into
                    alignment.
                    I would not attempt this yourself, but a Heidleberg serviceman with windmill
                    experience
                    usually has a long bar to accomplish this.

                    You may be running the press too slow for the momentem of the sheet to reach
                    the
                    sheet stop. I have found also that is is often necessary to move the stack
                    side guide
                    about 1/8" to 1/4" further to the right than the adjustment for the brass
                    guide stop.

                    I have also found that too much speed with certain types of stock, will cause
                    the stock
                    to bounce back from the front guide, after it is released.

                    I currently have three 10 x 15 windmills and they are all different. No two
                    run exactly the
                    same.

                    Good luck,

                    Royvm


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Fritz Klinke
                    The register pins are called lay pins or guides, and come in 5 different lengths. They are still made by Heidelberg and we stock them. Fritz ... From:
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 4, 2004
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                      The register pins are called lay pins or guides, and come in 5 different
                      lengths. They are still made by Heidelberg and we stock them.

                      Fritz

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <RoyVM@...>
                      To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 11:06 PM
                      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Windmill Registration Problem


                      >
                      > Check the rubber inside the gripper, be sure its clean. If it has been
                      > replaced
                      > with vinyl tape (electrical or bookbinding) which can be and is often done,
                      > make sure it is
                      > not sticky.
                      >
                      > Make sure the gripper is properly holding the stock. Bring a sheet into the
                      > gripper,
                      > stop it as the gripper enters the press and pull on each side of the sheet to
                      > make
                      > sure the bite is even and adequate. . The gripper pressure can also be
                      > adjusted on each
                      > individual arm.
                      >
                      > If you are not using register pins on the guides, I suggest you do. The
                      > guides with
                      > the flat lip do not always catch the sheet when it is dropped.
                      >
                      > Decurl the stock. If the curl is up it can fall over the guide specially at
                      > the tail of the
                      > sheet. Use a longer pin at the rear of the sheet if possible. It also might
                      > be necessary
                      > to slightly bend the register pins open so the sheet will not override them.
                      >
                      > Check the bite on each gripper arm. Bring a sheet up with the suckers until
                      > the gripper
                      > closes on it. I then draw a line along the gripper edge. Do it to each arm.
                      > If the bite is
                      > considerably different between arms, it may be necessary to force them into
                      > alignment.
                      > I would not attempt this yourself, but a Heidleberg serviceman with windmill
                      > experience
                      > usually has a long bar to accomplish this.
                      >
                      > You may be running the press too slow for the momentem of the sheet to reach
                      > the
                      > sheet stop. I have found also that is is often necessary to move the stack
                      > side guide
                      > about 1/8" to 1/4" further to the right than the adjustment for the brass
                      > guide stop.
                      >
                      > I have also found that too much speed with certain types of stock, will cause
                      > the stock
                      > to bounce back from the front guide, after it is released.
                      >
                      > I currently have three 10 x 15 windmills and they are all different. No two
                      > run exactly the
                      > same.
                      >
                      > Good luck,
                      >
                      > Royvm
                      >
                      >
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