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  • caligoinks
    Dear fellow PPletterpress members, As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would introduce myself to you. I have just completed an Mphil
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 18, 2004
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      Dear fellow PPletterpress members,

      As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would
      introduce myself to you.

      I have just completed an Mphil in Inks for Fine Art Printmaking (at
      the Centre for Fine Print Research, University of the West of England)
      and I now develop and formulate fine art inks for an independent
      manufacturer.

      If I can help initiate a dialogue beteen 'ink maker'
      and 'ink user' then that would be great!

      I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience
      with 'ink' over the coming months...

      Angela Brown
    • Mark Attwood
      Hi Angela and list, Yes, yes, yes. inks. discussion. Especially when it comes to lightfastness. I really worry about the lightfastness of inks that I use on
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 18, 2004
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        Hi Angela and list,

        Yes, yes, yes. inks. discussion.

        Especially when it comes to lightfastness. I really worry about the
        lightfastness of inks that I use on prints, and although I try to always buy
        the most stable pigment I can get, I still don't feel sure about it, and
        don't feel supported by the ink manufacturers who don't seem to think small
        printers are worth the bother! (at least in South Africa)

        I am looking for really stable pigments for printing, especially
        lithography.

        Any help or advice would be welcome.

        Thanks,

        Mark Attwood

        The Artists' Press
        White River
        South Africa


        mark@...
        www.artists-press.net




        >Angela wrote:
        >
        > Dear fellow PPletterpress members,
        >
        > As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would
        > introduce myself to you.
        >
        > I have just completed an Mphil in Inks for Fine Art Printmaking (at
        > the Centre for Fine Print Research, University of the West of England)
        > and I now develop and formulate fine art inks for an independent
        > manufacturer.
        >
        > If I can help initiate a dialogue beteen 'ink maker'
        > and 'ink user' then that would be great!
        >
        > I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience
        > with 'ink' over the coming months...
        >
        > Angela Brown
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Timothy Arthur Brown
        Yes, Angela, there is an interest in a discussion about ink. Like Mark, my interests concern permanence... not just lightfastness of pigments but the
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 18, 2004
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          Yes, Angela, there is an interest in a discussion about ink.

          Like Mark, my interests concern permanence... not just lightfastness of
          pigments but the permanence of carriers as well.

          This past May I e-mailed Wilhelm Imaging Research
          (http://www.wilhelm-research.com), saying,

          >I've looked through the Wilhelm-Research website but I can't seem
          to find any comparisons to the permanence
          >of commerical offset inks. Are offset inks more light-fast than
          pigmented inkjet inks? There seems to be plenty
          >of testing regarding the permanence of one digital technology
          compared to another, but how does digital compare
          >to standard commercial printing in this respect?

          I never received an answer. Then, in the latter half of July, I posed a
          question on the LETPRESS list, asking,

          >...if there are any reasons not to use a traditional boiled
          >linseed oil & lampblack ink for letterpress work. Are modern
          >compositions really better in any way? My chief concern is permanence
          >and many modern synthetics don't have a long track record. Are there
          >any serious problems with traditional inks?

          And later wrote,

          >Ultimately, I am hoping to discover where I can find scientific
          comparisons of inks, especially their archival
          >qualities. It is a general principle among conservators that fewer
          materials in a project will result in fewer
          >chemical interactions and, therefore, in greater longevity. This
          was the thinking behind my initial question -- if
          >the oldest letterpress inks were simply boiled linseed oil and
          lampblack, aren't they more likely to prove more
          >archival? Further supporting my suspicions, plastics and rubbers
          and other modern compositions have not
          >been around long enough to know if they will last 500 years. Many
          rubbers and plastics show significant
          >degradation in only a few years. This concerns me greatly. But
          maybe some accelerated aging tests have been
          >run on all the newer inks which will allay my fears.

          And still later, because someone was suggesting that I ought to be
          worrying about papers, rather than inks,

          >My original post was not intended to suggest that ink is the most
          >important material in the consideration of the permanence of printed
          >material. I was attempting to tackle the question one element at a
          time
          >and the discussion of ink seems more appropriate to a letterpress list
          >than, say, paper or binding materials. I've posted a somewhat more
          >general inquiry into the other materials with the BOOK_ARTS-L list.
          >
          >But ink is indeed one essential consideration. I've seen old
          >manuscripts in which ink has seriously faded, adhered to a facing page
          >causing cross-printing, bled through a parchment thereby obscuring
          text
          >on its verso, and (especially in the case of iron gall inks) eaten
          clean
          >through the skin. In a more recent context, I've heard of photocopied
          >sheets adhering together over time presumably as a result of
          binders in
          >the toner. And inkjet inks are infamous... but archivability of
          inkjet
          >ink has been given some attention (e.g. Wilhelm Imaging Research),
          >whereas I haven't found anyone able to provide information about the
          >longevity of commercial printing inks, like offset.
          >
          >Anyone can know from simple observation that the old formulations of
          >letterpress ink will survive for hundreds of years, because they
          have in
          >fact survived that long. But it seems to me that the newer
          formulations
          >ought to be rigorously tested if they are to be used for archival
          >purposes. Does anyone know of a testing lab that has done this
          research
          >and published the results?

          And, although there was some discussion on the List, there were not
          enough questions answered to satisfy all my concerns.

          Then, earlier this month, I spoke to Dr. Paul Whitmore of Carnegie
          Mellon's Artists' Materials Center. Concerning the issue of permanence,
          Paul reiterated the tenet that fewer ingredients in the manufacture of
          papers and inks is better than many. He further observed that oil
          carriers and earth pigments have a proven longevity (except vermillion
          and red lead). He also recommended contacting the Graphic Arts
          Technical Foundation, now PIA/GATF (http://www.gain.net) for more
          information about ink durability and permanence. So far, I have only
          spoken to Dillon Mooney at PIA/GAFT but he had little to offer except to
          recommend the website for Ink World Magazine
          (http://www.inkworldmagazine.com). He did, however, promise to get back
          with me if he is able to dig up some more information.

          And, as long as this post may seem, I am not telling the whole story for
          the sake of brevity -- in my quest for answers to the permanence issue,
          I've been in touch with the Northeast Document Conservation Center, the
          Preservation Research and Testing department of the Library of Congress,
          the National Institute of Standards and Technology, the Document
          Preservation Laboratory of the National Archives, and the National
          Gallery of Art.

          In short, there seems to be little available information about basic
          ink-making components and their permanence. But maybe you, Angela, or
          someone else on this List can help.

          T. A. Brown
          Franconia, New Hampshire USA


          Mark Attwood wrote:

          >Hi Angela and list,
          >
          >Yes, yes, yes. inks. discussion.
          >
          >Especially when it comes to lightfastness. I really worry about the
          >lightfastness of inks that I use on prints, and although I try to always buy
          >the most stable pigment I can get, I still don't feel sure about it, and
          >don't feel supported by the ink manufacturers who don't seem to think small
          >printers are worth the bother! (at least in South Africa)
          >
          >I am looking for really stable pigments for printing, especially
          >lithography.
          >
          >Any help or advice would be welcome.
          >
          >Thanks,
          >
          >Mark Attwood
          >
          >The Artists' Press
          >White River
          >South Africa
          >
          >
          >mark@...
          >www.artists-press.net
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >>Angela wrote:
          >>
          >>Dear fellow PPletterpress members,
          >>
          >>As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would
          >>introduce myself to you.
          >>
          >>I have just completed an Mphil in Inks for Fine Art Printmaking (at
          >>the Centre for Fine Print Research, University of the West of England)
          >>and I now develop and formulate fine art inks for an independent
          >>manufacturer.
          >>
          >>If I can help initiate a dialogue beteen 'ink maker'
          >>and 'ink user' then that would be great!
          >>
          >>I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience
          >>with 'ink' over the coming months...
          >>
          >>Angela Brown
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          Hi Timothy, et alia I do think this is all very important, and I m happy to read about the research. Also very pleased that there are hand-made inks available
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 18, 2004
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            Hi Timothy, et alia

            I do think this is all very important, and I'm happy to read about the research.
            Also very pleased that there are hand-made inks available in the West of England!

            And then there's the philosophy expressed by Arne Wolfe when asked about archival materials:

            "Let them make their own art in 500 years"
            ;-)

            I think the reason to use the good stuff (whether ink, paper, types or, most importantly, texts) is for the pleasure of the making and the receiving. The fact that it lasts for centuries is a beneficial side-effect of using simple materials, well understood.

            I'm sure, as with any useful endeavor, the permanence of the various materials involved must be balanced with the economics. And finally, <tongue style="in_cheek">should YABOSIP (yet another book of self-indulgent poems) be foisted onto future generations?? </tongue>

            If Libraries and institutional collectors are buying books with a desire for preservation, I certainly hope that they will be reading the texts before they examine the inks.

            PF

            At 4:08 PM -0400 2004-08-18, Timothy Arthur Brown wrote:
            >Yes, Angela, there is an interest in a discussion about ink.
            >
            >Like Mark, my interests concern permanence... not just lightfastness of
            >pigments but the permanence of carriers as well.

            --
            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@

            Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com

            http://www.semiotx.com Web Strategy Consulting
            "Words that work."(tm) Communication Design and Typography
          • Timothy Arthur Brown
            Hi Peter, My concern, and the concern of many archivists, is history rather than art. Many printed things really are worth having for more than 500 years, so
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 18, 2004
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              Hi Peter,

              My concern, and the concern of many archivists, is history rather than
              art. Many printed things really are worth having for more than 500
              years, so what inks are the best to use?

              T. A. Brown
              Franconia, New Hampshire USA



              Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

              >Hi Timothy, et alia
              >
              >I do think this is all very important, and I'm happy to read about the research.
              >Also very pleased that there are hand-made inks available in the West of England!
              >
              >And then there's the philosophy expressed by Arne Wolfe when asked about archival materials:
              >
              >"Let them make their own art in 500 years"
              >;-)
              >
              >I think the reason to use the good stuff (whether ink, paper, types or, most importantly, texts) is for the pleasure of the making and the receiving. The fact that it lasts for centuries is a beneficial side-effect of using simple materials, well understood.
              >
              >I'm sure, as with any useful endeavor, the permanence of the various materials involved must be balanced with the economics. And finally, <tongue style="in_cheek">should YABOSIP (yet another book of self-indulgent poems) be foisted onto future generations?? </tongue>
              >
              >If Libraries and institutional collectors are buying books with a desire for preservation, I certainly hope that they will be reading the texts before they examine the inks.
              >
              >PF
              >
              >At 4:08 PM -0400 2004-08-18, Timothy Arthur Brown wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Yes, Angela, there is an interest in a discussion about ink.
              >>
              >>Like Mark, my interests concern permanence... not just lightfastness of
              >>pigments but the permanence of carriers as well.
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              Hi Timothy Of course. I m just pondering whether history is what s produced with the thought of history... Certainly, if the Egyptians hadn t developed pretty
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 18, 2004
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                Hi Timothy

                Of course.
                I'm just pondering whether history is what's produced with the thought of history...
                Certainly, if the Egyptians hadn't developed pretty amazing archival techniques, we wouldn't have all their artifacts to consider. Yet what has it helped us, as a species, or our planet, to have all this 'history'?

                And then, some of the finest images ever produced by humans are on the walls and ceilings of caves 15-30000 years old. http://www.hominids.com/donsmaps/images3/chauvetcavebear.jpg (http://www.hominids.com/donsmaps/chauvetcave.html)
                The simplest pigments and vehicles are the best. Carbons, irons and oils. What a great bear...gorgeous.

                I suppose all this pondering is due to my finally tossing out 20 years worth of old files, papers and computers over the past couple of weeks...

                I won't be dumping any fine books, or papers, no fear ;-)

                Peter

                At 10:52 PM -0400 2004-08-18, Timothy Arthur Brown wrote:
                >Hi Peter,
                >
                >My concern, and the concern of many archivists, is history rather than
                >art. Many printed things really are worth having for more than 500
                >years, so what inks are the best to use?
                >
                >T. A. Brown
                >Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                >
                >
                >
                >Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                >
                >>Hi Timothy, et alia
                >>
                >>I do think this is all very important, and I'm happy to read about the research.
                >>Also very pleased that there are hand-made inks available in the West of England!
                >>
                >>And then there's the philosophy expressed by Arne Wolfe when asked about archival materials:
                >>
                >>"Let them make their own art in 500 years"
                >>;-)
                >>
                >>I think the reason to use the good stuff (whether ink, paper, types or, most importantly, texts) is for the pleasure of the making and the receiving. The fact that it lasts for centuries is a beneficial side-effect of using simple materials, well understood.
                >>
                >>I'm sure, as with any useful endeavor, the permanence of the various materials involved must be balanced with the economics. And finally, <tongue style="in_cheek">should YABOSIP (yet another book of self-indulgent poems) be foisted onto future generations?? </tongue>
                >>
                >>If Libraries and institutional collectors are buying books with a desire for preservation, I certainly hope that they will be reading the texts before they examine the inks.
                >>
                >>PF
                >>
                >>At 4:08 PM -0400 2004-08-18, Timothy Arthur Brown wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>>Yes, Angela, there is an interest in a discussion about ink.
                >>>
                >>>Like Mark, my interests concern permanence... not just lightfastness of
                >>>pigments but the permanence of carriers as well.
                >>

                --
                AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@

                Peter Fraterdeus http://www.fraterdeus.com http://www.galenaphotos.com

                http://www.semiotx.com Web Strategy Consulting
                "Words that work."(tm) Communication Design and Typography
              • Timothy Arthur Brown
                Hi Angela, So what ingredients go into making the fine art inks that you develop? And, do you have permanence research testing results on these ingredients?
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 19, 2004
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                  Hi Angela,

                  So what ingredients go into making the fine art inks that you develop?
                  And, do you have permanence research testing results on these ingredients?

                  Thank you. (Oh, by the way, you've got at great last name.)

                  T. A. Brown
                  Franconia, New Hampshire USA


                  Mark Attwood wrote:

                  >Hi Angela and list,
                  >
                  >Yes, yes, yes. inks. discussion.
                  >
                  >Especially when it comes to lightfastness. I really worry about the
                  >lightfastness of inks that I use on prints, and although I try to always buy
                  >the most stable pigment I can get, I still don't feel sure about it, and
                  >don't feel supported by the ink manufacturers who don't seem to think small
                  >printers are worth the bother! (at least in South Africa)
                  >
                  >I am looking for really stable pigments for printing, especially
                  >lithography.
                  >
                  >Any help or advice would be welcome.
                  >
                  >Thanks,
                  >
                  >Mark Attwood
                  >
                  >The Artists' Press
                  >White River
                  >South Africa
                  >
                  >
                  >mark@...
                  >www.artists-press.net
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>Angela wrote:
                  >>
                  >>Dear fellow PPletterpress members,
                  >>
                  >>As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would
                  >>introduce myself to you.
                  >>
                  >>I have just completed an Mphil in Inks for Fine Art Printmaking (at
                  >>the Centre for Fine Print Research, University of the West of England)
                  >>and I now develop and formulate fine art inks for an independent
                  >>manufacturer.
                  >>
                  >>If I can help initiate a dialogue beteen 'ink maker'
                  >>and 'ink user' then that would be great!
                  >>
                  >>I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience
                  >>with 'ink' over the coming months...
                  >>
                  >>Angela Brown
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • angela
                  Hi Timothy and Mark, I thought I would reply to both you at the same time as you touch on similar inky issues. You also might like to visit
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 20, 2004
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                    Hi Timothy and Mark,

                    I thought I would reply to both you at the same time as you touch on similar
                    'inky' issues. You also might like to visit www.caligoinks.com as it
                    hopefully will give you a bit more of an insight into how we go about making
                    fine art inks at our factory and what goes into them.

                    On a general point, I like to think of a 'good ink' as being one that 'meets
                    the needs of the printer'. A 'good ink for fine art applications' must
                    therefore be one that 'meets the needs of the fine art printer'. That might
                    sound a bit vague - but it's actually the only place to start when you set
                    out to formulate and make ink - the needs of the printer - and I guess this
                    explains why many commercial inks (designed to maintain maximum efficiency
                    for high speed production) are unlikely to meet the needs of fine art
                    printers.

                    Regarding our ingredients - we make our inks from pure, dry pigment, and so
                    we retain total control over what we put (and don't put!!) into our inks. If
                    we say our inks are have no driers or are wax-free, that's exactly what we
                    mean. Every pigment imposes its own unique character on the final ink and
                    so I like to think we treat our inks like individuals and adjust the formula
                    and method of production to get just the right working properties for each
                    ink and yet retain the inherent 'personality'

                    On the theme of pigments - we probably have a wider selection of black inks
                    to offer than available through commercial ink suppliers, who tend to work
                    with just carbon black. We also use lamp black, bone black and even genuine
                    vine black pigments. The same goes for the colours, I think you might be
                    hard pressed to fine commercial ink made from ultramarine or tradition earth
                    colours like umber and sienna ochre. So again I think we can offer a wider
                    palette of traditional and unique artists colours.

                    As far as mediums are concerned - we use linseed stand oil as our main oil
                    medium. Linseed stand oil (traditionally called copperplate oils or
                    lithographic varnish) has, as I'm sure you know, stood the test of time as a
                    medium for oil-based printing inks and has just the perfect characteristics
                    for traditional printmaking. Depending on the application (etching, litho,
                    letterpress etc) we select the best viscosity we need to get the right
                    working characteristics.

                    Lightfast and permanence issues are of course really important to discuss -
                    and more than I say here so I'll come back to it another time !! For now its
                    worth noting, as I'm sure you appreciate, that permanence is a complex
                    issue and I think you really have to consider the lightfast characteristics
                    of the whole system under specified conditions not just for example rely on
                    the rating of the ink or the pigment used. For example - the acid content
                    of the paper/paper surface/paper absorbency/environment/ type of image/ink
                    thickness/type and amount of pigment and extender/ medium.....all these (
                    and more ) will have an influence. However, I think it is absolutely right
                    that the ink maker makes clear the lightfast rating of the pigments that
                    have been used so the printmaker can at least start to make an informed
                    choice.

                    As for us, we make it our aim to choose pigments with the best lightfast
                    rating we can, ( Blue Wool Scale no less than 6) we keep the pigment
                    concentration as high as we can, limit the addition of extender (which will
                    always tend to reduce the lightfast rating) and we select only the best
                    quality linseed oils. We also have lightfast testing facilities that
                    simulate the exposure of prints to Sunlight and UV and we do this for all
                    our inks.

                    I realise there is so much more to say on this issue - but hopefully this is
                    a start.....

                    Mark - we do have a range of inks that are designed for traditional litho
                    printing (no driers, single pigments, high pigment concentration, no
                    extenders added) The difficulty is getting them to you ! - at the moment we
                    do not have distributor in S Africa. However, Couleurs du Quai Voltaire
                    /Magasin Sennelier based in Paris do have a do mail order service and you
                    can take a look at their site at
                    http://www.magasinsennelier.com/francais/tarifs/tarifcaligo.htm - there is a
                    colour chart of the range of special litho colours we do - hope this helps.

                    On the point you make about ink makers not bothering about small printers -
                    I hope it will encourage you to know that some of us do !! If you know of
                    any major distributors of artists materials in S Africa - do let me know.
                    Can you get hold of Charbonnel inks and if so - where from ?


                    Hope some of this helps .. lots more I can add. I'll send a list of things
                    that effect permanence of a print if you like.


                    Angela (and thanks for the comment about the surname !)

                    www.caligoinks.com



                    Angela Brown
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Timothy Arthur Brown [mailto:t.a.brown@...]
                    Sent: 19 August 2004 18:37
                    To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] ink


                    Hi Angela,

                    So what ingredients go into making the fine art inks that you develop?
                    And, do you have permanence research testing results on these ingredients?

                    Thank you. (Oh, by the way, you've got at great last name.)

                    T. A. Brown
                    Franconia, New Hampshire USA


                    Mark Attwood wrote:

                    >Hi Angela and list,
                    >
                    >Yes, yes, yes. inks. discussion.
                    >
                    >Especially when it comes to lightfastness. I really worry about the
                    >lightfastness of inks that I use on prints, and although I try to always
                    buy
                    >the most stable pigment I can get, I still don't feel sure about it, and
                    >don't feel supported by the ink manufacturers who don't seem to think small
                    >printers are worth the bother! (at least in South Africa)
                    >
                    >I am looking for really stable pigments for printing, especially
                    >lithography.
                    >
                    >Any help or advice would be welcome.
                    >
                    >Thanks,
                    >
                    >Mark Attwood
                    >
                    >The Artists' Press
                    >White River
                    >South Africa
                    >
                    >
                    >mark@...
                    >www.artists-press.net
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Angela wrote:
                    >>
                    >>Dear fellow PPletterpress members,
                    >>
                    >>As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would
                    >>introduce myself to you.
                    >>
                    >>I have just completed an Mphil in Inks for Fine Art Printmaking (at
                    >>the Centre for Fine Print Research, University of the West of England)
                    >>and I now develop and formulate fine art inks for an independent
                    >>manufacturer.
                    >>
                    >>If I can help initiate a dialogue beteen 'ink maker'
                    >>and 'ink user' then that would be great!
                    >>
                    >>I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience
                    >>with 'ink' over the coming months...
                    >>
                    >>Angela Brown
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >





                    Yahoo! Groups Links







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                  • Timothy Arthur Brown
                    Angela, Thank you and I hope you can come back to the lightfastness and permanence issues in more detail soon. T. A. Brown Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 20, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Angela,

                      Thank you and I hope you can come back to the lightfastness and
                      permanence issues in more detail soon.

                      T. A. Brown
                      Franconia, New Hampshire USA


                      angela wrote:

                      >Hi Timothy and Mark,
                      >
                      >I thought I would reply to both you at the same time as you touch on similar
                      >'inky' issues. You also might like to visit www.caligoinks.com as it
                      >hopefully will give you a bit more of an insight into how we go about making
                      >fine art inks at our factory and what goes into them.
                      >
                      >On a general point, I like to think of a 'good ink' as being one that 'meets
                      >the needs of the printer'. A 'good ink for fine art applications' must
                      >therefore be one that 'meets the needs of the fine art printer'. That might
                      >sound a bit vague - but it's actually the only place to start when you set
                      >out to formulate and make ink - the needs of the printer - and I guess this
                      >explains why many commercial inks (designed to maintain maximum efficiency
                      >for high speed production) are unlikely to meet the needs of fine art
                      >printers.
                      >
                      >Regarding our ingredients - we make our inks from pure, dry pigment, and so
                      >we retain total control over what we put (and don't put!!) into our inks. If
                      >we say our inks are have no driers or are wax-free, that's exactly what we
                      >mean. Every pigment imposes its own unique character on the final ink and
                      >so I like to think we treat our inks like individuals and adjust the formula
                      >and method of production to get just the right working properties for each
                      >ink and yet retain the inherent 'personality'
                      >
                      >On the theme of pigments - we probably have a wider selection of black inks
                      >to offer than available through commercial ink suppliers, who tend to work
                      >with just carbon black. We also use lamp black, bone black and even genuine
                      >vine black pigments. The same goes for the colours, I think you might be
                      >hard pressed to fine commercial ink made from ultramarine or tradition earth
                      >colours like umber and sienna ochre. So again I think we can offer a wider
                      >palette of traditional and unique artists colours.
                      >
                      >As far as mediums are concerned - we use linseed stand oil as our main oil
                      >medium. Linseed stand oil (traditionally called copperplate oils or
                      >lithographic varnish) has, as I'm sure you know, stood the test of time as a
                      >medium for oil-based printing inks and has just the perfect characteristics
                      >for traditional printmaking. Depending on the application (etching, litho,
                      >letterpress etc) we select the best viscosity we need to get the right
                      >working characteristics.
                      >
                      >Lightfast and permanence issues are of course really important to discuss -
                      >and more than I say here so I'll come back to it another time !! For now its
                      >worth noting, as I'm sure you appreciate, that permanence is a complex
                      >issue and I think you really have to consider the lightfast characteristics
                      >of the whole system under specified conditions not just for example rely on
                      >the rating of the ink or the pigment used. For example - the acid content
                      >of the paper/paper surface/paper absorbency/environment/ type of image/ink
                      >thickness/type and amount of pigment and extender/ medium.....all these (
                      >and more ) will have an influence. However, I think it is absolutely right
                      >that the ink maker makes clear the lightfast rating of the pigments that
                      >have been used so the printmaker can at least start to make an informed
                      >choice.
                      >
                      >As for us, we make it our aim to choose pigments with the best lightfast
                      >rating we can, ( Blue Wool Scale no less than 6) we keep the pigment
                      >concentration as high as we can, limit the addition of extender (which will
                      >always tend to reduce the lightfast rating) and we select only the best
                      >quality linseed oils. We also have lightfast testing facilities that
                      >simulate the exposure of prints to Sunlight and UV and we do this for all
                      >our inks.
                      >
                      >I realise there is so much more to say on this issue - but hopefully this is
                      >a start.....
                      >
                      >Mark - we do have a range of inks that are designed for traditional litho
                      >printing (no driers, single pigments, high pigment concentration, no
                      >extenders added) The difficulty is getting them to you ! - at the moment we
                      >do not have distributor in S Africa. However, Couleurs du Quai Voltaire
                      >/Magasin Sennelier based in Paris do have a do mail order service and you
                      >can take a look at their site at
                      >http://www.magasinsennelier.com/francais/tarifs/tarifcaligo.htm - there is a
                      >colour chart of the range of special litho colours we do - hope this helps.
                      >
                      >On the point you make about ink makers not bothering about small printers -
                      >I hope it will encourage you to know that some of us do !! If you know of
                      >any major distributors of artists materials in S Africa - do let me know.
                      >Can you get hold of Charbonnel inks and if so - where from ?
                      >
                      >
                      >Hope some of this helps .. lots more I can add. I'll send a list of things
                      >that effect permanence of a print if you like.
                      >
                      >
                      >Angela (and thanks for the comment about the surname !)
                      >
                      >www.caligoinks.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Angela Brown
                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Timothy Arthur Brown [mailto:t.a.brown@...]
                      >Sent: 19 August 2004 18:37
                      >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] ink
                      >
                      >
                      >Hi Angela,
                      >
                      >So what ingredients go into making the fine art inks that you develop?
                      >And, do you have permanence research testing results on these ingredients?
                      >
                      >Thank you. (Oh, by the way, you've got at great last name.)
                      >
                      >T. A. Brown
                      >Franconia, New Hampshire USA
                      >
                      >
                      >Mark Attwood wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>Hi Angela and list,
                      >>
                      >>Yes, yes, yes. inks. discussion.
                      >>
                      >>Especially when it comes to lightfastness. I really worry about the
                      >>lightfastness of inks that I use on prints, and although I try to always
                      >>
                      >>
                      >buy
                      >
                      >
                      >>the most stable pigment I can get, I still don't feel sure about it, and
                      >>don't feel supported by the ink manufacturers who don't seem to think small
                      >>printers are worth the bother! (at least in South Africa)
                      >>
                      >>I am looking for really stable pigments for printing, especially
                      >>lithography.
                      >>
                      >>Any help or advice would be welcome.
                      >>
                      >>Thanks,
                      >>
                      >>Mark Attwood
                      >>
                      >>The Artists' Press
                      >>White River
                      >>South Africa
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>mark@...
                      >>www.artists-press.net
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>Angela wrote:
                      >>>
                      >>>Dear fellow PPletterpress members,
                      >>>
                      >>>As I have recently joined the PPletterpress group I thought I would
                      >>>introduce myself to you.
                      >>>
                      >>>I have just completed an Mphil in Inks for Fine Art Printmaking (at
                      >>>the Centre for Fine Print Research, University of the West of England)
                      >>>and I now develop and formulate fine art inks for an independent
                      >>>manufacturer.
                      >>>
                      >>>If I can help initiate a dialogue beteen 'ink maker'
                      >>>and 'ink user' then that would be great!
                      >>>
                      >>>I look forward to hearing your thoughts and experience
                      >>>with 'ink' over the coming months...
                      >>>
                      >>>Angela Brown
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                    • bellky6030
                      Hello, all. I just found this group and have been cruising the links and archives for a while. I ve been letterpress printing in one way or another for many,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 10, 2006
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                        Hello, all. I just found this group and have been cruising the links
                        and archives for a while. I've been letterpress printing in one way or
                        another for many, many years.

                        My current project involves using liquid photopolymer to make plates
                        for debossing type and images into thick (2mm-3mm) hand made paper. I
                        make the plates using ink jet transparencies and an exposure unit
                        built with a 2 lamp strip light and two black light bulbs from Lowe's.

                        That's all for now; I hope to contribute some in future.

                        Dave
                      • Landria Shack
                        Hi my name is Landria Shack and I am a new member to the group. Here is a little bit about my self. I am a recent graduate of American University and I work
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 9, 2007
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                          Hi my name is Landria Shack and I am a new member to the group. Here is a
                          little bit about my self. I am a recent graduate of American University and
                          I work for Pyramid Atlantic a non-profit contemporary art center dedicated
                          to the creation and appreciation of hand papermaking, printmaking, and the
                          book arts. Though I am an artist, primarily drawing, I am new to these
                          forms of artistic expression, particularly letterpress, papermaking and the
                          book arts. Therefore, I decided to join several yahoo groups with members
                          who are engaged in this type of art making. Also, I want to pass along news
                          about Pyramid Atlantic and its exhibition and educational programs.





                          Landria Shack

                          Program Director

                          Pyramid Atlantic

                          Office 301.608.9101 ext 105

                          lshack@...

                          <http://www.pyramidatlanticartcenter.org> www.pyramidatlanticartcenter.org



                          Pyramid Atlantic is a contemporary visual arts center and gallery dedicated
                          to the creation, exhibition and appreciation of paper, prints and book arts.





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Shab Levy
                          Hello, I am a new member of this forum. I am not a graphic designer, nor a letterpress person. I am interested mostly in fonts and typefaces as an art form and
                          Message 12 of 14 , Sep 5, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello,

                            I am a new member of this forum. I am not a graphic designer, nor a
                            letterpress person. I am interested mostly in fonts and typefaces as an
                            art form and in their history and philosophy. Any discussion on these
                            topics would be of special interest to me.

                            Thanks,

                            Shab
                          • Silber MaiKätzchen
                            There was a yahoo group called typophiles anonymous, but; unfortunately it no longer exists. The fun of the group was that the poster decided what language he
                            Message 13 of 14 , Sep 6, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              There was a yahoo group called typophiles anonymous, but; unfortunately it no
                              longer exists.

                              The fun of the group was that the poster decided what language he or she wished
                              to post with. in a given day the posts would be a mix of French, German, Italian,
                              Greek and sometime English. I usually posted in Swiss German.

                              The group started in the days of E-Groups and members included Adrian Frutiger,
                              Herman Zaph, Erik Spiekermann, Robert Slimbach, Wolfgang Weingart, Matthew
                              Carter, Carol Twombly, myself and many others.
                               
                              MaiKätzchen

                              Dum loquimur, fugerit invida Aetas:
                              Carpe diem!
                              quam minimum credula postero!

                              Horace
                              Odes Book I



                              From: Shab Levy <shablevy@...>
                              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 4:00 PM
                              Subject: [PPLetterpress] New Member

                              Hello,

                              I am a new member of this forum. I am not a graphic designer, nor a
                              letterpress person. I am interested mostly in fonts and typefaces as an
                              art form and in their history and philosophy. Any discussion on these
                              topics would be of special interest to me.

                              Thanks,

                              Shab


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                            • divad
                              This is a very respectable list of people who have contributed significantly to typeface design. Too bad this list does not exist any longer, but I am glad
                              Message 14 of 14 , Sep 6, 2013
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                                This is a very respectable list of people who have contributed significantly to typeface design. Too bad this list does not exist any longer, but I am glad that some members of this list are interested to talk about the topic.

                                Thank you,

                                Shab

                                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Silber MaiKätzchen <maykitten1@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > There was a yahoo group called typophiles anonymous, but; unfortunately it no
                                >
                                > longer exists.
                                >
                                > The fun of the group was that the poster decided what language he or she wished
                                >
                                > to post with. in a given day the posts would be a mix of French, German, Italian,
                                >
                                > Greek and sometime English. I usually posted in Swiss German.
                                >
                                >
                                > The group started in the days of E-Groups and members included Adrian Frutiger,
                                >
                                > Herman Zaph, Erik Spiekermann, Robert Slimbach, Wolfgang Weingart, Matthew
                                >
                                > Carter, Carol Twombly, myself and many others.
                                >
                                >  
                                > MaiKätzchen
                                >
                                >
                                > Dum loquimur, fugerit invida Aetas:
                                > Carpe diem!
                                > quam minimum credula postero!
                                >
                                > Horace
                                > Odes Book I
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Shab Levy <shablevy@...>
                                > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 4:00 PM
                                > Subject: [PPLetterpress] New Member
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello,
                                >
                                > I am a new member of this forum. I am not a graphic designer, nor a
                                > letterpress person. I am interested mostly in fonts and typefaces as an
                                > art form and in their history and philosophy. Any discussion on these
                                > topics would be of special interest to me.
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                >
                                > Shab
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
                                >
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