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Re: Ink and solvent question

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  • greenberry
    i know i sound like a broken record but: we have used canola oil on polymer plates which last more than 10,000 impressions (no exact count available, but in
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 17, 2004
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      i know i sound like a broken record but:

      we have used canola oil on polymer plates which last more than 10,000 impressions
      (no exact count available, but in excess of 10k), about 500-2000 each session using
      soy from gans ink. i believe our plates are from du pont (so says one nice letterpress
      man, a while back, from their yellow coating on the metal back).

      most plate failures we've had can usually be attributed to extremely thin (and often
      weak and defective) forms coming in contact with water (we used to add vinegar/
      water solution to canola back when we were testing alternative to naphtha based
      wash). we haven't had plates failing like that since we started to clean with the oil
      only.

      we press quite H-A-R-D too... (yes yes, no flames from "kiss the paper" branch,
      please)

      and our presses are cleaner than when we purchased them (ie, no worries for oxidized
      oil around the press)...
      if you are really worried about oil hardening, perhaps slow(er?) drying safflower oil
      may do(?)

      i'm thinking of bottling canola oil in a SEXY name and packaging and selling them as
      the edible alternatives... any suggestions?

      why fry your brain cells, switch to canolaaaaaa...

      but again, i'm still a newbie so no warranties on canola at the moment...

      :-)

      hiroshi
    • Timothy Trower
      I ll add a bit of clarification to my last posting. The job I am running is on hospital X-Ray jackets, 14x19 inches. The sides of these folders are printed
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 18, 2004
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        I'll add a bit of clarification to my last posting. The job I am running is on hospital X-Ray jackets, 14x19 inches. The sides of these folders are printed first with a colour bar about an inch wide on each side of the folder, front and back. I'm as good at make-ready as the next guy, and have leveled out the unevenness of the folders (ranging from two to four thicknesses).

        The plates are, therefore, just long strips of polymer mounted on a wooden base to bring them type high. They wear along both the inside and outside, whether there were originally two, three or four layers of folder. Part of the plate will remain smooth, accepting a decent layer of ink, and the parts that wear become gummy and sticky (for want of a better technical term) hold a much thinner layer. They only cost about $30 per set for the plates (unmounted) and I certainly have this built into the cost of the job -- but changing them out two or three times on a job is a pain.

        I would be glad to send anyone a cross segment of the plate for further analysis, and simply put, have used this as a good example of why any letterpressman should never stop learning about the trade.

        Thanks again,

        Tim

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gerald Lange
        Tim Photopolymer is very perceptive and will adjust to irregularities in makeready as well structural density. I d suspect here first the lack of density
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 18, 2004
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          Tim

          Photopolymer is very "perceptive" and will "adjust" to irregularities
          in makeready as well structural density. I'd suspect here first the
          lack of density because of the use of wood for a base, as well as the
          method of application (adhesive) of the plate to the wood. On an
          extended run, irregularity will gain because of compression and that
          is probably causing your wear.

          Photopolymer performs best with an extremely hard, tight level packing
          and a very dense precision base, such as the aluminum type made by
          Boxcar, Bunting, or PaT Reagh. Any slack in the chain and you are
          asking for trouble. Spend a little dough on a proper base and I
          suspect you might solve your problem.


          Gerald


          >I'm as good at make-ready as the next guy, and have leveled out the
          unevenness of the folders (ranging from two to four thicknesses).
          >
          > The plates are, therefore, just long strips of polymer mounted on a
          wooden base to bring them type high. They wear along both the inside
          and outside, whether there were originally two, three or four layers
          of folder. Part of the plate will remain smooth, accepting a decent
          layer of ink, and the parts that wear become gummy and sticky (for
          want of a better technical term) hold a much thinner layer. . . .
          >
          > Tim
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John G. Henry
          In response to Tim s posting: The comment that the plates are getting gummy is a concern. This might indicate that the plates were not properly processed.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 19, 2004
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            In response to Tim's posting:

            The comment that the plates are getting "gummy" is a concern. This
            might indicate that the plates were not properly processed. Most of
            the polymer plate materials need to be thouroughly dried and then
            post-exposed to insure that all the polymer has been cross linked and
            hardened.

            I have had plate problems when I have tried ot rush the process and
            not allow adequate drying time.

            The polymer plates should last for many, many thousands of
            impressions
            without a problem.

            If the plates have no specific image and are just for printing color
            bars, you could easily go to a sheet metal fabricator and have them
            shear down some brass or copper to the size strip you need from
            appropriate caliper material. This would provide a "permanent" plate
            for your application.

            John Henry

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Trower"
            <tjtrower@s...> wrote:
            > The plates are, therefore, just long strips of polymer mounted on a
            wooden base to bring them type high. They wear along both the inside
            and outside, whether there were originally two, three or four layers
            of folder. Part of the plate will remain smooth, accepting a decent
            layer of ink, and the parts that wear become gummy and sticky (for
            want of a better technical term) hold a much thinner layer. They
            only cost about $30 per set for the plates (unmounted) and I
            certainly have this built into the cost of the job -- but changing
            them out two or three times on a job is a pain.
            >
          • E Roustom
            ... Ink and solvents won t do a thing to your plates (water will). On these long runs, use little impression as you can get away with. I don t know that a hard
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 19, 2004
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              > I now have an application
              > that requires 20000 impressions per run, and do not want to have to replace
              > the plates every 5000 to 10000 impressions.
              >
              Ink and solvents won't do a thing to your plates (water will). On these long
              runs, use little impression as you can get away with. I don't know that a
              hard plate is best for what you're doing, but what I can tell you is that
              with a hard plate I just ran 34M sheets using too much impression (by any
              standard, but the client is always right) and while around 25M impressions I
              started to notice some deterioration (rounding of the edges), I did not have
              to change plates, I did have to adjust my rollers slightly. The small sans
              survived with no adjustments the whole run through. With my roller
              adjustments the large serif looked as good at the end as it did in the
              beginning.
              Gerald's suggestion that you move to hard base is a good one. I've used
              milled PVC with sucess. Much cheaper than aluminum. The trick is to find a
              machine shop that will mill it properly.

              Good luck,

              Elias
            • Timothy Trower
              Given that my local engraver may be a fault, is there another engraver in the Missouri area making polymer plates? I currently use Phillips Engraving here in
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 19, 2004
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                Given that my local engraver may be a fault, is there another engraver in the Missouri area making polymer plates? I currently use Phillips Engraving here in Springfield, but I do have concerns about their dedication to quality since the death of the owner a few years ago. Their explanation has been that my inks are at fault -- but this is a relatively isolated problem.

                I will try a solid base, but due to the need to mold to the differing thicknesses, a solid brass or copper bar wouldn't be the answer. A regular magnesium engraving would work -- kind of -- but would be beaten down rather quickly.

                I really do appreciate the help and ideas that I am getting. It will be another three or four months until this job repeats itself, but I want to be ready for it.

                Tim
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John G. Henry
                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 8:42 AM
                Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Ink and solvent question


                In response to Tim's posting:

                The comment that the plates are getting "gummy" is a concern. This
                might indicate that the plates were not properly processed. Most of
                the polymer plate materials need to be thouroughly dried and then
                post-exposed to insure that all the polymer has been cross linked and
                hardened.

                I have had plate problems when I have tried ot rush the process and
                not allow adequate drying time.

                The polymer plates should last for many, many thousands of
                impressions
                without a problem.

                If the plates have no specific image and are just for printing color
                bars, you could easily go to a sheet metal fabricator and have them
                shear down some brass or copper to the size strip you need from
                appropriate caliper material. This would provide a "permanent" plate
                for your application.

                John Henry

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Timothy Trower"
                <tjtrower@s...> wrote:
                > The plates are, therefore, just long strips of polymer mounted on a
                wooden base to bring them type high. They wear along both the inside
                and outside, whether there were originally two, three or four layers
                of folder. Part of the plate will remain smooth, accepting a decent
                layer of ink, and the parts that wear become gummy and sticky (for
                want of a better technical term) hold a much thinner layer. They
                only cost about $30 per set for the plates (unmounted) and I
                certainly have this built into the cost of the job -- but changing
                them out two or three times on a job is a pain.
                >





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              • E Roustom
                ... Do you mean like an envelope (seams, flaps, etc.)? As long as your packing includes all the makeready, it should not matter what hardness (brass, polymer)
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 20, 2004
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                  > but due to the need to mold to the differing thicknesses
                  Do you mean like an envelope (seams, flaps, etc.)?
                  As long as your packing includes all the makeready, it should not matter
                  what hardness (brass, polymer) your matrix is.

                  If I were you... I'd get one of those plate manufacturers to supply to
                  whoever makes your plates a sample of the softer polymers. I tried them once
                  on halftones - cut makeready time in half. I'd almost bet this job would
                  work best with a softer plate.

                  >but I do have concerns about their dedication to quality
                  Between NA Graphics and Box Car you can't go wrong on quality, attention to
                  detail and ability to make custom changes.

                  E.
                • arizonaprinter@yahoo.com
                  WE have on several jobs used offset blankets (Hard Dot) as a backer and it will conform to the envelope and eliminates the smashing of a die. I would not
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 20, 2004
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                    WE have on several jobs used offset blankets (Hard Dot) as a backer and it
                    will conform to the envelope and eliminates the smashing of a die. I would
                    not recommend a mag die as they are to soft and will smash out. I print on
                    a lot of catalog envelopes this way. I also have an offset shop so blankets
                    are free to me. just got down to a printer you know and ask them if they
                    have any old blankets you could buy or have. (They are also good for
                    placing tools on in a tool chest.

                    From: E Roustom <ERoustom@...>
                    Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:40:36 -0500
                    To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                    Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Ink and solvent question



                    > but due to the need to mold to the differing thicknesses
                    Do you mean like an envelope (seams, flaps, etc.)?
                    As long as your packing includes all the makeready, it should not matter
                    what hardness (brass, polymer) your matrix is.

                    If I were you... I'd get one of those plate manufacturers to supply to
                    whoever makes your plates a sample of the softer polymers. I tried them once
                    on halftones - cut makeready time in half. I'd almost bet this job would
                    work best with a softer plate.

                    >but I do have concerns about their dedication to quality
                    Between NA Graphics and Box Car you can't go wrong on quality, attention to
                    detail and ability to make custom changes.

                    E.



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                  • Timothy Trower
                    just go down to a printer you know and ask them Hadn t thought of that -- and, as a trade printer, my only customers are printers! so I ought to be able to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 20, 2004
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                      "just go down to a printer you know and ask them"

                      Hadn't thought of that -- and, as a trade printer, my only customers are printers! so I ought to be able to find something to try.

                      Tim

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