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Re: Inks

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  • Gerald Lange
    Carole Don t know if this story will help. About twenty-five years ago there was a conference held at Columbia University for Fine Printers. I have the
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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      Carole

      Don't know if this story will help. About twenty-five years ago there
      was a conference held at Columbia University for Fine Printers. I have
      the proceedings here somewhere, but as I remember it there was a panel
      discussion on ink. After the fine printers had gone on and on about
      the merits and demerits of oil vs rubber based ink and vice versa, a
      technical representative from Lewis Roberts Ink spoke up. He said that
      most inks today (twenty-five years ago) were hybrids. Rubber, oil,
      polymer. And that the argument was essentially pointless. And it is
      2003 and letterpress printers are still debating this issue!!!

      Nevertheless, about four hours on the Vandercook anyway and it's about
      time to clean up and refresh the ink, rubber, oil, or whatever. It's
      not necessarily that the ink that goes bad or dry, it's the
      accumulation of ink over time (on the rollers, bearers), the paper
      dust build up, etc. Clean up, have your lunch, and start all over,
      refreshed and invigorated.

      A nice little item from Dan Smith, in lieu of the metallic ink
      madness, are their interferance metallics. These have to be dusted on
      after printing, but they are quite nice and colorful. We've got some
      book projects here that were done about fifteen years ago, and the
      dusting still holds (broadsides, not so good). You need to wear a mask
      though when dusting. The particulate matter is much too fine and will
      easily pass to the lungs.

      Good luck

      Gerald

      > I am itching to try metallic inks (mixing PMS metallic colors). Must
      I use oil-based
      > inks, since the metallic colors are oil based and does anyone know
      of a source for
      > small quantities of oil-based inks (1/4 pound tubes) for mixing.
      Does oil-based ink
      > really dry on the press so quickly that I could not take a lunch
      break mid-pressrun?
    • Peter Fraterdeus
      Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions which will evaporate as the ink dries. Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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        Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions which will evaporate as the ink dries.

        Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
        So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles, can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile fraction evaporates...

        Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!

        P

        At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
        >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
        >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
        >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
        >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
        >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you want
        >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
        >Stan

        --
        AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
        {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

        ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
      • Lisa Davidson
        Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt, and why is it called plate? Lisa ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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          Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
          and why is it called plate?

          Lisa



          On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

          > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
          > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
          >
          > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
          > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
          > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
          > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
          > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
          > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
          > fraction evaporates...
          >
          > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
          >
          > P
          >
          > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
          > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
          > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
          > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
          > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
          > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you want
          > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
          > >Stan
          >
          > --
          > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
          > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
          >
          > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lisa Davidson
          Well, I mean, I ve seen the standard Internet definitions, but they don t really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a tarry mass, etc.? ...
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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            Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
            don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
            tarry mass, etc.?

            On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:

            >
            > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
            > and why is it called plate?
            >
            > Lisa
            >
            > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
            >
            > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
            > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
            > >
            > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
            > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
            > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
            > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
            > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
            > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
            > > fraction evaporates...
            > >
            > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
            > >
            > > P
            > >
            > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
            > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
            > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
            > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
            > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
            > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
            > want
            > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
            > > >Stan
            > >
            > > --
            > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
            > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
            > >
            > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lisa Davidson
            hmm: from a MSDS for Copper Plate Oil at http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:JK9gY2zPU_8J:www.lawrence.co.uk/
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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              hmm:

              from a MSDS for Copper Plate Oil at
              http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:JK9gY2zPU_8J:www.lawrence.co.uk/
              data_sheets/pdfs/1700-1705.PDF+burnt+plate+oil&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us
              :

              Any cloths or rags soaked
              in oil should ideally be burnt.


              On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

              > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
              > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
              >
              > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
              > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
              > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
              > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
              > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
              > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
              > fraction evaporates...
              >
              > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
              >
              > P
              >
              > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
              > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
              > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
              > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
              > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
              > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you want
              > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
              > >Stan
              >
              > --
              > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
              > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
              >
              > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Frederick Smith
              Maybe they mean something similar to Lamp Black ? ... From: Lisa Davidson To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM Subject:
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Lisa Davidson
                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks


                Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                tarry mass, etc.?

                On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:

                >
                > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                > and why is it called plate?
                >
                > Lisa
                >
                > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                >
                > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                > >
                > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                > > fraction evaporates...
                > >
                > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                > >
                > > P
                > >
                > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
                > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
                > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                > want
                > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                > > >Stan
                > >
                > > --
                > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                > >
                > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lisa Davidson
                I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn t hurt anything. It s just pure
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                  I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                  called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                  It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.

                  On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:

                  > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Lisa Davidson
                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                  >
                  > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                  > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                  > tarry mass, etc.?
                  >
                  > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                  > > and why is it called plate?
                  > >
                  > > Lisa
                  > >
                  > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                  > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                  > > >
                  > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                  > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                  > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                  > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                  > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                  > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                  > > > fraction evaporates...
                  > > >
                  > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                  > > >
                  > > > P
                  > > >
                  > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                  > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                  > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                  > solvent is
                  > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                  > hydrogen
                  > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                  > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                  > > want
                  > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                  > > > >Stan
                  > > >
                  > > > --
                  > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                  > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                  > > >
                  > > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • splitflexi
                  Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen. Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale? walnut?), today made by
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                    Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                    Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                    walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum distillates.

                    It's called "burnt," because it is BURNT. "Plate" is a reference to
                    the intaglio matrix. Burnt plate oil is the traditional vehicle in
                    printing ink, and is/was created by heating raw linseed oil until it
                    spontaneously combusts and reduces to a thickened mass. Ink making,
                    commonly done in-house prior to the nineteenth century, was known to
                    be a hazardous endeavour and the cause of many fires in printshops.

                    Incidentally, "boiled" linseed oil, as I understand it, is/was
                    heat-bodied (not burnt) and doped with a dryer, such as litharge.

                    I learned that from reading books, specifically contemporary and
                    antique manuals and treatises on printing and printmaking. Very handy.
                    Not sure what the Standard Internet Definitions are.

                    Duncan Dempster
                    Honolulu, Hawaii

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                    <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                    > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                    > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                    >
                    > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                    >
                    > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: Lisa Davidson
                    > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                    > >
                    > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                    > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                    > > tarry mass, etc.?
                    > >
                    > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                    > > > and why is it called plate?
                    > > >
                    > > > Lisa
                    > > >
                    > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                    > > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                    > > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                    > > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                    > > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                    > > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                    > > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                    > > > > fraction evaporates...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > P
                    > > > >
                    > > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                    > > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                    > > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                    > > solvent is
                    > > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                    > > hydrogen
                    > > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                    > > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                    > > > want
                    > > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                    > > > > >Stan
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --
                    > > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                    > > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Lisa Davidson
                    How about a title or two, please? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      How about a title or two, please?

                      On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:

                      > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                      > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                      > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                      > distillates.
                      >
                      > It's called "burnt," because it is BURNT. "Plate" is a reference to
                      > the intaglio matrix. Burnt plate oil is the traditional vehicle in
                      > printing ink, and is/was created by heating raw linseed oil until it
                      > spontaneously combusts and reduces to a thickened mass. Ink making,
                      > commonly done in-house prior to the nineteenth century, was known to
                      > be a hazardous endeavour and the cause of many fires in printshops.
                      >
                      > Incidentally, "boiled" linseed oil, as I understand it, is/was
                      > heat-bodied (not burnt) and doped with a dryer, such as litharge.
                      >
                      > I learned that from reading books, specifically contemporary and
                      > antique manuals and treatises on printing and printmaking. Very handy.
                      > Not sure what the Standard Internet Definitions are.
                      >
                      > Duncan Dempster
                      > Honolulu, Hawaii
                      >
                      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                      > <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you
                      > get is
                      > > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                      > > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                      > >
                      > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: Lisa Davidson
                      > > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                      > > >
                      > > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but
                      > they
                      > > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn
                      > into a
                      > > > tarry mass, etc.?
                      > > >
                      > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called
                      > burnt,
                      > > > > and why is it called plate?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Lisa
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the
                      > fractions
                      > > > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                      > > > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                      > > > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink
                      > vehicles,
                      > > > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and
                      > will take
                      > > > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers
                      > added the
                      > > > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the
                      > volatile
                      > > > > > fraction evaporates...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > P
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                      > > > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment,
                      > vehicle
                      > > > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                      > > > solvent is
                      > > > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                      > > > hydrogen
                      > > > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments
                      > can be
                      > > > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess
                      > what you
                      > > > > want
                      > > > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is
                      > yes.
                      > > > > > >Stan
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --
                      > > > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                      > > > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the
                      > Quote!}
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ExquisiteLetterpresshttp://www.slowprint.com
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • nagraph1
                      An excellent book is Printing Inks, by Carleton Ellis, 1940, Reinhold Publishing. I got my copy on ebay. Fritz
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                        An excellent book is Printing Inks, by Carleton Ellis, 1940, Reinhold
                        Publishing. I got my copy on ebay.

                        Fritz

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson <lisaxdavidson@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > How about a title or two, please?
                        >
                        > On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:
                        >
                        > > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                        > > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                        > > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                        > > distillates.
                      • Lisa Davidson
                        DD: If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?) I once took a two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the real way on copper plates
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                          DD:
                          If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?) I once took a
                          two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the "real" way on
                          copper plates with aquatint, etc., i.e., the kind of photogravure
                          that is a major pain, not Solarplate, or whatever. The teacher
                          mentioned burnt plate oil, and I asked him what it was. He said it
                          was a kind of oil. Well, OK, helpful enough in a way, meaning "I'm
                          in a hurry." My question really is a physical one. If you heat oil
                          until it catches on fire, why would the residue even be usable? How
                          do they make it? That's probably not in a printmaking book, or is
                          it? As you heat the oil, I am guessing that the most volatile
                          fractions will burn off, leaving the less volatile fractions? So you
                          work your way down to a kind of heavy machine oil? But where do the
                          combustion byproducts go? I assume they remain in the oil. Do they
                          filter it or refine it before they sell it to printmakers? Do these
                          combustion byproducts actually look good, like you could mix them
                          with regular old ink and they would improve the appearance? I
                          thought it was just to make the ink more fluid and workable. Thus my
                          question . . . .

                          On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:

                          > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                          > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                          > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                          > distillates.
                          >
                          > It's called "burnt," because it is BURNT. "Plate" is a reference to
                          > the intaglio matrix. Burnt plate oil is the traditional vehicle in
                          > printing ink, and is/was created by heating raw linseed oil until it
                          > spontaneously combusts and reduces to a thickened mass. Ink making,
                          > commonly done in-house prior to the nineteenth century, was known to
                          > be a hazardous endeavour and the cause of many fires in printshops.
                          >
                          > Incidentally, "boiled" linseed oil, as I understand it, is/was
                          > heat-bodied (not burnt) and doped with a dryer, such as litharge.
                          >
                          > I learned that from reading books, specifically contemporary and
                          > antique manuals and treatises on printing and printmaking. Very handy.
                          > Not sure what the Standard Internet Definitions are.
                          >
                          > Duncan Dempster
                          > Honolulu, Hawaii
                          >
                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                          > <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you
                          > get is
                          > > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                          > > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                          > >
                          > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: Lisa Davidson
                          > > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                          > > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but
                          > they
                          > > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn
                          > into a
                          > > > tarry mass, etc.?
                          > > >
                          > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called
                          > burnt,
                          > > > > and why is it called plate?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Lisa
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the
                          > fractions
                          > > > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                          > > > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                          > > > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink
                          > vehicles,
                          > > > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and
                          > will take
                          > > > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers
                          > added the
                          > > > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the
                          > volatile
                          > > > > > fraction evaporates...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > P
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                          > > > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment,
                          > vehicle
                          > > > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                          > > > solvent is
                          > > > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                          > > > hydrogen
                          > > > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments
                          > can be
                          > > > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess
                          > what you
                          > > > > want
                          > > > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is
                          > yes.
                          > > > > > >Stan
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --
                          > > > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                          > > > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the
                          > Quote!}
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lisa Davidson
                          Thank you, Fritz! The correct vitamin, as always. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                            Thank you, Fritz! The correct vitamin, as always.

                            On Apr 11, 2008, at 12:14 AM, nagraph1 wrote:

                            > An excellent book is Printing Inks, by Carleton Ellis, 1940, Reinhold
                            > Publishing. I got my copy on ebay.
                            >
                            > Fritz
                            >
                            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                            > <lisaxdavidson@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > How about a title or two, please?
                            > >
                            > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                            > > > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                            > > > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                            > > > distillates.
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Frederick Smith
                            It is. I was recalling a method I had read about where they delliberately burned some sort of oil (lamp oil, kerosene?) to produce it in quantity. It involved,
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                              It is. I was recalling a method I had read about where they delliberately burned some sort of oil (lamp oil, kerosene?) to produce it in quantity. It involved, or so I remember, dripping the oil on a heated plate, then passing the fumes through some sort of condensing/filter aparatus. If I'm off base here, I apologise.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Lisa Davidson
                              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:51 PM
                              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks


                              I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                              called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                              It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.

                              On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:

                              > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Lisa Davidson
                              > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                              >
                              > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                              > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                              > tarry mass, etc.?



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                            • Lisa Davidson
                              That s very interesting. I didn t know about that. Apologise? God no. Why? Thank you for telling me a simple answer and not saying I m lazy and stupid
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                That's very interesting. I didn't know about that.
                                Apologise? God no.
                                Why?
                                Thank you for telling me a simple answer and not saying I'm lazy and
                                stupid because I didn't read a book! That weighs on me a bit. The
                                possibility of its being the wrong answer is hardly relevant.

                                On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Frederick Smith wrote:

                                > It is. I was recalling a method I had read about where they
                                > delliberately burned some sort of oil (lamp oil, kerosene?) to
                                > produce it in quantity. It involved, or so I remember, dripping the
                                > oil on a heated plate, then passing the fumes through some sort of
                                > condensing/filter aparatus. If I'm off base here, I apologise.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Lisa Davidson
                                > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:51 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                                >
                                > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                                > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                                > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                                >
                                > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                                >
                                > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: Lisa Davidson
                                > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                                > >
                                > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                                > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                                > > tarry mass, etc.?
                                >
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                              • splitflexi
                                ... Traité des Manières de Graver en Taille-Douce... -- Abraham Bosse New Ways of Gravure -- Stanley William Hayter
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                  <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > How about a title or two, please?


                                  Traité des Manières de Graver en Taille-Douce... -- Abraham Bosse

                                  New Ways of Gravure -- Stanley William Hayter
                                • splitflexi
                                  ... Thanks, but not required :) ... Yeah, the volatile components burn off and evaporate meaning out into the atmosphere. It darkens as it becomes more
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                    <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > DD:
                                    > If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?)

                                    Thanks, but not required :)


                                    > two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the "real" way on
                                    > copper plates with aquatint, etc., i.e., the kind of photogravure
                                    > that is a major pain, not Solarplate, or whatever. The teacher
                                    > mentioned burnt plate oil, and I asked him what it was. He said it
                                    > was a kind of oil. Well, OK, helpful enough in a way, meaning "I'm
                                    > in a hurry." My question really is a physical one. If you heat oil
                                    > until it catches on fire, why would the residue even be usable? How
                                    > do they make it? That's probably not in a printmaking book, or is
                                    > it? As you heat the oil, I am guessing that the most volatile
                                    > fractions will burn off, leaving the less volatile fractions? Soyou
                                    > work your way down to a kind of heavy machine oil? But where do the
                                    > combustion byproducts go? I assume they remain in the oil. Do they
                                    > filter it or refine it before they sell it to printmakers?

                                    Yeah, the volatile components burn off and evaporate meaning out into
                                    the atmosphere. It darkens as it becomes more thickened, so maybe that
                                    represents some residue. I understand that it can be clarified a bit
                                    with an alkali. You might want to consult a chemist to get more in
                                    depth. I find that this is about all I need to understand to
                                    successfully use ink (maybe even less!)


                                    Do these
                                    > combustion byproducts actually look good, like you could mix them
                                    > with regular old ink and they would improve the appearance? I
                                    > thought it was just to make the ink more fluid and workable. Thus my
                                    > question . . . .

                                    I don't understand the question about improving the appearance of ink,
                                    or "regular old ink." This viscous oil is used in two ways: 1) To
                                    provide the primary body of the ink (in the case of the thickest
                                    grades), and 2) to adjust the viscosity and working qualities of the
                                    ink for specific techniques (like, say, photogravure).
                                  • Mike Anderson
                                    Good site to learn a bit about Burnt Plate Oil. http://www.northernlightstudio.com/burnoil.php ... From: splitflexi To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                      Good site to learn a bit about "Burnt Plate Oil."

                                      http://www.northernlightstudio.com/burnoil.php


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: splitflexi
                                      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 4:26 PM
                                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks


                                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                      <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > DD:
                                      > If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?)

                                      Thanks, but not required :)

                                      > two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the "real" way on
                                      > copper plates with aquatint, etc., i.e., the kind of photogravure
                                      > that is a major pain, not Solarplate, or whatever. The teacher
                                      > mentioned burnt plate oil, and I asked him what it was. He said it
                                      > was a kind of oil. Well, OK, helpful enough in a way, meaning "I'm
                                      > in a hurry." My question really is a physical one. If you heat oil
                                      > until it catches on fire, why would the residue even be usable? How
                                      > do they make it? That's probably not in a printmaking book, or is
                                      > it? As you heat the oil, I am guessing that the most volatile
                                      > fractions will burn off, leaving the less volatile fractions? Soyou
                                      > work your way down to a kind of heavy machine oil? But where do the
                                      > combustion byproducts go? I assume they remain in the oil. Do they
                                      > filter it or refine it before they sell it to printmakers?

                                      Yeah, the volatile components burn off and evaporate meaning out into
                                      the atmosphere. It darkens as it becomes more thickened, so maybe that
                                      represents some residue. I understand that it can be clarified a bit
                                      with an alkali. You might want to consult a chemist to get more in
                                      depth. I find that this is about all I need to understand to
                                      successfully use ink (maybe even less!)

                                      Do these
                                      > combustion byproducts actually look good, like you could mix them
                                      > with regular old ink and they would improve the appearance? I
                                      > thought it was just to make the ink more fluid and workable. Thus my
                                      > question . . . .

                                      I don't understand the question about improving the appearance of ink,
                                      or "regular old ink." This viscous oil is used in two ways: 1) To
                                      provide the primary body of the ink (in the case of the thickest
                                      grades), and 2) to adjust the viscosity and working qualities of the
                                      ink for specific techniques (like, say, photogravure).





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • splitflexi
                                      ... Wow, did i say that? You might want to try taking people s responses at face value and not impugn their motivations, especially if you want simple answers
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                        <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:

                                        > Thank you for telling me a simple answer and not saying I'm lazy and
                                        > stupid because I didn't read a book! That weighs on me a bit.

                                        Wow, did i say that? You might want to try taking people's responses
                                        at face value and not impugn their motivations, especially if you want
                                        simple answers to arcane questions, free and on demand.
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.