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Re: [PPLetterpress] Inks

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  • Jessica Spring
    It s not that fast--don t worry! Daniel Smith carries a few colors in tubes, and they carry a non-skinning spray as well if that would put your fears at rest.
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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      It's not that fast--don't worry!
      Daniel Smith carries a few colors in tubes, and they carry a non-skinning
      spray as well if that would put your fears at rest.
      --Jessica


      > From: "Carole Aldrich" <carolealdrich@...>
      > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:35:24 -0000
      > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Inks
      >
      > I am itching to try metallic inks (mixing PMS metallic colors). Must I use
      > oil-based
      > inks, since the metallic colors are oil based and does anyone know of a source
      > for
      > small quantities of oil-based inks (1/4 pound tubes) for mixing. Does
      > oil-based ink
      > really dry on the press so quickly that I could not take a lunch break
      > mid-pressrun?
      >
      >
      >
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    • Carole Aldrich
      I am itching to try metallic inks (mixing PMS metallic colors). Must I use oil-based inks, since the metallic colors are oil based and does anyone know of a
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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        I am itching to try metallic inks (mixing PMS metallic colors). Must I use oil-based
        inks, since the metallic colors are oil based and does anyone know of a source for
        small quantities of oil-based inks (1/4 pound tubes) for mixing. Does oil-based ink
        really dry on the press so quickly that I could not take a lunch break mid-pressrun?
      • Gerald Lange
        Carole Don t know if this story will help. About twenty-five years ago there was a conference held at Columbia University for Fine Printers. I have the
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 3, 2003
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          Carole

          Don't know if this story will help. About twenty-five years ago there
          was a conference held at Columbia University for Fine Printers. I have
          the proceedings here somewhere, but as I remember it there was a panel
          discussion on ink. After the fine printers had gone on and on about
          the merits and demerits of oil vs rubber based ink and vice versa, a
          technical representative from Lewis Roberts Ink spoke up. He said that
          most inks today (twenty-five years ago) were hybrids. Rubber, oil,
          polymer. And that the argument was essentially pointless. And it is
          2003 and letterpress printers are still debating this issue!!!

          Nevertheless, about four hours on the Vandercook anyway and it's about
          time to clean up and refresh the ink, rubber, oil, or whatever. It's
          not necessarily that the ink that goes bad or dry, it's the
          accumulation of ink over time (on the rollers, bearers), the paper
          dust build up, etc. Clean up, have your lunch, and start all over,
          refreshed and invigorated.

          A nice little item from Dan Smith, in lieu of the metallic ink
          madness, are their interferance metallics. These have to be dusted on
          after printing, but they are quite nice and colorful. We've got some
          book projects here that were done about fifteen years ago, and the
          dusting still holds (broadsides, not so good). You need to wear a mask
          though when dusting. The particulate matter is much too fine and will
          easily pass to the lungs.

          Good luck

          Gerald

          > I am itching to try metallic inks (mixing PMS metallic colors). Must
          I use oil-based
          > inks, since the metallic colors are oil based and does anyone know
          of a source for
          > small quantities of oil-based inks (1/4 pound tubes) for mixing.
          Does oil-based ink
          > really dry on the press so quickly that I could not take a lunch
          break mid-pressrun?
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions which will evaporate as the ink dries. Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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            Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions which will evaporate as the ink dries.

            Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
            So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles, can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile fraction evaporates...

            Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!

            P

            At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
            >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
            >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
            >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
            >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
            >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you want
            >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
            >Stan

            --
            AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
            {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}

            ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
          • Lisa Davidson
            Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt, and why is it called plate? Lisa ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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              Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
              and why is it called plate?

              Lisa



              On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

              > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
              > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
              >
              > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
              > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
              > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
              > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
              > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
              > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
              > fraction evaporates...
              >
              > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
              >
              > P
              >
              > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
              > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
              > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
              > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
              > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
              > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you want
              > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
              > >Stan
              >
              > --
              > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
              > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
              >
              > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lisa Davidson
              Well, I mean, I ve seen the standard Internet definitions, but they don t really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a tarry mass, etc.? ...
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                tarry mass, etc.?

                On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:

                >
                > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                > and why is it called plate?
                >
                > Lisa
                >
                > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                >
                > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                > >
                > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                > > fraction evaporates...
                > >
                > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                > >
                > > P
                > >
                > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
                > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
                > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                > want
                > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                > > >Stan
                > >
                > > --
                > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                > >
                > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lisa Davidson
                hmm: from a MSDS for Copper Plate Oil at http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:JK9gY2zPU_8J:www.lawrence.co.uk/
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                  hmm:

                  from a MSDS for Copper Plate Oil at
                  http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:JK9gY2zPU_8J:www.lawrence.co.uk/
                  data_sheets/pdfs/1700-1705.PDF+burnt+plate+oil&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us
                  :

                  Any cloths or rags soaked
                  in oil should ideally be burnt.


                  On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

                  > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                  > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                  >
                  > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                  > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                  > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                  > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                  > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                  > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                  > fraction evaporates...
                  >
                  > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                  >
                  > P
                  >
                  > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                  > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                  > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
                  > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
                  > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                  > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you want
                  > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                  > >Stan
                  >
                  > --
                  > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                  > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                  >
                  > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Frederick Smith
                  Maybe they mean something similar to Lamp Black ? ... From: Lisa Davidson To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM Subject:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                    Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Lisa Davidson
                    To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks


                    Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                    don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                    tarry mass, etc.?

                    On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:

                    >
                    > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                    > and why is it called plate?
                    >
                    > Lisa
                    >
                    > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                    >
                    > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                    > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                    > >
                    > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                    > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                    > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                    > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                    > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                    > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                    > > fraction evaporates...
                    > >
                    > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                    > >
                    > > P
                    > >
                    > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                    > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                    > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the solvent is
                    > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing hydrogen
                    > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                    > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                    > want
                    > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                    > > >Stan
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                    > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                    > >
                    > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lisa Davidson
                    I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn t hurt anything. It s just pure
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                      I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                      called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                      It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.

                      On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:

                      > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Lisa Davidson
                      > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                      >
                      > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                      > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                      > tarry mass, etc.?
                      >
                      > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                      > > and why is it called plate?
                      > >
                      > > Lisa
                      > >
                      > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                      > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                      > > >
                      > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                      > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                      > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                      > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                      > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                      > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                      > > > fraction evaporates...
                      > > >
                      > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                      > > >
                      > > > P
                      > > >
                      > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                      > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                      > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                      > solvent is
                      > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                      > hydrogen
                      > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                      > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                      > > want
                      > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                      > > > >Stan
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                      > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                      > > >
                      > > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • splitflexi
                      Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen. Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale? walnut?), today made by
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
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                        Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                        Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                        walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum distillates.

                        It's called "burnt," because it is BURNT. "Plate" is a reference to
                        the intaglio matrix. Burnt plate oil is the traditional vehicle in
                        printing ink, and is/was created by heating raw linseed oil until it
                        spontaneously combusts and reduces to a thickened mass. Ink making,
                        commonly done in-house prior to the nineteenth century, was known to
                        be a hazardous endeavour and the cause of many fires in printshops.

                        Incidentally, "boiled" linseed oil, as I understand it, is/was
                        heat-bodied (not burnt) and doped with a dryer, such as litharge.

                        I learned that from reading books, specifically contemporary and
                        antique manuals and treatises on printing and printmaking. Very handy.
                        Not sure what the Standard Internet Definitions are.

                        Duncan Dempster
                        Honolulu, Hawaii

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                        <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                        > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                        > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                        >
                        > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                        >
                        > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Lisa Davidson
                        > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                        > >
                        > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                        > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                        > > tarry mass, etc.?
                        > >
                        > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called burnt,
                        > > > and why is it called plate?
                        > > >
                        > > > Lisa
                        > > >
                        > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the fractions
                        > > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                        > > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                        > > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink vehicles,
                        > > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and will take
                        > > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers added the
                        > > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the volatile
                        > > > > fraction evaporates...
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > P
                        > > > >
                        > > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                        > > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment, vehicle
                        > > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                        > > solvent is
                        > > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                        > > hydrogen
                        > > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments can be
                        > > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess what you
                        > > > want
                        > > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is yes.
                        > > > > >Stan
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                        > > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the Quote!}
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Lisa Davidson
                        How about a title or two, please? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          How about a title or two, please?

                          On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:

                          > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                          > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                          > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                          > distillates.
                          >
                          > It's called "burnt," because it is BURNT. "Plate" is a reference to
                          > the intaglio matrix. Burnt plate oil is the traditional vehicle in
                          > printing ink, and is/was created by heating raw linseed oil until it
                          > spontaneously combusts and reduces to a thickened mass. Ink making,
                          > commonly done in-house prior to the nineteenth century, was known to
                          > be a hazardous endeavour and the cause of many fires in printshops.
                          >
                          > Incidentally, "boiled" linseed oil, as I understand it, is/was
                          > heat-bodied (not burnt) and doped with a dryer, such as litharge.
                          >
                          > I learned that from reading books, specifically contemporary and
                          > antique manuals and treatises on printing and printmaking. Very handy.
                          > Not sure what the Standard Internet Definitions are.
                          >
                          > Duncan Dempster
                          > Honolulu, Hawaii
                          >
                          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                          > <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you
                          > get is
                          > > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                          > > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                          > >
                          > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: Lisa Davidson
                          > > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                          > > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                          > > >
                          > > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but
                          > they
                          > > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn
                          > into a
                          > > > tarry mass, etc.?
                          > > >
                          > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called
                          > burnt,
                          > > > > and why is it called plate?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Lisa
                          > > > >
                          > > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the
                          > fractions
                          > > > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                          > > > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                          > > > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink
                          > vehicles,
                          > > > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and
                          > will take
                          > > > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers
                          > added the
                          > > > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the
                          > volatile
                          > > > > > fraction evaporates...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > P
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                          > > > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment,
                          > vehicle
                          > > > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                          > > > solvent is
                          > > > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                          > > > hydrogen
                          > > > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments
                          > can be
                          > > > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess
                          > what you
                          > > > > want
                          > > > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is
                          > yes.
                          > > > > > >Stan
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --
                          > > > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                          > > > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the
                          > Quote!}
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ExquisiteLetterpresshttp://www.slowprint.com
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • nagraph1
                          An excellent book is Printing Inks, by Carleton Ellis, 1940, Reinhold Publishing. I got my copy on ebay. Fritz
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                            An excellent book is Printing Inks, by Carleton Ellis, 1940, Reinhold
                            Publishing. I got my copy on ebay.

                            Fritz

                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson <lisaxdavidson@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > How about a title or two, please?
                            >
                            > On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:
                            >
                            > > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                            > > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                            > > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                            > > distillates.
                          • Lisa Davidson
                            DD: If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?) I once took a two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the real way on copper plates
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              DD:
                              If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?) I once took a
                              two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the "real" way on
                              copper plates with aquatint, etc., i.e., the kind of photogravure
                              that is a major pain, not Solarplate, or whatever. The teacher
                              mentioned burnt plate oil, and I asked him what it was. He said it
                              was a kind of oil. Well, OK, helpful enough in a way, meaning "I'm
                              in a hurry." My question really is a physical one. If you heat oil
                              until it catches on fire, why would the residue even be usable? How
                              do they make it? That's probably not in a printmaking book, or is
                              it? As you heat the oil, I am guessing that the most volatile
                              fractions will burn off, leaving the less volatile fractions? So you
                              work your way down to a kind of heavy machine oil? But where do the
                              combustion byproducts go? I assume they remain in the oil. Do they
                              filter it or refine it before they sell it to printmakers? Do these
                              combustion byproducts actually look good, like you could mix them
                              with regular old ink and they would improve the appearance? I
                              thought it was just to make the ink more fluid and workable. Thus my
                              question . . . .

                              On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:

                              > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                              > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                              > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                              > distillates.
                              >
                              > It's called "burnt," because it is BURNT. "Plate" is a reference to
                              > the intaglio matrix. Burnt plate oil is the traditional vehicle in
                              > printing ink, and is/was created by heating raw linseed oil until it
                              > spontaneously combusts and reduces to a thickened mass. Ink making,
                              > commonly done in-house prior to the nineteenth century, was known to
                              > be a hazardous endeavour and the cause of many fires in printshops.
                              >
                              > Incidentally, "boiled" linseed oil, as I understand it, is/was
                              > heat-bodied (not burnt) and doped with a dryer, such as litharge.
                              >
                              > I learned that from reading books, specifically contemporary and
                              > antique manuals and treatises on printing and printmaking. Very handy.
                              > Not sure what the Standard Internet Definitions are.
                              >
                              > Duncan Dempster
                              > Honolulu, Hawaii
                              >
                              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                              > <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you
                              > get is
                              > > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                              > > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                              > >
                              > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                              > > >
                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > > From: Lisa Davidson
                              > > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                              > > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                              > > >
                              > > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but
                              > they
                              > > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn
                              > into a
                              > > > tarry mass, etc.?
                              > > >
                              > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Lisa Davidson wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Can anyone tell me what burnt plate oil is? Why is it called
                              > burnt,
                              > > > > and why is it called plate?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Lisa
                              > > > >
                              > > > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Peter Fraterdeus wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > > Perhaps the important question is the volatility of the
                              > fractions
                              > > > > > which will evaporate as the ink dries.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Heavier, less refined, oils (hydrocarbons) evaporate much more
                              > > > > > slowly, are not inflammable (will not ignite as vapors)
                              > > > > > So, boiled linseed or hemp oil, the most ancient of ink
                              > vehicles,
                              > > > > > can be mixed directly with pigments without solvent, and
                              > will take
                              > > > > > a very long time to dry. With other solvents and driers
                              > added the
                              > > > > > ink becomes less stiff, and dries more quickly, as the
                              > volatile
                              > > > > > fraction evaporates...
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Disclaimer: I'm not an ink scientist!
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > P
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > At 5:13 PM +0000 10 04 08, okintertype wrote:
                              > > > > > >In simple terms, ink, like paint, is composed of pigment,
                              > vehicle
                              > > > > > >(resin) and solvent in varying degrees and types. If the
                              > > > solvent is
                              > > > > > >not water, then it is a hydrocarbon (compounds containing
                              > > > hydrogen
                              > > > > > >and carbone). The resins are always hydrocarbons. Pigments
                              > can be
                              > > > > > >hydrocarbons or inorganic (no carbon present). I guess
                              > what you
                              > > > > want
                              > > > > > >to know does dried ink contain hydrocarbons. The answer is
                              > yes.
                              > > > > > >Stan
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --
                              > > > > > AzByCx DwEvFu GtHsIr JqKpLo MnNmOl PkQjRi ShTgUf VeWdXc YbZa&@
                              > > > > > {ARTQ: Help stop in-box bloat! Always Remember to Trim the
                              > Quote!}
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > ExquisiteLetterpress http://www.slowprint.com
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lisa Davidson
                              Thank you, Fritz! The correct vitamin, as always. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                Thank you, Fritz! The correct vitamin, as always.

                                On Apr 11, 2008, at 12:14 AM, nagraph1 wrote:

                                > An excellent book is Printing Inks, by Carleton Ellis, 1940, Reinhold
                                > Publishing. I got my copy on ebay.
                                >
                                > Fritz
                                >
                                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                > <lisaxdavidson@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > How about a title or two, please?
                                > >
                                > > On Apr 10, 2008, at 11:10 PM, splitflexi wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Lamp black, or carbon black, is considered a probable carcinogen.
                                > > > Traditionally collected from oil-burning lamps (linseed? whale?
                                > > > walnut?), today made by incomplete combustion of petroleum
                                > > > distillates.
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Frederick Smith
                                It is. I was recalling a method I had read about where they delliberately burned some sort of oil (lamp oil, kerosene?) to produce it in quantity. It involved,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                  It is. I was recalling a method I had read about where they delliberately burned some sort of oil (lamp oil, kerosene?) to produce it in quantity. It involved, or so I remember, dripping the oil on a heated plate, then passing the fumes through some sort of condensing/filter aparatus. If I'm off base here, I apologise.

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Lisa Davidson
                                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:51 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks


                                  I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                                  called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                                  It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.

                                  On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:

                                  > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Lisa Davidson
                                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                                  >
                                  > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                                  > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                                  > tarry mass, etc.?



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                                • Lisa Davidson
                                  That s very interesting. I didn t know about that. Apologise? God no. Why? Thank you for telling me a simple answer and not saying I m lazy and stupid
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                    That's very interesting. I didn't know about that.
                                    Apologise? God no.
                                    Why?
                                    Thank you for telling me a simple answer and not saying I'm lazy and
                                    stupid because I didn't read a book! That weighs on me a bit. The
                                    possibility of its being the wrong answer is hardly relevant.

                                    On Apr 11, 2008, at 5:22 AM, Frederick Smith wrote:

                                    > It is. I was recalling a method I had read about where they
                                    > delliberately burned some sort of oil (lamp oil, kerosene?) to
                                    > produce it in quantity. It involved, or so I remember, dripping the
                                    > oil on a heated plate, then passing the fumes through some sort of
                                    > condensing/filter aparatus. If I'm off base here, I apologise.
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Lisa Davidson
                                    > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:51 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                                    >
                                    > I thought if you hold a spoon in a candle flame, the stuff you get is
                                    > called lamp black, which wipes right off and doesn't hurt anything.
                                    > It's just pure carbon, as I was told anyway.
                                    >
                                    > On Apr 10, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Frederick Smith wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Maybe they mean something similar to 'Lamp Black"?
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: Lisa Davidson
                                    > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:27 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks
                                    > >
                                    > > Well, I mean, I've seen the standard Internet definitions, but they
                                    > > don't really explain it. i.e., why would it burn and not turn into a
                                    > > tarry mass, etc.?
                                    >
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                                  • splitflexi
                                    ... Traité des Manières de Graver en Taille-Douce... -- Abraham Bosse New Ways of Gravure -- Stanley William Hayter
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                      <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > How about a title or two, please?


                                      Traité des Manières de Graver en Taille-Douce... -- Abraham Bosse

                                      New Ways of Gravure -- Stanley William Hayter
                                    • splitflexi
                                      ... Thanks, but not required :) ... Yeah, the volatile components burn off and evaporate meaning out into the atmosphere. It darkens as it becomes more
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
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                                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                        <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > DD:
                                        > If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?)

                                        Thanks, but not required :)


                                        > two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the "real" way on
                                        > copper plates with aquatint, etc., i.e., the kind of photogravure
                                        > that is a major pain, not Solarplate, or whatever. The teacher
                                        > mentioned burnt plate oil, and I asked him what it was. He said it
                                        > was a kind of oil. Well, OK, helpful enough in a way, meaning "I'm
                                        > in a hurry." My question really is a physical one. If you heat oil
                                        > until it catches on fire, why would the residue even be usable? How
                                        > do they make it? That's probably not in a printmaking book, or is
                                        > it? As you heat the oil, I am guessing that the most volatile
                                        > fractions will burn off, leaving the less volatile fractions? Soyou
                                        > work your way down to a kind of heavy machine oil? But where do the
                                        > combustion byproducts go? I assume they remain in the oil. Do they
                                        > filter it or refine it before they sell it to printmakers?

                                        Yeah, the volatile components burn off and evaporate meaning out into
                                        the atmosphere. It darkens as it becomes more thickened, so maybe that
                                        represents some residue. I understand that it can be clarified a bit
                                        with an alkali. You might want to consult a chemist to get more in
                                        depth. I find that this is about all I need to understand to
                                        successfully use ink (maybe even less!)


                                        Do these
                                        > combustion byproducts actually look good, like you could mix them
                                        > with regular old ink and they would improve the appearance? I
                                        > thought it was just to make the ink more fluid and workable. Thus my
                                        > question . . . .

                                        I don't understand the question about improving the appearance of ink,
                                        or "regular old ink." This viscous oil is used in two ways: 1) To
                                        provide the primary body of the ink (in the case of the thickest
                                        grades), and 2) to adjust the viscosity and working qualities of the
                                        ink for specific techniques (like, say, photogravure).
                                      • Mike Anderson
                                        Good site to learn a bit about Burnt Plate Oil. http://www.northernlightstudio.com/burnoil.php ... From: splitflexi To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Good site to learn a bit about "Burnt Plate Oil."

                                          http://www.northernlightstudio.com/burnoil.php


                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: splitflexi
                                          To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 4:26 PM
                                          Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Inks


                                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                          <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > DD:
                                          > If I need to give more credentials, here they are. (?)

                                          Thanks, but not required :)

                                          > two week long live-in course in photogravure, done the "real" way on
                                          > copper plates with aquatint, etc., i.e., the kind of photogravure
                                          > that is a major pain, not Solarplate, or whatever. The teacher
                                          > mentioned burnt plate oil, and I asked him what it was. He said it
                                          > was a kind of oil. Well, OK, helpful enough in a way, meaning "I'm
                                          > in a hurry." My question really is a physical one. If you heat oil
                                          > until it catches on fire, why would the residue even be usable? How
                                          > do they make it? That's probably not in a printmaking book, or is
                                          > it? As you heat the oil, I am guessing that the most volatile
                                          > fractions will burn off, leaving the less volatile fractions? Soyou
                                          > work your way down to a kind of heavy machine oil? But where do the
                                          > combustion byproducts go? I assume they remain in the oil. Do they
                                          > filter it or refine it before they sell it to printmakers?

                                          Yeah, the volatile components burn off and evaporate meaning out into
                                          the atmosphere. It darkens as it becomes more thickened, so maybe that
                                          represents some residue. I understand that it can be clarified a bit
                                          with an alkali. You might want to consult a chemist to get more in
                                          depth. I find that this is about all I need to understand to
                                          successfully use ink (maybe even less!)

                                          Do these
                                          > combustion byproducts actually look good, like you could mix them
                                          > with regular old ink and they would improve the appearance? I
                                          > thought it was just to make the ink more fluid and workable. Thus my
                                          > question . . . .

                                          I don't understand the question about improving the appearance of ink,
                                          or "regular old ink." This viscous oil is used in two ways: 1) To
                                          provide the primary body of the ink (in the case of the thickest
                                          grades), and 2) to adjust the viscosity and working qualities of the
                                          ink for specific techniques (like, say, photogravure).





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • splitflexi
                                          ... Wow, did i say that? You might want to try taking people s responses at face value and not impugn their motivations, especially if you want simple answers
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 11, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Davidson
                                            <lisaxdavidson@...> wrote:

                                            > Thank you for telling me a simple answer and not saying I'm lazy and
                                            > stupid because I didn't read a book! That weighs on me a bit.

                                            Wow, did i say that? You might want to try taking people's responses
                                            at face value and not impugn their motivations, especially if you want
                                            simple answers to arcane questions, free and on demand.
                                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.