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Expert fonts for idiots?

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  • Katie Harper
    Someone mentioned expert fonts, and I have a question because I think I must not be using them correctly. In the case where one is using upper and lower case
    Message 1 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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      Someone mentioned expert fonts, and I have a question because I think I must
      not be using them correctly. In the case where one is using upper and lower
      case type and wants to use old style (ie, lowercase) numerals, it appears
      that the only way to do this is to separately select the numbers (or cap for
      swash, etc.) and apply the expert style. Is this the right procedure? It's
      rather a pain, especially with a large block of text.

      From my research, my own guess is that this IS the way of things, and that
      (for one thing) is why Open Type is supposed to be so much better, since the
      special characters are (or will be) accessible automatically...??




      Katie Harper
      Ars Brevis Press
      Cincinnati, OH
      513-233-9588
      http://www.arsbrevispress.com
    • Bruce Kennett Studio
      ... i m sure others will weigh in with a much more detailed explanation, but i d say it depends on the fonts. for example, i have sabon and galliard with o.s.
      Message 2 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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        >it appears
        >that the only way to do this is to separately select the numbers (or cap for
        >swash, etc.) and apply the expert style. Is this the right procedure? It's
        >rather a pain, especially with a large block of text.

        i'm sure others will weigh in with a much more detailed explanation,
        but i'd say it depends on the fonts. for example, i have sabon and
        galliard with o.s. figs as a standard part of the rom font, but with
        many other book types i have to do just as you describe. and isn't it
        annoying that jobs and wozniak allowed for fi and fl but didn't think
        ffi, ffi, and ff mattered? so we have some inthe main font and others
        only in the expert. grrrr.

        one workaround i've used with great success for longer runs of copy
        is to do a search-and-replace in xpress, changing one numeral at a
        time, and specifying rom vs ital, point size, etc. with this approach
        you can do a 256-page book in just a few minutes, although you have
        to be methodical. one of those amazing powers of the computer: you
        sit back for a few moments as the machine goes b-r-r-r-r-r-r-p! and
        says, "1,278 instances changed."

        i only know xpress (and passport) so i'm not sure but i imagine the
        other apps such as indesign and pagemaker do this as well

        many years ago i also tried swapping the numerals in fontographer,
        putting o.s. figs in where the lining figs had been, and thus making
        a new font, but i was unsteady enough with that application (or maybe
        it was fontmonger) that i decided to just stick with the
        search-and-replace thing. too many issues with the font i.d. numbers,
        messed up side bearings and so forth, in a case where i knew just
        enough to be dangerous.

        bruce
        --


        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Bruce Kennett Studio
        1234 West Side Road
        North Conway NH 03860
        Phone 603-447-2338
        Fax 603-447-5510
        www.brucekennettstudio.com
        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      • Gerald Lange
        Katie Yes, this is essentially how you would do that. Except that you are not applying the expert style you are selecting the expert font. Same as you should
        Message 3 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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          Katie

          Yes, this is essentially how you would do that. Except that you are not
          "applying the expert style" you are selecting the expert font. Same as
          you should be doing, ahem, when you use an italic or bold version of a
          font. As much as a pain as this may seem, um, remember hand composition?

          Also, PostScript Type 1 fonts (one to another, even in the same
          "family") do not share kerning pairs so manual kerning or adjustment of
          word spaces is order when you are intermixing fonts and even if you are
          adjusting sizes of characters one to another.

          I don't find this kind of thing as laborious as a lot of folks might
          because I spent a great many years at the composing stand. I really
          enjoy working with computer typesetting not because it is easier or that
          I can perform whiz bang tricks, but because I can replicate and even
          greatly enhance the finer points of hand composition. Plus the really
          great advantage is you never, ever, have to distribute!

          Gerald


          Katie Harper wrote:

          >Someone mentioned expert fonts, and I have a question because I think I must
          >not be using them correctly. In the case where one is using upper and lower
          >case type and wants to use old style (ie, lowercase) numerals, it appears
          >that the only way to do this is to separately select the numbers (or cap for
          >swash, etc.) and apply the expert style. Is this the right procedure? It's
          >rather a pain, especially with a large block of text.
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Katie Harper
          Hear, hear! Katie Plus the really
          Message 4 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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            Hear, hear!

            Katie


            Plus the really
            > great advantage is you never, ever, have to distribute!
            >
            > Gerald
            >
            >
          • Dan Franklin
            If you re comfortable mixing fonts in Fontographer or FontLab, you can make super-old-style text fonts by gleaning characters from the Expert set, for
            Message 5 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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              If you're comfortable mixing fonts in Fontographer or FontLab, you
              can make super-old-style text fonts by gleaning characters from the
              Expert set, for instance, by substituting old-style figures and
              adding ff, ffi, ffl ligatures and ct, st ligatures in unused or
              little-used character positions. (Be sure that you always put the
              same character (say, ffl) in the same keyboard position (say, ¥) in
              fonts that you create.)

              If you use Quark, you still have to search/replace the ligatures. You
              can do this in Applescript with a fairly simple script, along the
              lines of ...

              for every text where it is "ffl"
              set text to "¥"

              With patience and care, you can even create a font with old-style
              figures that horizontally align (for numbered lists, etc.). Here you
              are changing widths and sidebearings, but being methodical can
              produce excellent results.

              If you're skittish about using Fontographer but not skittish about
              using Applescript, you can tell the Quark document to go to an Expert
              font for certain characters, like ...

              for every text where it is "ffl"
              set text to "Z"
              if the font of text is Bembo Bold
              set font to Bembo BoldExpert
              else if the font of text is Bembo Italic
              set font to Bembo ItalicExpert

              Such a script can be used over and over by using variables for the
              font names and declaring them only once at the top of the script. A
              script can execute all these changes in less than a second on a
              good-sized chapter. And if you want to decide on a case-by-case basis
              whether to use, say, an st ligature (think "Christmastide"--do you
              really want 2 st ligs there?), you can pause the script and type Y
              for change and N for no-change.

              Of course, if you use Adobe InDesign and have OpenType fonts, you can
              turn old-style figures on and off at will or whimsy.
            • Gerald Lange
              Dan Thanks for the info about Apple Scripts. ... For folks who are a bit comfortable, I ve put a PDF of a simple FL font modification sequence (letterpress
              Message 6 of 9 , May 1, 2003
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                Dan

                Thanks for the info about Apple Scripts.

                > If you're comfortable mixing fonts in Fontographer or FontLab....

                For folks who are a bit comfortable, I've put a PDF of a "simple" FL
                font modification sequence (letterpress configuration) in the How-To
                Files. I'm much more familiar with FOG but would appreciate input from
                anyone regarding the FL sequence. It works, but constructive criticism
                would be helpful.

                Thanks

                Gerald
              • Jessica Spring
                Katie-- A trick I ve used for large jobs is to set the text then use the find/replace feature for each numeral. It s much faster than doing them individually.
                Message 7 of 9 , May 2, 2003
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                  Katie--
                  A trick I've used for large jobs is to set the text then use the
                  find/replace feature for each numeral. It's much faster than doing them
                  individually.
                  --Jessica

                  > From: Katie Harper <knharper@...>
                  > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 21:38:11 -0400
                  > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Expert fonts for idiots?
                  >
                  > Someone mentioned expert fonts, and I have a question because I think I must
                  > not be using them correctly. In the case where one is using upper and lower
                  > case type and wants to use old style (ie, lowercase) numerals, it appears
                  > that the only way to do this is to separately select the numbers (or cap for
                  > swash, etc.) and apply the expert style. Is this the right procedure? It's
                  > rather a pain, especially with a large block of text.
                  >
                  > From my research, my own guess is that this IS the way of things, and that
                  > (for one thing) is why Open Type is supposed to be so much better, since the
                  > special characters are (or will be) accessible automatically...??
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Katie Harper
                  > Ars Brevis Press
                  > Cincinnati, OH
                  > 513-233-9588
                  > http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                • Carole Aldrich
                  Katie One thing you could do is set up a character style for the expert font, assign it a keystroke (one not likely to be used by anything else, then switch to
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 2, 2003
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                    Katie

                    One thing you could do is set up a character style for the expert
                    font, assign it a keystroke (one not likely to be used by anything
                    else, then switch to the style, type the character, switch back to
                    the text style. I know you can do this in Quark, and believe in
                    InDesign also. It would be sort of like the old days when fonts and
                    font sizes and styles were entered from the keyboard with commands in
                    the old phototypesetting equipment.
                    --
                    Carole M Aldrich
                    Voice 909.625.7722
                    Fax 909.625.9822
                    carolealdrich@...

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • funquie
                    That s the problem with expert fonts. So many bits of type, and only so few ASCII codes to spread them around under. And since most people these days don t
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 2, 2003
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                      That's the problem with expert fonts. So many bits of type, and only
                      so few ASCII codes to spread them around under. And since most people
                      these days don't like "old style" numerals, it's almost mandatory for
                      typehouses to include both sorts of numbers (lining and old-style).

                      I have Expert sets for Poetica, Garamond, and Caslon. In all these
                      sets, there are lining and old-style figures. And to get the old-style
                      figs, I must apply a different font to the numbers.

                      It's a pain, but no more of a pain than hand-setting type in two or
                      three different styles (bold, ital, roman, old-style, etc.)

                      We (typographers and designers) have gotten VERY lazy since the advent
                      of computers, and when a minor glitch like this comes around, it seems
                      like a MAJOR deal. In the days of lead type, if your font had lining
                      figures and you wanted old style, you'd have to order them from a
                      foundry, IF they were available, then sit back and wait for a few
                      weeks while they shipped, most likely via train...

                      --Richard Creighton
                      "Dreamer Press"
                      Martinsburg WV
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