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Re: [PPLetterpress] Recent Adobe issue and PPL

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  • Harold Kyle
    Identification of separations (whether spot or process) is simple. Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is difficult.
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 9, 2013
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      Identification of separations (whether spot or process) is simple. 

      Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is difficult. Determining how to spread or choke two or more separations that touch each other with halftones is extremely difficult. The number crunching behind this has traditionally been done (and presumably patented) by prepress software vendors. None has open sourced their work to my knowledge. 

      The developers of Ghostscript have identified "In-RIP trapping" as an area in need of developers. They don't expect anyone to step up to the plate at this point. But, if you're a math genius with time on your hands by all means have at it!

      Thanks
      Harold


      On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Michael Metz <mtmetz@...> wrote:
       

      Harold, Gerald, Michael et. al,

      Does one need to identify spot colors to create binary plates?

      Mike



      From: Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 2:51 PM

      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Recent Adobe issue and PPL

       
      On Dec 8, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Harold Kyle wrote:

      > Unless you were writing in TeX or raw Postscript, I doubt the non-cloud design software on your hard drive is yours anyway. Meaning, for instance, Adobe owns it and has granted you license to use it in a specific manner. Adobe will likely try to make whatever tool you bought obsolete by changing their proprietary formats anyways. Until there's a community of print designers making and freely sharing their design tools (as has happened with web design for instance) there is no way out of this cycle of dependance.

      I think Adobe have finally pushed their position too hard. Before, there were at least semi-viable competing titles. These days, Quark's capabilities have fallen so far behind InDesign's capabilities they really aren't comparable software anymore. There are so many people so pissed at Adobe for this kind of thing that I think it's inevitable that there will be some new competition soon.

      > Print still has a ways to go before it has open source tools that could compete with Adobe's. Boxcar had started to build its own print output software based on Ghostscript last year (results of which are on our website as the platemaking plate preview) but was unable to make a standalone RIP because there was no FOSS trapping library for spot colors...that I could find anyway.

      Yes, spots are the problem. All the libraries are privately owned by for-profit entities and must be licensed. This is the problem Scribus has.
      --
      Michael Hurley Titivilus Press
      123 North Holmes St. titiviluspress@...
      Memphis, TN 38111 (901) 831-7640






      --
      Boxcar Press
      509 W. Fayette St. #135
      Syracuse, NY  13204
    • erik spiekermann
      ... unintended pun? e
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 9, 2013
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        On 09.12.2013, at 18:33, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:

        > They don't expect anyone to step up to the plate at this point.
        unintended pun?

        e


        | prof. dr. erik spiekermann
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      • bielerpr
        Well. I really can t beat that though I do have a couple of older Mac towers that are certainly capable of doing whatever works needs to be done. Back in 1992
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 9, 2013
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          Well. I really can't beat that though I do have a couple of older Mac towers that are certainly capable of doing whatever works needs to be done. 


          Back in 1992 I published my first book printed from photoploymer plates, using a Mac SE/30, some of the early Adobe Originals, and good old Aldus PageMaker 4.01. Fine Print declared it the first photopholymer plate produced to break through the typographic idiocy of the time and look like a traditional book printed with metal type, which was of course, my intention.


          I really can't say, looking at the book today, as far as the book essentials go, nothing has changed. The machines are more sophisticated, faster, etc. The software easier, less problematic? Only problem between then and now, they got rid of the machines and the software. It worked to do what we still do.


          A fellow on another list was suggested that if the internet was ever to crash, get destroyed, etc., we would lose our ability to print freely as in the metal days. I had to remind him we don't need the internet to print, as long as you are not totally tied into the mobile concept of the internet. And they have certainly done their best to keep those old towers and gray desktops off the internet, haven't they.


          I believe it was Bill Gates who thought the internet would never be of consequence to computing, and Steve Jobs, of all people, who said that images, photos, etc., would never come to much on the internet. Old days, of course.


          Thanks for the iPhone and iOS, Steve.


          Gerald

        • Kim Vanderheiden
          I wonder how much it would cost to pay a recent MIT grad to do it - could it be raised with a kickstarter campaign? Could people who don t use trapping use the
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 10, 2013
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            I wonder how much it would cost to pay a recent MIT grad to do it - could it be raised with a kickstarter campaign? 

            Could people who don't use trapping use the software without that feature? 

            Kim Vanderheiden



            Mon Dec 9, 2013 9:34 am (PST) . Posted by:

            "Harold Kyle" boxcarpress




            Identification of separations (whether spot or process) is simple.

            Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is
            difficult. Determining how to spread or choke two *or more* separations
            that touch each other *with halftones *is *extremely *difficult. The number
            crunching behind this has traditionally been done (and presumably patented)
            by prepress software vendors. None has open sourced their work to my
            knowledge.

            The developers of Ghostscript have identified "In-RIP
            trapping<http://ghostscript.com/doc/7.07/Projects.htm#Graphics_functionality>"
            as an area in need of developers. They don't expect anyone to step up to
            the plate at this point. But, if you're a math genius with time on your
            hands by all means *have at it!*

            Thanks
            Harold
          • Harold Kyle
            Ha, nice, Erik. Unintended indeed...plates on the mind I guess. Kickstarter might be the only hope. If someone can garner interest in this obscure library s
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 10, 2013
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              Ha, nice, Erik. Unintended indeed...plates on the mind I guess.

              Kickstarter might be the only hope. If someone can garner interest in this obscure library's inability to choke or spread artwork when producing printing plate separations, more power to them!

              Ghostscript is very useful even without this feature, and is used "under the hood" on many print drivers. Most output devices these days don't use printing plates (let alone spot colors) and thus don't need trapping. There is little need for this feature and less so every year. The shame is that this problem has probably been independently solved by dozens of prepress vendors, but not one has donated their code back to the community. 

              Anyway, back to printing, everyone!

              Thanks
              Harold


              On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Kim Vanderheiden <paintedtongue@...> wrote:
               

              I wonder how much it would cost to pay a recent MIT grad to do it - could it be raised with a kickstarter campaign? 


              Could people who don't use trapping use the software without that feature? 

              Kim Vanderheiden



              Mon Dec 9, 2013 9:34 am (PST) . Posted by:

              "Harold Kyle" boxcarpress




              Identification of separations (whether spot or process) is simple.

              Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is
              difficult. Determining how to spread or choke two *or more* separations
              that touch each other *with halftones *is *extremely *difficult. The number

              crunching behind this has traditionally been done (and presumably patented)
              by prepress software vendors. None has open sourced their work to my
              knowledge.

              The developers of Ghostscript have identified "In-RIP
              trapping<http://ghostscript.com/doc/7.07/Projects.htm#Graphics_functionality>"
              as an area in need of developers. They don't expect anyone to step up to

              the plate at this point. But, if you're a math genius with time on your
              hands by all means *have at it!*

              Thanks
              Harold




              --
              Boxcar Press
              509 W. Fayette St. #135
              Syracuse, NY  13204
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              ... Maybe Boxcar will be able to acquire the patents of one of these vendors when they go bankrupt ;-)
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 10, 2013
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                Most output devices these days don't use printing plates (let alone spot colors) and thus don't need trapping. There is little need for this feature and less so every year. 

                Maybe Boxcar will be able to acquire the patents of one of these vendors when they go bankrupt ;-)

                On 10 Dec 2013, at 8:10 AM, Harold Kyle wrote:



                Ha, nice, Erik. Unintended indeed...plates on the mind I guess.

                Kickstarter might be the only hope. If someone can garner interest in this obscure library's inability to choke or spread artwork when producing printing plate separations, more power to them!

                Ghostscript is very useful even without this feature, and is used "under the hood" on many print drivers. Most output devices these days don't use printing plates (let alone spot colors) and thus don't need trapping. There is little need for this feature and less so every year. The shame is that this problem has probably been independently solved by dozens of prepress vendors, but not one has donated their code back to the community. 

                Anyway, back to printing, everyone!

                Thanks
                Harold


                On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:00 AM, Kim Vanderheiden <paintedtongue@...> wrote:
                 

                I wonder how much it would cost to pay a recent MIT grad to do it - could it be raised with a kickstarter campaign? 


                Could people who don't use trapping use the software without that feature? 

                Kim Vanderheiden



                Mon Dec 9, 2013 9:34 am (PST) . Posted by:

                "Harold Kyle" boxcarpress




                Identification of separations (whether spot or process) is simple.

                Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is
                difficult. Determining how to spread or choke two *or more* separations
                that touch each other *with halftones *is *extremely *difficult. The number

                crunching behind this has traditionally been done (and presumably patented)
                by prepress software vendors. None has open sourced their work to my
                knowledge.

                The developers of Ghostscript have identified "In-RIP
                trapping<http://ghostscript.com/doc/7.07/Projects.htm#Graphics_functionality>"
                as an area in need of developers. They don't expect anyone to step up to

                the plate at this point. But, if you're a math genius with time on your
                hands by all means *have at it!*

                Thanks
                Harold




                -- 
                Boxcar Press
                509 W. Fayette St. #135
                Syracuse, NY  13204



              • parallel_imp
                In predigital photomechanical days it was a easy rule: you spread the
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 11, 2013
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                  <Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is difficult>

                  In predigital photomechanical days it was a easy rule: you spread the lighter color into the darker color; how much of a spread depended on intended press and stock. It was just simple darkroom work with contact film and diffusers based on experience with the result in the pressroom. But back then, nobody in his right mind would have printed a halftone on blotter paper, unless it was C-1S blotter and the printing was kissed on the coated side, unlike today. Different times, different morals, and formulae have been replaced with algorithms.

                  --Eric Holub, SF

                  (my latest shop motto: Obsolete In Every Way)



                  ---In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, <harold@...> wrote:

                  Identification of separations (whether spot or process) is simple. 

                  Determining how to spread or choke two separations that touch each other is difficult. Determining how to spread or choke two or more separations that touch each other with halftones is extremely difficult. The number crunching behind this has traditionally been done (and presumably patented) by prepress software vendors. None has open sourced their work to my knowledge. 

                  The developers of Ghostscript have identified "In-RIP trapping" as an area in need of developers. They don't expect anyone to step up to the plate at this point. But, if you're a math genius with time on your hands by all means have at it!

                  Thanks
                  Harold


                  On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Michael Metz <mtmetz@...> wrote:
                   
                  Harold, Gerald, Michael et. al,

                  Does one need to identify spot colors to create binary plates?

                  Mike



                  From: Michael Hurley <mephit@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 2:51 PM

                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Recent Adobe issue and PPL

                   
                  On Dec 8, 2013, at 1:15 PM, Harold Kyle wrote:

                  > Unless you were writing in TeX or raw Postscript, I doubt the non-cloud design software on your hard drive is yours anyway. Meaning, for instance, Adobe owns it and has granted you license to use it in a specific manner. Adobe will likely try to make whatever tool you bought obsolete by changing their proprietary formats anyways. Until there's a community of print designers making and freely sharing their design tools (as has happened with web design for instance) there is no way out of this cycle of dependance.

                  I think Adobe have finally pushed their position too hard. Before, there were at least semi-viable competing titles. These days, Quark's capabilities have fallen so far behind InDesign's capabilities they really aren't comparable software anymore. There are so many people so pissed at Adobe for this kind of thing that I think it's inevitable that there will be some new competition soon.

                  > Print still has a ways to go before it has open source tools that could compete with Adobe's. Boxcar had started to build its own print output software based on Ghostscript last year (results of which are on our website as the platemaking plate preview) but was unable to make a standalone RIP because there was no FOSS trapping library for spot colors...that I could find anyway.

                  Yes, spots are the problem. All the libraries are privately owned by for-profit entities and must be licensed. This is the problem Scribus has.
                  --
                  Michael Hurley Titivilus Press
                  123 North Holmes St. titiviluspress@...
                  Memphis, TN 38111 (901) 831-7640






                  --
                  Boxcar Press
                  509 W. Fayette St. #135
                  Syracuse, NY  13204
                • Maggie Reilly
                  Dear Letterpress Group, I am moving from Chelsea, NYC to Harlem, NYC. I am selling a Magazine Galley Cabinet with 100 drawers in excellent condition, plus 6
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 17, 2013
                  Dear Letterpress Group,
                  I am moving from Chelsea, NYC to Harlem, NYC. I am selling a Magazine Galley Cabinet with 100 drawers in excellent condition, plus 6 draws of Stymie metal type in various sizes from 6pt to 14pt. Also free line and screen cuts.
                  Thank you.
                  Maggie Reilly
                  646-637-1492



                  From: Harold Kyle <harold@...>
                  To: "PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com" <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 2:15 PM
                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Recent Adobe issue and PPL

                   
                  Unless you were writing in TeX or raw Postscript, I doubt the non-cloud design software on your hard drive is yours anyway. Meaning, for instance, Adobe owns it and has granted you license to use it in a specific manner. Adobe will likely try to make whatever tool you bought obsolete by changing their proprietary formats anyways. Until there's a community of print designers making and freely sharing their design tools (as has happened with web design for instance) there is no way out of this cycle of dependance. 

                  Print still has a ways to go before it has open source tools that could compete with Adobe's. Boxcar had started to build its own print output software based on Ghostscript last year (results of which are on our website as the platemaking plate preview) but was unable to make a standalone RIP because there was no FOSS trapping library for spot colors...that I could find anyway. 

                  Thanks
                  Harold


                  On Saturday, December 7, 2013, wrote:
                   
                  A client recent informed me she had some issues with registration of plates apparently due to Adobe's new selling strategies. She suspects the cloud is to blame. Lot of problems with Adobe these days, even hacking their new system, and the indenture slave issue. But why the cloud, how is that causing problems? After all it's just underground storage in New Jersey somewhere. Clever moniker though.

                  Keep your old software anyway, and why is anyone trusting that the cloud is actually okay?

                  Gerald


                  --
                  Boxcar Press
                  509 W. Fayette St. #135
                  Syracuse, NY  13204



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