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Re: Cleaning the washout unit

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  • Gerald Lange
    Peter Interesting your pointing out the difference in plate waste. I can t recall what Miraclon waste looks like (very old plate chemistry there) but by far
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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      Peter

      Interesting your pointing out the difference in plate waste. I can't recall what Miraclon waste looks like (very old plate chemistry there) but by far the worst that I have seen is BASF. Man, that bath water stinks. Great plates though. Toyobo waste sorts of look like you might expect it to, dissolved photopolymer. But yeah, it's a coater when allowed to sit. Jet plate waste looks like dishwater to me, suds and all, probably the cleanest of all. Just don't like the plates all that much.

      The fellow that I know with the septic system in northern California drains his (Toyobo) waste into an outside trough and lets it sit until the liquid drys out. California sun and all that. Then, every once and a while he shovels out the remaining material and disposes of it at the local dump.

      Sounds like you have it down.

      Gerald

      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi guys,
      >
      >
      > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
      >
      > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
      >
      > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
      >
      > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
      >
      > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
      >
      > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
      >
      >
      > PC.
      >
    • Gerald Lange
      Hi Harold I suspect the difference between manufacturers recommending either keeping the bath full of water with the brush submerged or draining the bath and
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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        Hi Harold

        I suspect the difference between manufacturers recommending either keeping the bath full of water with the brush submerged or draining the bath and letting the brush dry out actually depends upon the type of brush used in the machine(?) The US made A&V machines I've seen use horsehair brushes, not synthetic material. They have to dry out or the brushes are subject to rot or attack from fungi/mildew.

        Gerald

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
        >
        > The best suggestion is to talk with your municipality's waste treatment
        > center. In our case in Syracuse, particulates such as photopolymer residue
        > are easily filtered mechanically at the metropolitan wastewater facility.
        > Septic systems are a problem, but I've never heard of a city or town's
        > wastewater facility encountering problems.
        >
        > As far as the bath's upkeep, at Boxcar we keep our photopolymer brushes
        > covered with water at all times. We usually recommend this to our customers
        > with machines as well. In the event that the machine is idle for any period
        > of time, we recommend adding a 1/2 cup of bleach to the bath to
        > retard...evolution.
        >
        > Hope that helps!
        > Harold
        >
        >
        > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Michael Hurley <mephit@...> wrote:
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Scott Rubel wrote:
        > >
        > > > A hell of a lot less than the byproducts of acid etching. I may not know
        > > much, but I'm pretty sure about this. --Scott
        > >
        > > I believe Boxcar has the MSDSs on all the plate materials they sell on
        > > their website. As I recall, they're mildly toxic in large doses (like if
        > > you were producing plates full time for multiple customers), but in the
        > > amounts you'd be washing down the drain in a private shop they're
        > > functionally inert and safe.
        > > --
        > > Michael Hurley Titivilus Press
        > > 123 North Holmes St. titiviluspress@...
        > > Memphis, TN 38111 (901) 831-7640
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Boxcar Press
        > 509 W. Fayette St. #135
        > Syracuse, NY 13204
        > www.boxcarpress.com
        >
      • Gerald Lange
        Joel I ll be up all night here on a project so no problem. I suspect the horsehair brushes do out last the synthetics (by a long shot from what I hear). Though
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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          Joel

          I'll be up all night here on a project so no problem. I suspect the horsehair brushes do out last the synthetics (by a long shot from what I hear). Though they are likely far more expensive. My original brush lasted 12 years before total collapse (sort of a one-horse shay type of incident). I replaced the second brush after four years, not because it needed it but I undertook a complete reconditioning of my platemaker this past winter over the holidays and thought a back up brush wouldn't be a bad idea. So I installed new brushes and boxed up the other, just in case. I love my "new machine." Right on the money, every day.

          Gerald

          >
          > I suspect the difference between manufacturers recommending either keeping the bath full of water with the brush submerged or draining the bath and letting the brush dry out actually depends upon the type of brush used in the machine(?) The US made A&V machines I've seen use horsehair brushes, not synthetic material. They have to dry out or the brushes are subject to rot or attack from fungi/mildew.
          >
          > Gerald
          >
          >
        • jonathanjeclipse
          That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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            That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated
            I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around with a couple of Flint Corp/BASF plates, and even just unwrapped we can smell their essence? in the air and after washing-must check out their data sheet to see if there are more volatile/hazardous? components in case we use them a lot more--I really like that Tyobo change colour according to what stage in the making they have reached, I don't think I am imagining that !-has anyone else experience of Flint plates, they certainly seem to swell up easily and quickly go to the base, cf with Miraclon which seems to be a more gradual process:this when we use the Miraclon d73s for polymer intaglio (as well as letterpress), so found that BASF could not hold the sensitive tones in the surface when making plates for intaglio, yes of course polymer plates are not really designed/ formulated for this but somehow it works, AKA "solar" platemaking(personally I feel that name is not appropiate, better to state the objective ie making a photopolymer intaglio plate)....
            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi guys,
            >
            >
            > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
            >
            > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
            >
            > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
            >
            > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
            >
            > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
            >
            > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
            >
            >
            > PC.
            >
          • Peter Bruce
            Gerald, Actually, you re right my mistake - it wasn t Miraclon but the Jet plates that are supposed to be okay in the UK for flushing into sewage. Regulations
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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              Gerald,

              Actually, you're right my mistake - it wasn't Miraclon but the Jet plates that are supposed to be okay in the UK for flushing into sewage. Regulations are very tight here, anything chemical is a no-no. Not impressed with them either though (no pun intended).

              The problem seems to be the aggregating nature of polymer, it will build to a blockage it seems - anyway we ain't taking the risk with these guys, we'll continue to bag it and bin it.

              I'll hang on to the vinegar tip.


              PC
            • Gerald Lange
              Jonathan There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. I think it is a great aid in processing as
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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                Jonathan

                There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. I think it is a great aid in processing as it is more visually revealing of possible problems. It also aids in alignment on the base during the prepress stage. Plus, it just looks more sophisticated than that all bland yellow of the cheaper brands.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjeclipse" <jonathanjeclipse@...> wrote:
                >
                > That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated
                > I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around with a couple of Flint Corp/BASF plates, and even just unwrapped we can smell their essence? in the air and after washing-must check out their data sheet to see if there are more volatile/hazardous? components in case we use them a lot more--I really like that Tyobo change colour according to what stage in the making they have reached, I don't think I am imagining that !-has anyone else experience of Flint plates, they certainly seem to swell up easily and quickly go to the base, cf with Miraclon which seems to be a more gradual process:this when we use the Miraclon d73s for polymer intaglio (as well as letterpress), so found that BASF could not hold the sensitive tones in the surface when making plates for intaglio, yes of course polymer plates are not really designed/ formulated for this but somehow it works, AKA "solar" platemaking(personally I feel that name is not appropiate, better to state the objective ie making a photopolymer intaglio plate)....
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi guys,
                > >
                > >
                > > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
                > >
                > > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
                > >
                > > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
                > >
                > > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
                > >
                > > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
                > >
                > > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
                > >
                > >
                > > PC.
                > >
                >
              • Eric
                ... The all-yellow Miraclons are certainly a problem when you try to distinguish surface from body from base. That is one reason I ve liked the HX Rigilon,
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 29, 2012
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                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jonathan
                  >
                  > There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. [...] it just looks more sophisticated than that all bland yellow of the cheaper brands.

                  The all-yellow Miraclons are certainly a problem when you try to distinguish surface from body from base. That is one reason I've liked the HX Rigilon, because of the distinct green-colored surface (which is also matte for better drawdown). However, I have been told it is unavailable since the tsunami.
                  At my old job they used MLD until Anderson-Vreeland switched it without explanation for Rigilon, which I much preferred, and now I hear they have been switched back to MLD. But MLD, at least back in the mid-90s, had a shorter shelflife, becoming brittle and fracturing while still in the light-safe box.
                  --Eric Holub, SF
                • Jonathan Jarvis
                  Agreed-best wishes
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 2, 2012
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                    Agreed-best wishes


                    From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>;
                    To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>;
                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Cleaning the washout unit
                    Sent: Thu, Nov 29, 2012 6:10:59 AM

                     

                    Jonathan

                    There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. I think it is a great aid in processing as it is more visually revealing of possible problems. It also aids in alignment on the base during the prepress stage. Plus, it just looks more sophisticated than that all bland yellow of the cheaper brands.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjeclipse" <jonathanjeclipse@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated
                    > I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around with a couple of Flint Corp/BASF plates, and even just unwrapped we can smell their essence? in the air and after washing-must check out their data sheet to see if there are more volatile/hazardous? components in case we use them a lot more--I really like that Tyobo change colour according to what stage in the making they have reached, I don't think I am imagining that !-has anyone else experience of Flint plates, they certainly seem to swell up easily and quickly go to the base, cf with Miraclon which seems to be a more gradual process:this when we use the Miraclon d73s for polymer intaglio (as well as letterpress), so found that BASF could not hold the sensitive tones in the surface when making plates for intaglio, yes of course polymer plates are not really designed/ formulated for this but somehow it works, AKA "solar" platemaking(personally I feel that name is not appropiate, better to state the objective ie making a photopolymer intaglio plate)....
                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi guys,
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
                    > >
                    > > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
                    > >
                    > > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
                    > >
                    > > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
                    > >
                    > > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
                    > >
                    > > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > PC.
                    > >
                    >

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