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Re: Cleaning the washout unit

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  • Gerald Lange
    Peter I was inspected once by Federal authorities due to PCP contamination from a company that operated in the neighborhood about twenty years earlier. They
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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      Peter

      I was inspected once by Federal authorities due to PCP contamination from a company that operated in the neighborhood about twenty years earlier. They were drilling in the parking lot and various business establishments, marking off areas etc, and visiting all the businesses in the area. They checked out my solvents, how they were kept, and looked at the platemaking room. The only thing they found disturbing was this large black spot on my cement floor. It was were I invariably spill my first cup of coffee in the morning. They looked at me, with that sort of what expression and I explained that I kind of liked the look of it so I left it alone. They left. I have that effect on authorities.

      Photopolymer waste primarily consists of carbon molecules. Polymers are organic in nature. It does not last long in the sewer system as it is a food source for the wee folks down there. Same as your dodo. They do monitor waste water for contaminants in LA. Far worse are the household cleaning chemicals flushed daily into the system.

      You can check MSD sheets of the plates that you use... Only instance that I have ever heard it outlawed was in septic tanks in rural northern California. That was more a concern for possible blockage than contamination. Sort of in this regard, I have read that polymers have been flushed into old systems to coat the insides of pipes to prevent lead contamination of the water supply.

      Gerald



      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Inquiring minds have been pondering what the EPA might have said about photopolymer in the liquid waste stream. Certainly, in this part of the world, it goes straight to the sewers and thus to sewage treatment with all the rest. I tried looking this up once without much success...
      >
      > What are the byproducts of photopolymer after it degrades?
      >
      > •=^=•=^=•=^=•=^=•=^=•=^=•=^=•=^=
      > Peter Fraterdeus
      > Slowprint.com / Semiotx.com
      > Voice Mail & Text 563-223-8231
      >
      > On Nov 27, 2012, at 1:39 AM, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Just a further note on this. Vinegar isn't going to help eradicate organic material per se, well, since it is organic. It does support, after all, the existence of the vinegar worm. Not that you would ever find one in a bottle of vinegar. But it does help clean out mineral deposits. I use it for cleaning the deposits out of the water heater and the coffee pot. Since it is acidic it is useful in that regard in the bath. It is, however, no end all. Diluted muriatic acid would serve the same purpose, just like in swimming pools.
      > >
      > > Gerald
      > >
      > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
      > >>
      > >> Eric
      > >>
      > >> A&V recommends a cup of vinegar with their A2 units. It's in the manual and it's what tech support recommends. I think it primarily changes the Ph of the bath. A long while back a member wrote that it helped quite a bit as he was using well water in his unit.
      > >>
      > >> I assume it also helps reduce mineral deposits as it is a well known cleaner in this regard. I can't see that it would increase bath life in any way. Once you have plate waste in the bath nature begins its work.
      > >>
      > >> Some manufacturers recommend keeping the bath full and the brushes submerged. I assume that is a clean bath. That won't work for me as keeping the little critters at bay, as routine maintenance, is crucial.
      > >>
      > >> Techniques for chemical processing of liguid photopolymer aren't necessarily going to be transferable to processing water-based sheet photopolymer. Even processing flexo sheet plates requires a different configuration of your machine (soft water, higher bath temp. . .).
      > >>
      > >> Gerald
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <Megalonyx@> wrote:
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
      > >>>>
      > >>>> Just as a test I filled the bath of my platemaker Friday night and left it that way over the weekend. Monday morning there was white feathery growth around the edging of the brushes and black spotting on the metallic surfaces.
      > >>>
      > >>> Do you use plain water, or do you add a little vinegar?
      > >>> Several people have recommended that to me, but I was not sure if it was an aid to processing, bath life, or cleanup. Detergent is a necessary part of processing liquid photopolymer, not sure of its effect on sheet materal.
      > >>> These days I only make a few plates at a time, with long gaps in between, and always drain and rinse, and my synthetic brushes have not suffered at all from sitting clean and dry. I've already mentioned working in a shop where draining was discouraged until absolutely necessary, and where photopolymer crystallized on the fiber pad in that unit.
      > >>> --Eric Holub, SF
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Gerald Lange
      Peter Interesting your pointing out the difference in plate waste. I can t recall what Miraclon waste looks like (very old plate chemistry there) but by far
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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        Peter

        Interesting your pointing out the difference in plate waste. I can't recall what Miraclon waste looks like (very old plate chemistry there) but by far the worst that I have seen is BASF. Man, that bath water stinks. Great plates though. Toyobo waste sorts of look like you might expect it to, dissolved photopolymer. But yeah, it's a coater when allowed to sit. Jet plate waste looks like dishwater to me, suds and all, probably the cleanest of all. Just don't like the plates all that much.

        The fellow that I know with the septic system in northern California drains his (Toyobo) waste into an outside trough and lets it sit until the liquid drys out. California sun and all that. Then, every once and a while he shovels out the remaining material and disposes of it at the local dump.

        Sounds like you have it down.

        Gerald

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi guys,
        >
        >
        > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
        >
        > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
        >
        > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
        >
        > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
        >
        > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
        >
        > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
        >
        >
        > PC.
        >
      • Gerald Lange
        Hi Harold I suspect the difference between manufacturers recommending either keeping the bath full of water with the brush submerged or draining the bath and
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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          Hi Harold

          I suspect the difference between manufacturers recommending either keeping the bath full of water with the brush submerged or draining the bath and letting the brush dry out actually depends upon the type of brush used in the machine(?) The US made A&V machines I've seen use horsehair brushes, not synthetic material. They have to dry out or the brushes are subject to rot or attack from fungi/mildew.

          Gerald

          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
          >
          > The best suggestion is to talk with your municipality's waste treatment
          > center. In our case in Syracuse, particulates such as photopolymer residue
          > are easily filtered mechanically at the metropolitan wastewater facility.
          > Septic systems are a problem, but I've never heard of a city or town's
          > wastewater facility encountering problems.
          >
          > As far as the bath's upkeep, at Boxcar we keep our photopolymer brushes
          > covered with water at all times. We usually recommend this to our customers
          > with machines as well. In the event that the machine is idle for any period
          > of time, we recommend adding a 1/2 cup of bleach to the bath to
          > retard...evolution.
          >
          > Hope that helps!
          > Harold
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Michael Hurley <mephit@...> wrote:
          >
          > > **
          > >
          > >
          > > On Nov 27, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Scott Rubel wrote:
          > >
          > > > A hell of a lot less than the byproducts of acid etching. I may not know
          > > much, but I'm pretty sure about this. --Scott
          > >
          > > I believe Boxcar has the MSDSs on all the plate materials they sell on
          > > their website. As I recall, they're mildly toxic in large doses (like if
          > > you were producing plates full time for multiple customers), but in the
          > > amounts you'd be washing down the drain in a private shop they're
          > > functionally inert and safe.
          > > --
          > > Michael Hurley Titivilus Press
          > > 123 North Holmes St. titiviluspress@...
          > > Memphis, TN 38111 (901) 831-7640
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > Boxcar Press
          > 509 W. Fayette St. #135
          > Syracuse, NY 13204
          > www.boxcarpress.com
          >
        • Gerald Lange
          Joel I ll be up all night here on a project so no problem. I suspect the horsehair brushes do out last the synthetics (by a long shot from what I hear). Though
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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            Joel

            I'll be up all night here on a project so no problem. I suspect the horsehair brushes do out last the synthetics (by a long shot from what I hear). Though they are likely far more expensive. My original brush lasted 12 years before total collapse (sort of a one-horse shay type of incident). I replaced the second brush after four years, not because it needed it but I undertook a complete reconditioning of my platemaker this past winter over the holidays and thought a back up brush wouldn't be a bad idea. So I installed new brushes and boxed up the other, just in case. I love my "new machine." Right on the money, every day.

            Gerald

            >
            > I suspect the difference between manufacturers recommending either keeping the bath full of water with the brush submerged or draining the bath and letting the brush dry out actually depends upon the type of brush used in the machine(?) The US made A&V machines I've seen use horsehair brushes, not synthetic material. They have to dry out or the brushes are subject to rot or attack from fungi/mildew.
            >
            > Gerald
            >
            >
          • jonathanjeclipse
            That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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              That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated
              I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around with a couple of Flint Corp/BASF plates, and even just unwrapped we can smell their essence? in the air and after washing-must check out their data sheet to see if there are more volatile/hazardous? components in case we use them a lot more--I really like that Tyobo change colour according to what stage in the making they have reached, I don't think I am imagining that !-has anyone else experience of Flint plates, they certainly seem to swell up easily and quickly go to the base, cf with Miraclon which seems to be a more gradual process:this when we use the Miraclon d73s for polymer intaglio (as well as letterpress), so found that BASF could not hold the sensitive tones in the surface when making plates for intaglio, yes of course polymer plates are not really designed/ formulated for this but somehow it works, AKA "solar" platemaking(personally I feel that name is not appropiate, better to state the objective ie making a photopolymer intaglio plate)....
              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi guys,
              >
              >
              > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
              >
              > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
              >
              > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
              >
              > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
              >
              > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
              >
              > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
              >
              >
              > PC.
              >
            • Peter Bruce
              Gerald, Actually, you re right my mistake - it wasn t Miraclon but the Jet plates that are supposed to be okay in the UK for flushing into sewage. Regulations
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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                Gerald,

                Actually, you're right my mistake - it wasn't Miraclon but the Jet plates that are supposed to be okay in the UK for flushing into sewage. Regulations are very tight here, anything chemical is a no-no. Not impressed with them either though (no pun intended).

                The problem seems to be the aggregating nature of polymer, it will build to a blockage it seems - anyway we ain't taking the risk with these guys, we'll continue to bag it and bin it.

                I'll hang on to the vinegar tip.


                PC
              • Gerald Lange
                Jonathan There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. I think it is a great aid in processing as
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 28, 2012
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                  Jonathan

                  There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. I think it is a great aid in processing as it is more visually revealing of possible problems. It also aids in alignment on the base during the prepress stage. Plus, it just looks more sophisticated than that all bland yellow of the cheaper brands.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjeclipse" <jonathanjeclipse@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated
                  > I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around with a couple of Flint Corp/BASF plates, and even just unwrapped we can smell their essence? in the air and after washing-must check out their data sheet to see if there are more volatile/hazardous? components in case we use them a lot more--I really like that Tyobo change colour according to what stage in the making they have reached, I don't think I am imagining that !-has anyone else experience of Flint plates, they certainly seem to swell up easily and quickly go to the base, cf with Miraclon which seems to be a more gradual process:this when we use the Miraclon d73s for polymer intaglio (as well as letterpress), so found that BASF could not hold the sensitive tones in the surface when making plates for intaglio, yes of course polymer plates are not really designed/ formulated for this but somehow it works, AKA "solar" platemaking(personally I feel that name is not appropiate, better to state the objective ie making a photopolymer intaglio plate)....
                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi guys,
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
                  > >
                  > > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
                  > >
                  > > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
                  > >
                  > > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
                  > >
                  > > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
                  > >
                  > > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > PC.
                  > >
                  >
                • Eric
                  ... The all-yellow Miraclons are certainly a problem when you try to distinguish surface from body from base. That is one reason I ve liked the HX Rigilon,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 29, 2012
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                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jonathan
                    >
                    > There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. [...] it just looks more sophisticated than that all bland yellow of the cheaper brands.

                    The all-yellow Miraclons are certainly a problem when you try to distinguish surface from body from base. That is one reason I've liked the HX Rigilon, because of the distinct green-colored surface (which is also matte for better drawdown). However, I have been told it is unavailable since the tsunami.
                    At my old job they used MLD until Anderson-Vreeland switched it without explanation for Rigilon, which I much preferred, and now I hear they have been switched back to MLD. But MLD, at least back in the mid-90s, had a shorter shelflife, becoming brittle and fracturing while still in the light-safe box.
                    --Eric Holub, SF
                  • Jonathan Jarvis
                    Agreed-best wishes
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 2, 2012
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                      Agreed-best wishes


                      From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>;
                      To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>;
                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Cleaning the washout unit
                      Sent: Thu, Nov 29, 2012 6:10:59 AM

                       

                      Jonathan

                      There is a definite color shift between exposed and unexposed material for both the BASF and Toyobo plates. I think it is a great aid in processing as it is more visually revealing of possible problems. It also aids in alignment on the base during the prepress stage. Plus, it just looks more sophisticated than that all bland yellow of the cheaper brands.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "jonathanjeclipse" <jonathanjeclipse@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > That is actually interesting, thanks for information, much appreciated
                      > I use the Miraclon but also we have had a go at the Tyobo-recently been playing around with a couple of Flint Corp/BASF plates, and even just unwrapped we can smell their essence? in the air and after washing-must check out their data sheet to see if there are more volatile/hazardous? components in case we use them a lot more--I really like that Tyobo change colour according to what stage in the making they have reached, I don't think I am imagining that !-has anyone else experience of Flint plates, they certainly seem to swell up easily and quickly go to the base, cf with Miraclon which seems to be a more gradual process:this when we use the Miraclon d73s for polymer intaglio (as well as letterpress), so found that BASF could not hold the sensitive tones in the surface when making plates for intaglio, yes of course polymer plates are not really designed/ formulated for this but somehow it works, AKA "solar" platemaking(personally I feel that name is not appropiate, better to state the objective ie making a photopolymer intaglio plate)....
                      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Peter Bruce <pcpete100@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi guys,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > been following this thread with interest but not had time to reply. We've had a little experience with this in the UK which might be useful to somebody - regulations are tight here about waste and chemicals.
                      > >
                      > > Firstly, some plates we've found can have their effluence flushed into mains sewage in the UK, at least that's the claim. I believe the Miraclon plate is supposed to be one such. The Toyobo plates should not be discharged into main sewage (certainly not in the UK at least - not sure about you fella's over the pond), the issue is the build up of sediment which causes major problems with public sewage services. You can understand this, we all have problems with the stuff sticking to machines and digging out the acetone for a clean up...
                      > >
                      > > The solution we use is filtration and we've developed a simple homemade process that's cheap but extremely effective. Photopolymer is unstable outside of neutral PH values (4.5-7), whether 8 and above to alkaline or 3 and below to acidic. We empty the bath into a 30 litre tank then add a small amount of caustic solution (sodium hydroxide - available from the hardware store - dissolved into water, the maximum strength is 47% or it turns solid, 20% is used for oven cleaner solutions etc but 10% is fine and relatively safe, though wear gloves obviously) I'm afraid we just use the glug method adding the solution to the waste tank but around 200ml.
                      > >
                      > > We leave the waste overnight and the next morning all the 'mud' has aggregated to the bottom leaving a completely clear liquid above which we syphon to sewage. The overall PH at this point is probably around that of a household washing machine discharge. The mud we strain through a couple of layers of cotton then squeeze out and again the water is clear just leaving the mud in the cloth which empties easily into a refuse sack.
                      > >
                      > > For us here this complies with all regulations, the only time used is actually straining the mud which takes around five minutes and occasionally  making another can of caustic solution. I believe acid will work too, you could use something safe like citric or descaler but we've not tried this as the caustic route works fine.
                      > >
                      > > Sorry, bit of a yarn but somebody may find it useful - apologies to everybody else for a monotonous science lesson.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > PC.
                      > >
                      >

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