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Re: [PPLetterpress] vandercook

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  • Peter Fraterdeus
    Probably need to fashion some type of frisket/mask which will hold the stock in position above the form (type or plate) My Vandercook 219 has an arrangement of
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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      Probably need to fashion some type of frisket/mask which will hold the stock in position above the form (type or plate)

      My Vandercook 219 has an arrangement of this sort, which I've never used. It's the same in principle as that used on the iron hand-press, with the large frisket frame folding down over the form.

      Maybe some digging on Google will find diagrams.

      Good luck with that.

      The other consideration is that you may be able to get the heavy stock to run on the cylinder, sans packing, as long as it's wrapping around the cylinder with the grain of the paper parallel to the cylinder.

      If small pieces are too stiff to control, use larger press sheets, and print one end of the stock, then the other and trim afterwards.

      The longer sheet will be easier to manage.

      Not sure about the grippers on the SP15, but on my press there's an adjustment for the height.

      Just my two cents.

      Peter

      Peter Fraterdeus
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      On 28 Feb 2012, at 8:57 AM, griinga wrote:

      > I'm wondering if any printers out there have successfully used 230# paper on their Vandercook and how, seeing as you can't use the grippers and cylinder. I've been strictly a platen press printer and now need to get going on my Vandy 15.
      > Thanks for any input.
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • nohogallery@aol.com
      What do you really mean by 230# paper? How many grams/sq.meter? How big of a sheet? We have printed 20 x26 600grm lettra on our SP20 and SP25 with reduced
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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        What do you really mean by 230# paper?    How many grams/sq.meter?  How big of a sheet?  We have printed 20 x26 600grm lettra on our SP20 and SP25 with reduced packing.  A small sheet would be difficult.  Good luck.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: griinga <laurensted@...>
        To: PPLetterpress <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sat, Mar 3, 2012 1:27 am
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] vandercook

         
        I'm wondering if any printers out there have successfully used 230# paper on their Vandercook and how, seeing as you can't use the grippers and cylinder. I've been strictly a platen press printer and now need to get going on my Vandy 15.
        Thanks for any input.

      • victoria kniering
        Yes, use it all the time, rives bfk 230. I make books, I actually use it to print woodcuts, monotypes and letterpress. you can adjust the gripper height, and
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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          Yes, use it all the time, rives bfk 230.  I make books, I actually use it to print woodcuts, monotypes and letterpress. 
          you can adjust the gripper height,  and you can change the packing, or... you can use a few sheets of newsprint loose behind the paper as removable packing to get your paper to print.... or.... you can put a piece (or two or three) of sheet aluminum litho plate under a wood block that's not quite type high, if you don't want to mess with the packing...  do you know if your vandy is a galley press or not.  if so you need to have the bed at type high first and if the press doesn't have the steel plate that takes up the height of the galley you can order one... the vandy is a proof press, some of the book houses used to proof each galley of type before they put it all together i.e. the galley press bed height is set for the addition of type AND galley...so when printing type alone you need the steel plate to bring the whole pkg. to type high. na graphics sells the steel plate for that.  if you don't know if it's a galley press or not you can tell you from the serial number, at least n. a. graphics can look it up for you.
          what you don't want to do is add to much packing or plates to make it way to hard to roll the roller, if it feels like it's binding stop and remove packing don't jeopardize the settings ...it's not a platen press and PRESSURE is very very light.
          if you really want  something more the a "kiss" impression, use the platen press..
              
          victoria jutras kniering
          On Feb 28, 2012, at 9:57 AM, griinga wrote:

           

          I'm wondering if any printers out there have successfully used 230# paper on their Vandercook and how, seeing as you can't use the grippers and cylinder. I've been strictly a platen press printer and now need to get going on my Vandy 15.
          Thanks for any input.


        • fritzmiklaf@bezeqint.net
          I don t see why you can t print 230 gm paper on an SP-15. I have printed some pretty heavy stuff and my friend Ariel even more so. If the cylinder and grippers
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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            I don’t see why you can’t print 230 gm paper on an SP-15. I have printed some pretty heavy stuff and my friend Ariel even more so. If the cylinder and grippers can’t take it, you could always lay the paper down carefully and run the cylinder over it, kind of like an etching press.

             

            Yehuda Miklaf

            Jerusalem

            fritzmiklaf@...

            www.yehudamiklaf.com

             

          • Silber MaiKätzchen
            I think that he means heavy Bristol, it comes in 230 Lb. basis weight. The basis weight is a term used to describe the weight in pounds of 500 sheets of paper
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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              I think that he means heavy Bristol, it comes in 230
              Lb. basis weight.

              The basis weight is a term used to describe the weight
              in pounds of 500 sheets of paper (one ream) of a particular
              measured size of sheet. Since the sheet size varies
              from one type of stock to another, the basis weights
              are not always easily comparable.

              For example, an office supply store has 8.5 x 11 size
              cover stock (80 lb Printing Bristol) and 8.5 x 11 size
              card stock (90 lb Index) side by side on the shelf. Both
              papers are manufactured by the same company, and
              a basis weight comparison indicates the card stock
              (90 lb Index) is heavier than the cover stock(80 lb
              Printing Bristol). In this example, the cover stock (80
              lb Printing Bristol) is actually heavier than the card
              stock (90 lb Index).

              The reason the cover stock is heavier is because before
              the two types of paper were cut into 8.5 x 11 size pages,
              the card stock was a larger sheet size than the sheet size
              of the cover stock. When the papers were cut during the
              manufacturing process into 8.5 x 11 size pages, more reams
              (500 sheets) of paper were received from the card stock sheets
              than from the cover stock sheets. This makes the weight
              of the cover stock heavier than the weight of the card
              stock.

              It is easier to compare the cover stock metric weight
              (g/m2) against card stock metric weight (g/m2). If
              you look at the metric weights of the two stocks in
              the previous example, it is immediately evident
              that 80 lb Bristol cover stock (176 g/m2) isheavier
              than 90 lb Index card stock (163 g/m2).

              The sheet size used to determine the basis weight of
              Printing Bristol is 22.5x35" , and the sheet size for
              the basis weight of Index Bristol is 25.5x30.5". Interestingly
              enough both numbers result in the same number
              for a basis weight. The sheet size to determine the basis
              weight of Cover stock is 20x26".

              MaiKätzchen
               
              Dum loquimur, fugerit invida Aetas:
              Carpe diem!
              quam minimum credula postero!

              Horace
              Odes Book I



              From: "nohogallery@..." <nohogallery@...>
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, March 3, 2012 7:15:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] vandercook



              What do you really mean by 230# paper?    How many grams/sq.meter?  How big of a sheet?  We have printed 20 x26 600grm lettra on our SP20 and SP25 with reduced packing.  A small sheet would be difficult.  Good luck.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: griinga <laurensted@...>
              To: PPLetterpress <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, Mar 3, 2012 1:27 am
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] vandercook

               
              I'm wondering if any printers out there have successfully used 230# paper on their Vandercook and how, seeing as you can't use the grippers and cylinder. I've been strictly a platen press printer and now need to get going on my Vandy 15.
              Thanks for any input.



            • erik spiekermann
              us Europeans have it easy: gsm means grams per square meter. A0 is one square meter. divide that & you get A1, then A2, etc. A4 (210x297mm) is 1/16 of A0, thus
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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                us Europeans have it easy: gsm means grams per square meter. A0 is one square meter. divide that & you get A1, then A2, etc. A4 (210x297mm) is 1/16 of A0, thus one sheet A4 @ 160gsm would be 10grams. good for working out postage. 
                e

                Sent from the ePhone


                On Mar 3, 2012, at 10:20, Silber MaiKätzchen <maykitten1@...> wrote:

                 

                I think that he means heavy Bristol, it comes in 230
                Lb. basis weight.

                The basis weight is a term used to describe the weight
                in pounds of 500 sheets of paper (one ream) of a particular
                measured size of sheet. Since the sheet size varies
                from one type of stock to another, the basis weights
                are not always easily comparable.

                For example, an office supply store has 8.5 x 11 size
                cover stock (80 lb Printing Bristol) and 8.5 x 11 size
                card stock (90 lb Index) side by side on the shelf. Both
                papers are manufactured by the same company, and
                a basis weight comparison indicates the card stock
                (90 lb Index) is heavier than the cover stock(80 lb
                Printing Bristol). In this example, the cover stock (80
                lb Printing Bristol) is actually heavier than the card
                stock (90 lb Index).

                The reason the cover stock is heavier is because before
                the two types of paper were cut into 8.5 x 11 size pages,
                the card stock was a larger sheet size than the sheet size
                of the cover stock. When the papers were cut during the
                manufacturing process into 8.5 x 11 size pages, more reams
                (500 sheets) of paper were received from the card stock sheets
                than from the cover stock sheets. This makes the weight
                of the cover stock heavier than the weight of the card
                stock.

                It is easier to compare the cover stock metric weight
                (g/m2) against card stock metric weight (g/m2). If
                you look at the metric weights of the two stocks in
                the previous example, it is immediately evident
                that 80 lb Bristol cover stock (176 g/m2) isheavier
                than 90 lb Index card stock (163 g/m2).

                The sheet size used to determine the basis weight of
                Printing Bristol is 22.5x35" , and the sheet size for
                the basis weight of Index Bristol is 25.5x30.5". Interestingly
                enough both numbers result in the same number
                for a basis weight. The sheet size to determine the basis
                weight of Cover stock is 20x26".

                MaiKätzchen
                 
                Dum loquimur, fugerit invida Aetas:
                Carpe diem!
                quam minimum credula postero!

                Horace
                Odes Book I



                From: "nohogallery@..." <nohogallery@...>
                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, March 3, 2012 7:15:10 AM
                Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] vandercook



                What do you really mean by 230# paper?    How many grams/sq.meter?  How big of a sheet?  We have printed 20 x26 600grm lettra on our SP20 and SP25 with reduced packing.  A small sheet would be difficult.  Good luck.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: griinga <laurensted@...>
                To: PPLetterpress <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sat, Mar 3, 2012 1:27 am
                Subject: [PPLetterpress] vandercook

                 
                I'm wondering if any printers out there have successfully used 230# paper on their Vandercook and how, seeing as you can't use the grippers and cylinder. I've been strictly a platen press printer and now need to get going on my Vandy 15.
                Thanks for any input.



              • lauren Stedman
                Yehuda, Thank you for your reply. Enjoyed perusing your website. Beautiful baby. Exquisite books. Lauren Stedman ________________________________ From:
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 3, 2012
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                  Yehuda,
                  Thank you for your reply. Enjoyed perusing your website. Beautiful baby. Exquisite books.
                  Lauren Stedman


                  From: "fritzmiklaf@..." <fritzmiklaf@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 11:35 AM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: vandercook

                   
                  I don’t see why you can’t print 230 gm paper on an SP-15. I have printed some pretty heavy stuff and my friend Ariel even more so. If the cylinder and grippers can’t take it, you could always lay the paper down carefully and run the cylinder over it, kind of like an etching press.
                   
                  Yehuda Miklaf
                  Jerusalem
                   


                • Mike Dacey
                  Something that will come into play with thicker stocks is the size of your press, specifically the cylinder. Larger Vandercooks like the SP20, SP25, or 219
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 4, 2012
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                    Something that will come into play with thicker stocks is the size of your press, specifically the cylinder. Larger Vandercooks like the SP20, SP25, or 219 have larger cylinders than an SP15 or #4, which means the stock does not have to flex as much to wrap around the cylinder. 

                    I have printed coaster stock and 600gsm lettra on my SP20 without difficulty, taking the precautions suggested by others in this thread (grain parellel to the cylinder, larger sheets to avoid slap). If I recall, I printed the coaster stock with just the tympan topsheet and no additional packing.

                    Good luck!
                    -----

                    Mike Dacey

                    Repeat Press
                    Custom Letterpress Printing

                    9 Olive Square
                    Somerville, MA 02143
                    617.299.0918

                    www.repeatpress.com
                    www.facebook.com/repeatpress
                    @repeatpress




                    On Sat, Mar 3, 2012 at 1:54 PM, lauren Stedman <laurensted@...> wrote:
                     

                    Yehuda,
                    Thank you for your reply. Enjoyed perusing your website. Beautiful baby. Exquisite books.
                    Lauren Stedman


                    From: "fritzmiklaf@..." <fritzmiklaf@...>
                    To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 11:35 AM
                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: vandercook

                     
                    I don’t see why you can’t print 230 gm paper on an SP-15. I have printed some pretty heavy stuff and my friend Ariel even more so. If the cylinder and grippers can’t take it, you could always lay the paper down carefully and run the cylinder over it, kind of like an etching press.
                     
                    Yehuda Miklaf
                    Jerusalem
                     



                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    By the way, (sorry if it s already been addressed!) Rives BFK 230 is 230gsm, Grams/Sq Meter, not 230# LB. It s probably about 15 point caliper (.015 ) thick
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 5, 2012
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                      By the way, (sorry if it's already been addressed!) 

                      Rives BFK 230 is 230gsm,  Grams/Sq Meter, not 230# LB.
                      It's probably about 15 point caliper (.015") thick

                      Crane Lettra double-thick is 220# and 600gsm and 40 point caliper (thickness approx .040")

                      Reich Savoy double-thick is 236#, about 630gsm

                      Rising 2-ply museum board is .060" - 60 point.
                      That's as heavy as I can run on the Windmill ;-)
                      Don't recommend trying this on a cylinder press.

                      Cheers!

                      P

                      On 3 Mar 2012, at 9:36 AM, victoria kniering wrote:



                      Yes, use it all the time, rives bfk 230.  I make books, I actually use it to print woodcuts, monotypes and letterpress. 
                      you can adjust the gripper height,  and you can change the packing, or... you can use a few sheets of newsprint loose behind the paper as removable packing to get your paper to print.... or.... you can put a piece (or two or three) of sheet aluminum litho plate under a wood block that's not quite type high, if you don't want to mess with the packing...  do you know if your vandy is a galley press or not.  if so you need to have the bed at type high first and if the press doesn't have the steel plate that takes up the height of the galley you can order one... the vandy is a proof press, some of the book houses used to proof each galley of type before they put it all together i.e. the galley press bed height is set for the addition of type AND galley...so when printing type alone you need the steel plate to bring the whole pkg. to type high. na graphics sells the steel plate for that.  if you don't know if it's a galley press or not you can tell you from the serial number, at least n. a. graphics can look it up for you.
                      what you don't want to do is add to much packing or plates to make it way to hard to roll the roller, if it feels like it's binding stop and remove packing don't jeopardize the settings ...it's not a platen press and PRESSURE is very very light.
                      if you really want  something more the a "kiss" impression, use the platen press..
                          
                      victoria jutras kniering
                      On Feb 28, 2012, at 9:57 AM, griinga wrote:

                      I'm wondering if any printers out there have successfully used 230# paper on their Vandercook and how, seeing as you can't use the grippers and cylinder. I've been strictly a platen press printer and now need to get going on my Vandy 15.
                      Thanks for any input. 





                    • Kim Vanderheiden
                      Victoria, I feel like I would need to look at your setup to understand the trouble you ve been having. I thought maybe I d catch on from the posts, but I m
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 6, 2012
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                        Victoria,

                        I feel like I would need to look at your setup to understand the trouble you've been having. I thought maybe I'd catch on from the posts, but I'm still unsure why you have trouble feeding.

                        We've routinely used 300 lb Waterford, 250 lb Bockingford, and Lettra Duplex which is essentially 220#, all on the Vandercook. I don't know of anything special you would need to do to feed it, unless, as someone brought up, your paper is small and it tries to stick straight up. Even then, it should still work ok, except you'll need to trim of the end of the paper to clean up the bit of ink it picks up when the end of the paper slaps the plate as it rolls past due to its stiffness.

                        One thing I can offer based on my experience with my own press is that there was a time when I was dealing with a bearing that was worn down on the opposite side from the press operator. Because of this, the grippers were not rising to their full height. I had to build up the track a little - maybe it was with some thin steel rule left over from plate material? Something. I rigged it. Also, there was a spring behind the ramp that had broken. I tucked a piece of furniture behind the ramp (it seemed just the right size) to offer better resistance. Then the grippers worked fine. My sense was that they were designed to rise higher in the first place, but due to wear, and the spring breaking, were not rising very much anymore at all. Mine is a very early model 4 - about 75 years old now I believe.

                        I don't know if that helps. If you think that may be your problem, here's what I would suggest based on our press's layout: Have someone slowly wheel the carriage out and back for you as you carefully watch how the mechanics work on the opposite side. Carefully manipulate the parts and movements as needed to understand their functions. When you understand the mechanics of the gripper system (it's a lever with a bearing on the bottom that travels up an inclined plane) you may be able to see what the problem is and why the grippers aren't raising sufficiently. On mine, I'm able to manipulate the lever with my hands and raise the grippers manually which is how I figured out how to get around the problem.

                        (It would sure be nice to restore it some time so that the bearings, ramp and spring are the correct specifications again! I hope I didn't just make everyone groan in frustration at the knowledge of my little rigging effort. )

                        Good luck!
                        Kim Vanderheiden
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