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Re: COMMENTS ON LEAD OXIDE…..AND OTHER PRINT SHOP TOXINS

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  • okintertype
    Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957).
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 9 10:00 AM
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      Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
      Stan


      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Steve
      >
      > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
      >
      > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
      >
      > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
      >
      > Gerald
      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
      >
    • Gerald Lange
      Stan Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint Gerald http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 10 8:54 PM
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        Stan

        Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
        > Stan
        >
        >
        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Steve
        > >
        > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
        > >
        > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
        > >
        > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
        > >
        > > Gerald
        > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
        > >
        >
      • Gerald Lange
        Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing How self serving is this? If you
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 10 11:03 PM
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          Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing

          How self serving is this? If you have been round and about you can even identify the me me culprits.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
          >
          > Stan
          >
          > Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
          >
          > Gerald
          > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
          > > Stan
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hi Steve
          > > >
          > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
          > > >
          > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
          > > >
          > > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
          > > >
          > > > Gerald
          > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Erik Desmyter
          Hi Gerald, do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info? Best
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 11 12:32 AM
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            Hi Gerald,

            do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?

            Best regards,
            Erik


            Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
            ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.

          • Nick Smith
            And what were the metal workers doing with ink? Nick ... -- Nicholas Smith Rare Books Dept - University Library West Rd, Cambridge CB3 9DR UK (0)1223 333123
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 11 1:27 AM
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              And what were the metal workers doing with ink?

              Nick

              On 11/07/2011 08:32, Erik Desmyter wrote:  

              Hi Gerald,


              do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?

              Best regards,
              Erik


              Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
              ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.



              -- 
              Nicholas Smith
              Rare Books Dept - University Library
              West Rd, Cambridge CB3 9DR UK
              (0)1223 333123
            • okintertype
              My comments were specifically about white lead. We also used what was called a red lead primer. It was an excellent material and gave us 20-30 year s
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 11 9:31 AM
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                My comments were specifically about white lead. We also used what was called a "red lead primer." It was an excellent material and gave us 20-30 year's performance in many cases. I specified it as long as I was on the job (til 1986). Our painters who applied this primer in all cases tested out no higher than the general population. It has been claimed that in order for red lead to be a good exterior primer it has to be mostly insoluble. Thus is not absorbed by the body as much as some other lead compounds.

                Don't ask me any more chemistry questions. I've been retired 18 years. :}
                Stan


                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Stan
                >
                > Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                >
                > Gerald
                > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                > > Stan
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Steve
                > > >
                > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                > > >
                > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                > > >
                > > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                > > >
                > > > Gerald
                > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Gerald Lange
                Erik I ve seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg s
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 11 11:06 AM
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                  Erik

                  I've seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg's ink by Schwab in the 1980s. There are similarities in the compound to the "paint" (oil-based) used in the Flanders region to render colored religious images on medallions during the time period. And not found elsewhere. Interestingly, Coster's territory. The developments at Avignon (as reported by Ruppel) could also be examined in regard to precursors to the "invention." The "ink" that had been used for block printing for some very long time before Gutenberg, was not resistant to water. There is some discussion by DeVinne of the inking problems of the Mainz Psalter that could be seen, in retrospect, as loss of the formula. A reference to the possible origin of the ink appears in Ing and I believe Kapr as well. (?)

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Gerald,
                  >
                  > do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  > Erik
                  >
                  >
                  > Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                  > >>
                  > >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                  > >>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                  >
                • Fritz Klinke
                  While Gerald’s contributions to the Wikipedia listing on letterpress can be readily detected as far as his interests and knowledge lie, some of the other
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 11 12:21 PM
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                    While Gerald’s contributions to the Wikipedia listing on letterpress can be readily detected as far as his interests and knowledge lie, some of the other stuff is of dubious value. As an example, the text under Industrial-scale use in the 20th Century uses the term oscillating for what I assume was a flat bed cylinder press and then attempts to describe a stereotype plate used on rotary newspaper presses and completely ignores any other rotary press used in both sheet fed and web fed letterpress presses that dominated 60 or more years of letterpress work that used plates other than stereotypes, mainly electrotypes, and also included photopolymer. A sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.
                     
                    Fritz
                     
                    Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:03 AM
                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: COMMENTS ON LEAD OXIDE…..AND OTHER PRINT SHOP TOXINS
                     
                     

                    Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing

                    How self serving is this? If you have been round and about you can even identify the me me culprits.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                    --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Stan
                    >
                    >
                    Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                    >
                    >
                    href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                    >
                    > Gerald
                    >
                    href="http://BielerPress.blogspot.com">http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In
                    href="mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Well,
                    technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                    > >
                    Stan
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In
                    href="mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi
                    Steve
                    > > >
                    > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was
                    once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                    > > >
                    > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to
                    use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                    > > >
                    > > > By the way,
                    there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    Gerald
                    > > >
                    href="http://BielerPress.blogspot.com">http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >

                  • Gerald Lange
                    Hi Fritz Actually the only thing I added to the listing was the reference to my book, and even that took way too much effort. The problem with the Wikipedia is
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 11 12:44 PM
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                      Hi Fritz

                      Actually the only thing I added to the listing was the reference to my book, and even that took way too much effort. The problem with the Wikipedia is that if one knows something at all about a subject, it's quite bad, but if one doesn't know much about a subject, it seems as if it is useful. Yes, next to last choice.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                      On 7/11/11 12:21 PM, Fritz Klinke wrote:
                      While Gerald’s contributions to the Wikipedia listing on letterpress can be readily detected as far as his interests and knowledge lie, some of the other stuff is of dubious value. As an example, the text under Industrial-scale use in the 20th Century uses the term oscillating for what I assume was a flat bed cylinder press and then attempts to describe a stereotype plate used on rotary newspaper presses and completely ignores any other rotary press used in both sheet fed and web fed letterpress presses that dominated 60 or more years of letterpress work that used plates other than stereotypes, mainly electrotypes, and also included photopolymer. A sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.
                       
                      Fritz
                       
                      Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:03 AM
                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: COMMENTS ON LEAD OXIDE…..AND OTHER PRINT SHOP TOXINS
                       
                       

                      Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing

                      How self serving is this? If you have been round and about you can even identify the me me culprits.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                      --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Stan
                      >
                      > Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                      > > Stan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Steve
                      > > >
                      > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                      > > >
                      > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                      > > >
                      > > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                      > > >
                      > > > Gerald
                      > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • Ithaca Typothetae
                      ... Too bad a PIA Composition Manual-like committee couldn t outline the basics for a PIA Composition Manual-like video series. I know someone interested in
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 11 2:29 PM
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                        sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choicehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—

                        Too bad a PIA Composition Manual-like committee couldn't outline the basics for a PIA Composition Manual-like video series. I know someone interested in pursuing this sort of thing. Granted his interest & experience are genuine(he's worked over 50 years in letterpress & offset shops in various positions), he's a great teacher, but again, it'll be from one man's perspective. I wonder if such an endeavor wouldn't benefit from the hive mind. 

                        I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.

                        And finally, just me personally curious here, but I'd like to know what Fritz's last choice would be.

                      • Fritz Klinke
                        Probably my office staff. That’s why I show up for work everyday just to answer questions. I don’t do any productive work anymore it seems. fritz From:
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 11 3:20 PM
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                          Probably my office staff. That’s why I show up for work everyday just to answer questions. I don’t do any productive work anymore it seems.
                           
                          fritz
                           
                          Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 3:29 PM
                          Subject: [PPLetterpress] was COMMENTS ON LEAD . . .
                           
                           

                          sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choicehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—
                           
                          Too bad a PIA Composition Manual-like committee couldn't outline the basics for a PIA Composition Manual-like video series. I know someone interested in pursuing this sort of thing. Granted his interest & experience are genuine(he's worked over 50 years in letterpress & offset shops in various positions), he's a great teacher, but again, it'll be from one man's perspective. I wonder if such an endeavor wouldn't benefit from the hive mind.

                          I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.

                          And finally, just me personally curious here, but I'd like to know what Fritz's last choice would be.

                        • Erik Desmyter
                          Gerald, interesting stuff. Around 1430-1440 new advanced oil painting techniques were introduced by Flemish painters like Jan van Eyck who didn t invent oil
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 11 3:37 PM
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                            Gerald,

                            interesting stuff. Around 1430-1440 new advanced oil painting techniques were introduced by Flemish painters like Jan van Eyck who didn't invent oil painting but he was traditionally known as the "father of oil painting" because of his improvements like adding oil, lead, etc... to paint. Timing seems to match with Gutenberg's ink a few years later

                            Best regards,
                            Erik


                            > Erik
                            >
                            > I've seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg's ink by Schwab in the 1980s. There are similarities in the compound to the "paint" (oil-based) used in the Flanders region to render colored religious images on medallions during the time period. And not found elsewhere. Interestingly, Coster's territory. The developments at Avignon (as reported by Ruppel) could also be examined in regard to precursors to the "invention." The "ink" that had been used for block printing for some very long time before Gutenberg, was not resistant to water. There is some discussion by DeVinne of the inking problems of the Mainz Psalter that could be seen, in retrospect, as loss of the formula. A reference to the possible origin of the ink appears in Ing and I believe Kapr as well. (?)
                            >
                            > Gerald
                            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            >
                            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Hi Gerald,
                            >>
                            >> do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?
                            >>
                            >> Best regards,
                            >> Erik
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                            >>>>
                            >>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                            >>>>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Gerald Lange
                            Erik Thanks for the info. That tidbit is very useful. Gerald http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 11 7:24 PM
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                              Erik

                              Thanks for the info. That tidbit is very useful.

                              Gerald
                              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Gerald,
                              >
                              > interesting stuff. Around 1430-1440 new advanced oil painting techniques were introduced by Flemish painters like Jan van Eyck who didn't invent oil painting but he was traditionally known as the "father of oil painting" because of his improvements like adding oil, lead, etc... to paint. Timing seems to match with Gutenberg's ink a few years later
                              >
                              > Best regards,
                              > Erik
                              >
                              >
                              > > Erik
                              > >
                              > > I've seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg's ink by Schwab in the 1980s. There are similarities in the compound to the "paint" (oil-based) used in the Flanders region to render colored religious images on medallions during the time period. And not found elsewhere. Interestingly, Coster's territory. The developments at Avignon (as reported by Ruppel) could also be examined in regard to precursors to the "invention." The "ink" that had been used for block printing for some very long time before Gutenberg, was not resistant to water. There is some discussion by DeVinne of the inking problems of the Mainz Psalter that could be seen, in retrospect, as loss of the formula. A reference to the possible origin of the ink appears in Ing and I believe Kapr as well. (?)
                              > >
                              > > Gerald
                              > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                              > >
                              > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@> wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >> Hi Gerald,
                              > >>
                              > >> do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?
                              > >>
                              > >> Best regards,
                              > >> Erik
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                              > >>>>
                              > >>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                              > >>>>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                              > >>
                            • Chad Pastotnik
                              Very useful tidbit of info for me as well. I started out (and still do) intaglio printing - engraving and mezzotint on copper and always make my own ink for
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 12 1:38 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Very useful tidbit of info for me as well. I started out (and still do) intaglio printing - engraving and mezzotint on copper and always make my own ink for editions. I've made ink for letterpress also but a very fine grain pigment must be used or expect to spend a lot of time mulling the ink. Letting it age for a week to months in advance is of great benefit also as it allows the linseed to fully saturate the pigments.

                                Best way to get good earthtones, better than any PMS selection or similar offering from ink suppliers, just use the natural raw pigment like the days of old. I am also fond of Graphic Chemical's intaglio ink formulas and have modified them to work with letterpress as well in the past.

                                Chad
                                ___________________________
                                Chad Pastotnik
                                Deep Wood Press 231.587.0506
                                http://www.deepwoodpress.com

                                On Jul 12, 2011, at 12:13 AM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                                > Nick
                                >
                                > Just interested in the origins of printing and typography. Helps me understand the basics. How about you?
                                >
                                > Gerald
                                >
                                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Nick Smith <nas1000@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >> And what were the metal workers doing with ink?
                                >>
                                >> Nick
                                >>
                                >> On 11/07/2011 08:32, Erik Desmyter wrote:
                                >>>
                                >>> Hi Gerald,
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> do you have any historical references to your below quote linking
                                >>> Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this
                                >>> info?
                                >>>
                                >>> Best regards,
                                >>> Erik
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                >>>>> <mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                                >>>>>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen
                                >>>>>> (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He,
                                >>>>>> of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it
                                >>>>>> for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius
                                >>>>>> at appropriating.
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> --
                                >> Nicholas Smith
                                >> Rare Books Dept - University Library
                                >> West Rd, Cambridge CB3 9DR UK
                                >> (0)1223 333123
                                >>
                                >
                                >
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