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COMMENTS ON LEAD OXIDE…..AND OTHER PRINT SH OP TOXINS

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  • Steve Robison
    I ve been following the thread on solvent use, and allergies...and embedded in a recent post was Kim Vanderheiden s recent comments about the toxicity of lead
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 8, 2011
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      I've been following the thread on solvent use, and allergies...and embedded in a recent post was Kim Vanderheiden's recent comments about the toxicity of lead corrosion...which about lead corrosion. I thought I'd expand on here for the benefit of those who don't know enough about it...


      I agree with most everything that's been said about being careful and responsible about solvents, lead and all of this stuff...and here's my 2 cents worth to add to the pool of knowledge...(that's two copper cents, not two lead cents :-) ...  

      There are precautions to take when working around lead. If headed, it can be quite safe to work with...if not, it can be quite dangerous, especially to the development of the brain and nervous system...especially in young children. 

      Solid shiny lead is not the main culprit of toxicity that it's been made out to be. As long as you don't eat your clean shiny type and you wash your hands before eating, you should be fine.

      However, if you have a lot of old corroded type you have a bigger problem. The white lead carbonate that forms on old type can easily build up as "type dust" in the cases and be inhaled while dusting, and gets on your hands and ...well, it's not good if it somehow finds its way into your system.. Lead carbonate is the powdery white stuff that forms on the surface of lead when it's exposed to the salts and acids in the air. It's this white powdery stuff that's the stuff to watch out for in the print shop, not the solid shiny lead. Lead carbonate (or White Lead as it was called) is the chemical compound (PbCO3)2·Pb(OH)2. It was formerly used as an ingredient for lead paint, a cosmetic called Venetian Ceruse, and because of its opaque quality it made it a good pigment for paints and yes,printers ink. However, it also tended to cause lead poisoning too, and its use has been banned in most countries. It is a basic carbonate of lead and usually contains about
      70% of lead carbonate and 30% of lead hydroxide. This grade of white lead was composed of the actual flakes that fell off corroded lead sheets and the white lead was then mechanically removed from the lead, washed and then ground into a powder ready for use by the artist or paint maker or ink manufacturer. 

      Although I'll have to scare up the sources, I recall that the printing industry has had very stable mortality rates as a whole during it's long history --similar to those of other industrial activities. Hey,even Ben Franklin, one of the most famous printers of our early colonial era, lived well into his 80's --well past the life expectancy of his peers -- and probably helped to improve those early industry statistics immensely?! :-) 

      After the era of the hand press, and the slower early presses, the industry began to change.The introduction of high speed presses provided another industry hazard besides lead oxide. The introduction of high speed presses brought about a new health problem that went undetected for years. The presses at high speed began to spin off microscopic particles of ink into the air during long press runs.The particles could not be seen with the naked eye, so went undetected. Those microscopic particles  were then inhaled all day by press operators. Think of standing next to web fed newspaper, magazine and book presses spinning all day at high speed. It was the inhalation of these microscopic ink particles that gave press operators a much higher mortality rate than normal due to severe lung exposure from the chemicals in the ink. Like the black lung disease of coalminers, this ink was inhaled and affixed itself inside the lung cavity to do irreparable damage. So
      in those years, it was not the exposure to lead oxide that was the villain, it was the exposure from the chemicals in the ink particles that reduced life expectancy! 

      As a side note, the widespread practice of industry printers (and other laboring industrial workers as well) was  tobacco smoking, which probably accounted for more toxic damage to printers than handling lead type ever did. It was quite common to have type compositors and press operators inhaling from a cigarette all day long while they set type and turned the presses. In fact much of the debris in the California cases from old letterpress shops was as much cigarette ash as it was from lead oxide or rodent droppings. (I'll save the toxicity of rodent droppings for another time :-) 

       So now back to lead toxicity. I've had conversations with Lewis Mitchell who has been casting type at M&H Type Foundry in San Francisco continuously for over 50 years. He is regularly tested for lead levels, just as a precaution, given that he works with lead alloy casters all day, every day for 5 days a week. His blood lead levels have been at or below the average for the rest of the population, and that's with over50 years of intensive work with lead alloy only (he's never been a high speed press operator inhaling ink).  Now one might say that he works with new shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky lead carbonate stuff, and that certainly might be a factor of his good fortune. But remember too that he is also working with lead alloy in all its forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving pigs of lead alloy to the melting pots, he's standing over it's molten form and breathing its fumes. He's also surrounded by residual stray spurts  of it
      on the floor and equipment from the casters, and other stray particles. That lead alloy will eventually form lead carbonate unnoticed. And yet while living surrounded with lead for his entire working life, he has apparently gone without any adverse affects to him.  

      So I deduce from his experience that Lewis is just smart and careful and prudent about working with the stuff, and knows not to EAT it for lunch-- and that's what it takes to be safe around it! 

      In contrast there is an 18th and 19th century typesetter practice that I've heard about that might have narrowed the gene pool a bit for some, and perhaps shortened the life of a few printers by a year or two. The practice was that of licking some of the small end pieces of type that would keep falling over at the ends of some lines during hand setting, making it difficult to wrap a form with string. The bit of saliva helped the end type pieces stick together briefly to a piece of type next to it so that it wouldn't fall over, and thus allowed the type setter to tie up the block of type without further trouble. 

      This practice closely parallels the ingestion of small amounts mercury by early hat makers. They used to lick the needles that passed through the mercury soaked hats in the process of making them... leading to mercury poisoning and the insanity of hat makers and the term "Mad Hatters." 

      This practice also parallels the practices of the early fine classic painters who used pure "white lead"(lead carbonate) mixed into their oil paints and licked their brushes as they painted to get them to straighten out between brush strokes, or to achieve certain effects. It's said that Gutenberg may have modeled some of his early inks on the pigmented oil paints and etching inks used in his day. They all probably contained some amount of lead. 

      But my guess is that this occasional practice of type licking might not have been as dangerous as actually licking moist liquid paint or mercury, or so widespread a practice as to lower industry averages anymore than they were already.

      Remember that most industrial workers, including printers, were already using what we now know to be really dangerous carcinogenic chemicals like Benzene to clean things. That was standard practice in a lot of industrial industries, and that probably lowered life expectancies a lot more that the careful handling of lead alloy type.

      I also suspect that the tin involved in the Lead/Antimony/Tin alloy of type metal helps seal the lead somewhat and slows the corrosion process, so that only very old type, or type exposed to salt air or other chemicals is really corroded enough to pose a substantial risk.

      It may be that if you lick brand new shiny foundry type that absolutely nothing bad will happen to you at all...but I'm certainly not advocating the practice. Just to be completely safe, I'm going to keep my tongue where it belongs -- in my mouth! The occasional pesky piece of type that occasionally falls at the end of a line during set up is not enough of an incentive for me to risk ingestion of lead oxide! 

      Remember too that up until fairly recently, lead was used in almost all gasoline fuels. The gazillion pounds of lead distributed on our city streets and in the air every day through auto exhaust for the past 100 years has probably been a far greater risk exposure of lead to the general population than the amount of lead encountered by carefully handling clean solid type and then washing one's hands. Gasoline residues from the internal combustion engine have also spewed a lot of other dangerous chemicals into our environment as well. I've often thought that this has been a contributor, if not the major contributor, to the rapid rise of cancers and other diseases,including mental illnesses, in the world population today. 

      I also wanted to comment on the care and feeding of type and what to do to keep lead carbonate from forming in the first place -- so that no one will have to deal with it later. Think of lead carbonate as something like "type rust". Rust is, of course, the oxidation of iron, a completely different process. But if you were going to prevent iron or steel from rusting (oxidizing) you would coat it in something oily that would stick to it and protect it and keep the oxygen from getting to it. You might use something like oil or or paint to keep the moisture and oxygen out.

      Well, type metal can be protected in a similar way to keep the acids and salts away. But you just can't put paint on it because the face of the type has to be clean to use when you print, and the sides of the type can't be "built up" with coats of paint or the type won't fit together with precision.  

      So here's what you do. After each use, leave a mild thin oily substance on the type. Kerosene was and still is used in many print shops as a low VOC petroleum product for general type cleaning purposes in the print shop. But if you have a "green" shop and use vegetable based oils or solvents, they will also serve the purpose too. Any of these light oily products when used carefully and properly, will leave a light oil residue on the type after each "cleaning" and will keep the type from corroding.  

      New type often has a residue of oil left on it from the casting process, but it's not always evenly distributed. So a good practice from the start is to proof a new set of foundry type as soon as you get it, and then clean off the ink from the type with a soft rag soaked with a bit of an oily solvent. This leaves a thin film of an oily coating along with a tiny bit of diluted ink residue on the type face, and this coating protects it from further corrosion.  

      I go one step further in processing new foundry type. I immerse the whole font in a tray of mild oily solvent and let it soak for awhile until all the sides and bottom of the type are also fully coated as well. Then I take the font out of this oily bath and let it drain and dry for a day or two before distributing.

      This process will help protect all sides of the entire set of new type right from the start.  Of course, when I go to set the type at a later date, I don't want any residual oil on the face of the type when I use it. Otherwise it will mix with the ink in weird ways, or the ink won't adhere properly to the type. So after setting the block of type, when it's all locked up and in the chase and just before I print with it, I do one last step. I take a clean soft lint-free rag with some mild solvent on it and I wipe the top of the type lightly with a soft dry lint-free rag. This cleans the oily material off the face of the type just before I lock the type form in the press. 

      After printing, I take the chase out and clean the ink off the top with an old soft toothbrush soaked in mild solvent followed with a rag. At this point, I don't wipe the remaining solvent off with a dry rag...I leave it wet and let it dry on its own to leave a thin film of oily residue to protect the face of the type. This has kept my type in excellent condition over the years.

      Oh, one last thing. The lead in old paints can be toxic too. This is the most common cause of lead poisoning in the general population...especially in children. That usually happens with old peeling paint. Lead carbonate, I'm told (having never ingested it myself!) is sweet to the taste. That's why it's a danger to young children who are putting everything and anything in their mouths. If they find peeling lead paint chips on the ground that have fallen off a house (usually found on the outside of a house more than the inside, but of course it can be found in both places) then the children eat it--and because it's sweet, they eat more of it. By the way, that's why rats and mice will actually eat oxidized lead type...it's tasty. And some of us, who have gone into some pretty strange places in search of old rare type have come upon this phenomenon more than once! And those old molasses and glycerin rollers were tasty treats for them as well, but that's
      another story altogether! 

      OK. I'd better stop now and see what lead induced weirdness I've stirred up for the rest of the list! 

      Best wishes, 

      --Steve 

      Steve Robison
      The Robison Press
      Belmont, CA (just south of San Francisco)    
      robisonsteve@...

       

       
    • okintertype
      A long article which I mostly agree with. One point though is the idea of inhaling fumes from standing over a pot of molten typemetal. We have researched the
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 8, 2011
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        A long article which I mostly agree with. One point though is the idea of inhaling fumes from standing over a pot of molten typemetal. We have researched the vapor pressure of typemetal at the usual temperatures, and it is insignificant. Therefore no fumes are present to be inhaled.
        Stan

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Steve Robison <robisonsteve@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've been following the thread on solvent use, and allergies...and embedded in a recent post was Kim Vanderheiden's recent comments about the toxicity of lead corrosion...which about lead corrosion. I thought I'd expand on here for the benefit of those who don't know enough about it...
        >
        >
        > I agree with most everything that's been said about being careful and responsible about solvents, lead and all of this stuff...and here's my 2 cents worth to add to the pool of knowledge...(that's two copper cents, not two lead cents :-) ...  
        >
        > There are precautions to take when working around lead. If headed, it can be quite safe to work with...if not, it can be quite dangerous, especially to the development of the brain and nervous system...especially in young children. 
        >
        > Solid shiny lead is not the main culprit of toxicity that it's been made out to be. As long as you don't eat your clean shiny type and you wash your hands before eating, you should be fine.
        >
        > However, if you have a lot of old corroded type you have a bigger problem. The white lead carbonate that forms on old type can easily build up as "type dust" in the cases and be inhaled while dusting, and gets on your hands and ...well, it's not good if it somehow finds its way into your system.. Lead carbonate is the powdery white stuff that forms on the surface of lead when it's exposed to the salts and acids in the air. It's this white powdery stuff that's the stuff to watch out for in the print shop, not the solid shiny lead. Lead carbonate (or White Lead as it was called) is the chemical compound (PbCO3)2·Pb(OH)2. It was formerly used as an ingredient for lead paint, a cosmetic called Venetian Ceruse, and because of its opaque quality it made it a good pigment for paints and yes,printers ink. However, it also tended to cause lead poisoning too, and its use has been banned in most countries. It is a basic carbonate of lead and usually contains about
        > 70% of lead carbonate and 30% of lead hydroxide. This grade of white lead was composed of the actual flakes that fell off corroded lead sheets and the white lead was then mechanically removed from the lead, washed and then ground into a powder ready for use by the artist or paint maker or ink manufacturer. 
        >
        > Although I'll have to scare up the sources, I recall that the printing industry has had very stable mortality rates as a whole during it's long history --similar to those of other industrial activities. Hey,even Ben Franklin, one of the most famous printers of our early colonial era, lived well into his 80's --well past the life expectancy of his peers -- and probably helped to improve those early industry statistics immensely?! :-) 
        >
        > After the era of the hand press, and the slower early presses, the industry began to change.The introduction of high speed presses provided another industry hazard besides lead oxide. The introduction of high speed presses brought about a new health problem that went undetected for years. The presses at high speed began to spin off microscopic particles of ink into the air during long press runs.The particles could not be seen with the naked eye, so went undetected. Those microscopic particles  were then inhaled all day by press operators. Think of standing next to web fed newspaper, magazine and book presses spinning all day at high speed. It was the inhalation of these microscopic ink particles that gave press operators a much higher mortality rate than normal due to severe lung exposure from the chemicals in the ink. Like the black lung disease of coalminers, this ink was inhaled and affixed itself inside the lung cavity to do irreparable damage. So
        > in those years, it was not the exposure to lead oxide that was the villain, it was the exposure from the chemicals in the ink particles that reduced life expectancy! 
        >
        > As a side note, the widespread practice of industry printers (and other laboring industrial workers as well) was  tobacco smoking, which probably accounted for more toxic damage to printers than handling lead type ever did. It was quite common to have type compositors and press operators inhaling from a cigarette all day long while they set type and turned the presses. In fact much of the debris in the California cases from old letterpress shops was as much cigarette ash as it was from lead oxide or rodent droppings. (I'll save the toxicity of rodent droppings for another time :-) 
        >
        >  So now back to lead toxicity. I've had conversations with Lewis Mitchell who has been casting type at M&H Type Foundry in San Francisco continuously for over 50 years. He is regularly tested for lead levels, just as a precaution, given that he works with lead alloy casters all day, every day for 5 days a week. His blood lead levels have been at or below the average for the rest of the population, and that's with over50 years of intensive work with lead alloy only (he's never been a high speed press operator inhaling ink).  Now one might say that he works with new shiny molten type metal, and not the pesky lead carbonate stuff, and that certainly might be a factor of his good fortune. But remember too that he is also working with lead alloy in all its forms - solid to molten to gaseous. He's moving pigs of lead alloy to the melting pots, he's standing over it's molten form and breathing its fumes. He's also surrounded by residual stray spurts  of it
        > on the floor and equipment from the casters, and other stray particles. That lead alloy will eventually form lead carbonate unnoticed. And yet while living surrounded with lead for his entire working life, he has apparently gone without any adverse affects to him.  
        >
        > So I deduce from his experience that Lewis is just smart and careful and prudent about working with the stuff, and knows not to EAT it for lunch-- and that's what it takes to be safe around it! 
        >
        > In contrast there is an 18th and 19th century typesetter practice that I've heard about that might have narrowed the gene pool a bit for some, and perhaps shortened the life of a few printers by a year or two. The practice was that of licking some of the small end pieces of type that would keep falling over at the ends of some lines during hand setting, making it difficult to wrap a form with string. The bit of saliva helped the end type pieces stick together briefly to a piece of type next to it so that it wouldn't fall over, and thus allowed the type setter to tie up the block of type without further trouble. 
        >
        > This practice closely parallels the ingestion of small amounts mercury by early hat makers. They used to lick the needles that passed through the mercury soaked hats in the process of making them... leading to mercury poisoning and the insanity of hat makers and the term "Mad Hatters." 
        >
        > This practice also parallels the practices of the early fine classic painters who used pure "white lead"(lead carbonate) mixed into their oil paints and licked their brushes as they painted to get them to straighten out between brush strokes, or to achieve certain effects. It's said that Gutenberg may have modeled some of his early inks on the pigmented oil paints and etching inks used in his day. They all probably contained some amount of lead. 
        >
        > But my guess is that this occasional practice of type licking might not have been as dangerous as actually licking moist liquid paint or mercury, or so widespread a practice as to lower industry averages anymore than they were already.
        >
        > Remember that most industrial workers, including printers, were already using what we now know to be really dangerous carcinogenic chemicals like Benzene to clean things. That was standard practice in a lot of industrial industries, and that probably lowered life expectancies a lot more that the careful handling of lead alloy type.
        >
        > I also suspect that the tin involved in the Lead/Antimony/Tin alloy of type metal helps seal the lead somewhat and slows the corrosion process, so that only very old type, or type exposed to salt air or other chemicals is really corroded enough to pose a substantial risk.
        >
        > It may be that if you lick brand new shiny foundry type that absolutely nothing bad will happen to you at all...but I'm certainly not advocating the practice. Just to be completely safe, I'm going to keep my tongue where it belongs -- in my mouth! The occasional pesky piece of type that occasionally falls at the end of a line during set up is not enough of an incentive for me to risk ingestion of lead oxide! 
        >
        > Remember too that up until fairly recently, lead was used in almost all gasoline fuels. The gazillion pounds of lead distributed on our city streets and in the air every day through auto exhaust for the past 100 years has probably been a far greater risk exposure of lead to the general population than the amount of lead encountered by carefully handling clean solid type and then washing one's hands. Gasoline residues from the internal combustion engine have also spewed a lot of other dangerous chemicals into our environment as well. I've often thought that this has been a contributor, if not the major contributor, to the rapid rise of cancers and other diseases,including mental illnesses, in the world population today. 
        >
        > I also wanted to comment on the care and feeding of type and what to do to keep lead carbonate from forming in the first place -- so that no one will have to deal with it later. Think of lead carbonate as something like "type rust". Rust is, of course, the oxidation of iron, a completely different process. But if you were going to prevent iron or steel from rusting (oxidizing) you would coat it in something oily that would stick to it and protect it and keep the oxygen from getting to it. You might use something like oil or or paint to keep the moisture and oxygen out.
        >
        > Well, type metal can be protected in a similar way to keep the acids and salts away. But you just can't put paint on it because the face of the type has to be clean to use when you print, and the sides of the type can't be "built up" with coats of paint or the type won't fit together with precision.  
        >
        > So here's what you do. After each use, leave a mild thin oily substance on the type. Kerosene was and still is used in many print shops as a low VOC petroleum product for general type cleaning purposes in the print shop. But if you have a "green" shop and use vegetable based oils or solvents, they will also serve the purpose too. Any of these light oily products when used carefully and properly, will leave a light oil residue on the type after each "cleaning" and will keep the type from corroding.  
        >
        > New type often has a residue of oil left on it from the casting process, but it's not always evenly distributed. So a good practice from the start is to proof a new set of foundry type as soon as you get it, and then clean off the ink from the type with a soft rag soaked with a bit of an oily solvent. This leaves a thin film of an oily coating along with a tiny bit of diluted ink residue on the type face, and this coating protects it from further corrosion.  
        >
        > I go one step further in processing new foundry type. I immerse the whole font in a tray of mild oily solvent and let it soak for awhile until all the sides and bottom of the type are also fully coated as well. Then I take the font out of this oily bath and let it drain and dry for a day or two before distributing.
        >
        > This process will help protect all sides of the entire set of new type right from the start.  Of course, when I go to set the type at a later date, I don't want any residual oil on the face of the type when I use it. Otherwise it will mix with the ink in weird ways, or the ink won't adhere properly to the type. So after setting the block of type, when it's all locked up and in the chase and just before I print with it, I do one last step. I take a clean soft lint-free rag with some mild solvent on it and I wipe the top of the type lightly with a soft dry lint-free rag. This cleans the oily material off the face of the type just before I lock the type form in the press. 
        >
        > After printing, I take the chase out and clean the ink off the top with an old soft toothbrush soaked in mild solvent followed with a rag. At this point, I don't wipe the remaining solvent off with a dry rag...I leave it wet and let it dry on its own to leave a thin film of oily residue to protect the face of the type. This has kept my type in excellent condition over the years.
        >
        > Oh, one last thing. The lead in old paints can be toxic too. This is the most common cause of lead poisoning in the general population...especially in children. That usually happens with old peeling paint. Lead carbonate, I'm told (having never ingested it myself!) is sweet to the taste. That's why it's a danger to young children who are putting everything and anything in their mouths. If they find peeling lead paint chips on the ground that have fallen off a house (usually found on the outside of a house more than the inside, but of course it can be found in both places) then the children eat it--and because it's sweet, they eat more of it. By the way, that's why rats and mice will actually eat oxidized lead type...it's tasty. And some of us, who have gone into some pretty strange places in search of old rare type have come upon this phenomenon more than once! And those old molasses and glycerin rollers were tasty treats for them as well, but that's
        > another story altogether! 
        >
        > OK. I'd better stop now and see what lead induced weirdness I've stirred up for the rest of the list! 
        >
        > Best wishes, 
        >
        > --Steve 
        >
        > Steve Robison
        > The Robison Press
        > Belmont, CA (just south of San Francisco)    
        > robisonsteve@...
        >
        >  
        >
        >  
        >
      • Gerald Lange
        Hi Steve Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn t. White lead is good
        Message 3 of 17 , Jul 8, 2011
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          Hi Steve

          Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.

          At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.

          By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
        • okintertype
          Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957).
          Message 4 of 17 , Jul 9, 2011
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            Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
            Stan


            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Steve
            >
            > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
            >
            > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
            >
            > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
            >
            > Gerald
            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            >
          • Gerald Lange
            Stan Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint Gerald http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            Message 5 of 17 , Jul 10, 2011
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              Stan

              Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
              > Stan
              >
              >
              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Steve
              > >
              > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
              > >
              > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
              > >
              > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
              > >
              > > Gerald
              > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              > >
              >
            • Gerald Lange
              Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing How self serving is this? If you
              Message 6 of 17 , Jul 10, 2011
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                Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing

                How self serving is this? If you have been round and about you can even identify the me me culprits.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Stan
                >
                > Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                >
                > Gerald
                > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                > > Stan
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hi Steve
                > > >
                > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                > > >
                > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                > > >
                > > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                > > >
                > > > Gerald
                > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Erik Desmyter
                Hi Gerald, do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info? Best
                Message 7 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                  Hi Gerald,

                  do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?

                  Best regards,
                  Erik


                  Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                  ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.

                • Nick Smith
                  And what were the metal workers doing with ink? Nick ... -- Nicholas Smith Rare Books Dept - University Library West Rd, Cambridge CB3 9DR UK (0)1223 333123
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    And what were the metal workers doing with ink?

                    Nick

                    On 11/07/2011 08:32, Erik Desmyter wrote:  

                    Hi Gerald,


                    do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?

                    Best regards,
                    Erik


                    Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                    ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.



                    -- 
                    Nicholas Smith
                    Rare Books Dept - University Library
                    West Rd, Cambridge CB3 9DR UK
                    (0)1223 333123
                  • okintertype
                    My comments were specifically about white lead. We also used what was called a red lead primer. It was an excellent material and gave us 20-30 year s
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                      My comments were specifically about white lead. We also used what was called a "red lead primer." It was an excellent material and gave us 20-30 year's performance in many cases. I specified it as long as I was on the job (til 1986). Our painters who applied this primer in all cases tested out no higher than the general population. It has been claimed that in order for red lead to be a good exterior primer it has to be mostly insoluble. Thus is not absorbed by the body as much as some other lead compounds.

                      Don't ask me any more chemistry questions. I've been retired 18 years. :}
                      Stan


                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Stan
                      >
                      > Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                      > > Stan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Steve
                      > > >
                      > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                      > > >
                      > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                      > > >
                      > > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                      > > >
                      > > > Gerald
                      > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Erik I ve seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg s
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                        Erik

                        I've seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg's ink by Schwab in the 1980s. There are similarities in the compound to the "paint" (oil-based) used in the Flanders region to render colored religious images on medallions during the time period. And not found elsewhere. Interestingly, Coster's territory. The developments at Avignon (as reported by Ruppel) could also be examined in regard to precursors to the "invention." The "ink" that had been used for block printing for some very long time before Gutenberg, was not resistant to water. There is some discussion by DeVinne of the inking problems of the Mainz Psalter that could be seen, in retrospect, as loss of the formula. A reference to the possible origin of the ink appears in Ing and I believe Kapr as well. (?)

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Gerald,
                        >
                        > do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        > Erik
                        >
                        >
                        > Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                        > >>
                        > >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                        > >>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                        >
                      • Fritz Klinke
                        While Gerald’s contributions to the Wikipedia listing on letterpress can be readily detected as far as his interests and knowledge lie, some of the other
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          While Gerald’s contributions to the Wikipedia listing on letterpress can be readily detected as far as his interests and knowledge lie, some of the other stuff is of dubious value. As an example, the text under Industrial-scale use in the 20th Century uses the term oscillating for what I assume was a flat bed cylinder press and then attempts to describe a stereotype plate used on rotary newspaper presses and completely ignores any other rotary press used in both sheet fed and web fed letterpress presses that dominated 60 or more years of letterpress work that used plates other than stereotypes, mainly electrotypes, and also included photopolymer. A sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.
                           
                          Fritz
                           
                          Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:03 AM
                          Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: COMMENTS ON LEAD OXIDE…..AND OTHER PRINT SHOP TOXINS
                           
                           

                          Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress.

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing

                          How self serving is this? If you have been round and about you can even identify the me me culprits.

                          Gerald
                          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                          --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > Stan
                          >
                          >
                          Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                          >
                          >
                          href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                          >
                          > Gerald
                          >
                          href="http://BielerPress.blogspot.com">http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In
                          href="mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Well,
                          technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                          > >
                          Stan
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In
                          href="mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi
                          Steve
                          > > >
                          > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was
                          once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                          > > >
                          > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to
                          use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                          > > >
                          > > > By the way,
                          there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          Gerald
                          > > >
                          href="http://BielerPress.blogspot.com">http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • Gerald Lange
                          Hi Fritz Actually the only thing I added to the listing was the reference to my book, and even that took way too much effort. The problem with the Wikipedia is
                          Message 12 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                            Hi Fritz

                            Actually the only thing I added to the listing was the reference to my book, and even that took way too much effort. The problem with the Wikipedia is that if one knows something at all about a subject, it's quite bad, but if one doesn't know much about a subject, it seems as if it is useful. Yes, next to last choice.

                            Gerald
                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                            On 7/11/11 12:21 PM, Fritz Klinke wrote:
                            While Gerald’s contributions to the Wikipedia listing on letterpress can be readily detected as far as his interests and knowledge lie, some of the other stuff is of dubious value. As an example, the text under Industrial-scale use in the 20th Century uses the term oscillating for what I assume was a flat bed cylinder press and then attempts to describe a stereotype plate used on rotary newspaper presses and completely ignores any other rotary press used in both sheet fed and web fed letterpress presses that dominated 60 or more years of letterpress work that used plates other than stereotypes, mainly electrotypes, and also included photopolymer. A sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.
                             
                            Fritz
                             
                            Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 12:03 AM
                            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: COMMENTS ON LEAD OXIDE…..AND OTHER PRINT SHOP TOXINS
                             
                             

                            Oh indeed. Totally suspect. Here is the Wikepedia reference on letterpress.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letterpress_printing

                            How self serving is this? If you have been round and about you can even identify the me me culprits.

                            Gerald
                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                            --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Stan
                            >
                            > Lazily, this is a wikepedia reference to the paint comments:
                            >
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_paint
                            >
                            > Gerald
                            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Well, technically speaking, white lead is basic lead carbonate. White lead was already obsolete as a paint pigment by the time I got into the business (1957). Titanium Dioxide had been developed as a much superior replacement.
                            > > Stan
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In mailto:PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Steve
                            > > >
                            > > > Nice tome. Couple of things. I was once corrected for using the term lead carbonate as being incorrect. Not sure if it is or isn't. White lead is good enough for me.
                            > > >
                            > > > At any rate, last information I have is that this is actually legal to use in paint in the US, up to 5% for paint you will find in the hardware store, and unlimited for use on highways, parking lots, by the military. It actually provides preservative qualities to the paint. And yes, Mr. Gutenberg used quite a bit of it in his ink, the formula for which he took to his grave. Modern technology though has figured out a way to identify everything he ever printed simply because of the molecular composition of the ink used. The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                            > > >
                            > > > By the way, there is a great early 20th century book titled Lead and Zinc Pigments that details quite exhaustively the way the industry produced this stuff. The photos of the very young workers is quite tragic. Horrible working conditions, especially considering what we know now.
                            > > >
                            > > > Gerald
                            > > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >


                          • Ithaca Typothetae
                            ... Too bad a PIA Composition Manual-like committee couldn t outline the basics for a PIA Composition Manual-like video series. I know someone interested in
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                              sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choicehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—

                              Too bad a PIA Composition Manual-like committee couldn't outline the basics for a PIA Composition Manual-like video series. I know someone interested in pursuing this sort of thing. Granted his interest & experience are genuine(he's worked over 50 years in letterpress & offset shops in various positions), he's a great teacher, but again, it'll be from one man's perspective. I wonder if such an endeavor wouldn't benefit from the hive mind. 

                              I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.

                              And finally, just me personally curious here, but I'd like to know what Fritz's last choice would be.

                            • Fritz Klinke
                              Probably my office staff. That’s why I show up for work everyday just to answer questions. I don’t do any productive work anymore it seems. fritz From:
                              Message 14 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                                Probably my office staff. That’s why I show up for work everyday just to answer questions. I don’t do any productive work anymore it seems.
                                 
                                fritz
                                 
                                Sent: Monday, July 11, 2011 3:29 PM
                                Subject: [PPLetterpress] was COMMENTS ON LEAD . . .
                                 
                                 

                                sketchy and poorly done listing. The video cited as one of three examples of letterpress is a really poor choicehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7QBE3nYVY, and while maybe something is better than nothing, the entire letterpress listing despite Gerald’s contributions is lacking in overall information in my opinion. And no, I have no interest in adding to the listing—
                                 
                                Too bad a PIA Composition Manual-like committee couldn't outline the basics for a PIA Composition Manual-like video series. I know someone interested in pursuing this sort of thing. Granted his interest & experience are genuine(he's worked over 50 years in letterpress & offset shops in various positions), he's a great teacher, but again, it'll be from one man's perspective. I wonder if such an endeavor wouldn't benefit from the hive mind.

                                I think Wikipedia is my next to last choice for reliable information.

                                And finally, just me personally curious here, but I'd like to know what Fritz's last choice would be.

                              • Erik Desmyter
                                Gerald, interesting stuff. Around 1430-1440 new advanced oil painting techniques were introduced by Flemish painters like Jan van Eyck who didn t invent oil
                                Message 15 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
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                                  Gerald,

                                  interesting stuff. Around 1430-1440 new advanced oil painting techniques were introduced by Flemish painters like Jan van Eyck who didn't invent oil painting but he was traditionally known as the "father of oil painting" because of his improvements like adding oil, lead, etc... to paint. Timing seems to match with Gutenberg's ink a few years later

                                  Best regards,
                                  Erik


                                  > Erik
                                  >
                                  > I've seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg's ink by Schwab in the 1980s. There are similarities in the compound to the "paint" (oil-based) used in the Flanders region to render colored religious images on medallions during the time period. And not found elsewhere. Interestingly, Coster's territory. The developments at Avignon (as reported by Ruppel) could also be examined in regard to precursors to the "invention." The "ink" that had been used for block printing for some very long time before Gutenberg, was not resistant to water. There is some discussion by DeVinne of the inking problems of the Mainz Psalter that could be seen, in retrospect, as loss of the formula. A reference to the possible origin of the ink appears in Ing and I believe Kapr as well. (?)
                                  >
                                  > Gerald
                                  > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                  >
                                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@...> wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> Hi Gerald,
                                  >>
                                  >> do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?
                                  >>
                                  >> Best regards,
                                  >> Erik
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                                  >>>>
                                  >>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                                  >>>>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Gerald Lange
                                  Erik Thanks for the info. That tidbit is very useful. Gerald http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Jul 11, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Erik

                                    Thanks for the info. That tidbit is very useful.

                                    Gerald
                                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Gerald,
                                    >
                                    > interesting stuff. Around 1430-1440 new advanced oil painting techniques were introduced by Flemish painters like Jan van Eyck who didn't invent oil painting but he was traditionally known as the "father of oil painting" because of his improvements like adding oil, lead, etc... to paint. Timing seems to match with Gutenberg's ink a few years later
                                    >
                                    > Best regards,
                                    > Erik
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Erik
                                    > >
                                    > > I've seen this mentioned occasionally in the Gutenberg literature. It seems to have been collaborated by the cyclotron analysis conducted on Gutenberg's ink by Schwab in the 1980s. There are similarities in the compound to the "paint" (oil-based) used in the Flanders region to render colored religious images on medallions during the time period. And not found elsewhere. Interestingly, Coster's territory. The developments at Avignon (as reported by Ruppel) could also be examined in regard to precursors to the "invention." The "ink" that had been used for block printing for some very long time before Gutenberg, was not resistant to water. There is some discussion by DeVinne of the inking problems of the Mainz Psalter that could be seen, in retrospect, as loss of the formula. A reference to the possible origin of the ink appears in Ing and I believe Kapr as well. (?)
                                    > >
                                    > > Gerald
                                    > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Erik Desmyter <erik.desmyter@> wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Hi Gerald,
                                    > >>
                                    > >> do you have any historical references to your below quote linking Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this info?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Best regards,
                                    > >> Erik
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                                    > >>>>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He, of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius at appropriating.
                                    > >>
                                  • Chad Pastotnik
                                    Very useful tidbit of info for me as well. I started out (and still do) intaglio printing - engraving and mezzotint on copper and always make my own ink for
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jul 12, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Very useful tidbit of info for me as well. I started out (and still do) intaglio printing - engraving and mezzotint on copper and always make my own ink for editions. I've made ink for letterpress also but a very fine grain pigment must be used or expect to spend a lot of time mulling the ink. Letting it age for a week to months in advance is of great benefit also as it allows the linseed to fully saturate the pigments.

                                      Best way to get good earthtones, better than any PMS selection or similar offering from ink suppliers, just use the natural raw pigment like the days of old. I am also fond of Graphic Chemical's intaglio ink formulas and have modified them to work with letterpress as well in the past.

                                      Chad
                                      ___________________________
                                      Chad Pastotnik
                                      Deep Wood Press 231.587.0506
                                      http://www.deepwoodpress.com

                                      On Jul 12, 2011, at 12:13 AM, Gerald Lange wrote:

                                      > Nick
                                      >
                                      > Just interested in the origins of printing and typography. Helps me understand the basics. How about you?
                                      >
                                      > Gerald
                                      >
                                      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Nick Smith <nas1000@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> And what were the metal workers doing with ink?
                                      >>
                                      >> Nick
                                      >>
                                      >> On 11/07/2011 08:32, Erik Desmyter wrote:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Hi Gerald,
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> do you have any historical references to your below quote linking
                                      >>> Gutenberg to metal workers in Flanders? Or what is the source of this
                                      >>> info?
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Best regards,
                                      >>> Erik
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Op 11-jul-2011, om 05:54 heeft Gerald Lange het volgende geschreven:
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                      >>>>> <mailto:PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                                      >>>>>> ... The brilliant blacks of every Gutenberg Bible I have ever seen
                                      >>>>>> (two) is quite amazing, some five and a half centuries after. He,
                                      >>>>>> of course, did not invent the formula but rather appropriated it
                                      >>>>>> for better use from some metal workers in Flanders. He was a genius
                                      >>>>>> at appropriating.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> --
                                      >> Nicholas Smith
                                      >> Rare Books Dept - University Library
                                      >> West Rd, Cambridge CB3 9DR UK
                                      >> (0)1223 333123
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
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