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Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates

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  • Eric
    ... Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 18 2:39 PM
      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
      >
      > 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.

      Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
      --Eric Holub, SF
    • Ed Inman
      Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future)
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 18 8:09 PM
        Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.

        There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black & white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.

        Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html

        Ed



        -----Original Message-----
        >From: Eric <Megalonyx@...>

        >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates

        >--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
        >
        >Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
        >--Eric Holub, SF
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Gerald Lange
        Hi Ed Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me. I would hardly herald the
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 18 9:15 PM
          Hi Ed

          Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by
          a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me.

          I would hardly herald the end of film since my livelihood depends upon
          it. But it certainly behooves me to notify folks that the options are
          disappearing. There is far less choice in film today than there was just
          a few years ago, and far fewer suppliers of it. A great many of the
          "service bureaus" that were once relied upon in Los Angeles are now gone.

          Your reconstruction of my comment about the government is, of course,
          purposefully misleading. I did not say there were very recent
          governmental regulations to greatly reduce the life of ... film
          negatives. Please do not distort what someone says just to make your own
          point.

          My comment about changes in film chemistry are based on what suppliers
          have told me. I have no idea of what other areas of film production
          might be, per your reference to the Analog Photography Users Group, my
          concern is only to what is applicable to photopolymer plate processing.
          And to say that it does not look promising for the letterpress printer
          should not be so easily dismissed. We are not talking here about
          photography and the abilities of folks who are knowledgeable regarding
          using silver based film negatives in the darkroom.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com




          On 6/18/11 8:09 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
          > Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.
          >
          > There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black& white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.
          >
          > Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:
          >
          > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html
          >
          > Ed
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          >> From: Eric<Megalonyx@...>
          >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
          >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange"<Bieler@...> wrote:
          >>> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
          >> Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
          >> --Eric Holub, SF
          >>
          >>
          >
        • Gerald Lange
          Hi Eric I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time? There are great concerns among preservationists regarding the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 18 9:39 PM
            Hi Eric

            I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time? There are great concerns among preservationists regarding the degradation and usability of archived film in libraries, museums, the movie industry, etc. Over time silver does exhibit surface corrosion (any collector of coins knows that) and plastic leaches and decomposes. The Smithsonian has published reports about the corruption of its Barbie Doll and Space Suit collections due to the latter.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <Megalonyx@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
            > >
            > > 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
            >
            > Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
            > --Eric Holub, SF
            >
          • Ed Inman
            My response was to your direct quote, Gerald: The old mantra was save your negs. This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 18 9:44 PM
              My response was to your direct quote, Gerald:

              "The old mantra was 'save your negs.' This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year."

              I'll leave it to others to determine who is being "misleading," but I would maintain that if you are truly seeing your film negs "going bad between six months to a year" something is obviously being done wrong that has little to do with contemporary film chemistry or government regulations.

              Ed



              -----Original Message-----
              >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
              >Sent: Jun 18, 2011 11:15 PM
              >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
              >
              >Hi Ed
              >
              >Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by
              >a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me.
              >
              >I would hardly herald the end of film since my livelihood depends upon
              >it. But it certainly behooves me to notify folks that the options are
              >disappearing. There is far less choice in film today than there was just
              >a few years ago, and far fewer suppliers of it. A great many of the
              >"service bureaus" that were once relied upon in Los Angeles are now gone.
              >
              >Your reconstruction of my comment about the government is, of course,
              >purposefully misleading. I did not say there were very recent
              >governmental regulations to greatly reduce the life of ... film
              >negatives. Please do not distort what someone says just to make your own
              >point.
              >
              >My comment about changes in film chemistry are based on what suppliers
              >have told me. I have no idea of what other areas of film production
              >might be, per your reference to the Analog Photography Users Group, my
              >concern is only to what is applicable to photopolymer plate processing.
              >And to say that it does not look promising for the letterpress printer
              >should not be so easily dismissed. We are not talking here about
              >photography and the abilities of folks who are knowledgeable regarding
              >using silver based film negatives in the darkroom.
              >
              >Gerald
              >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >On 6/18/11 8:09 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
              >> Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.
              >>
              >> There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black& white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.
              >>
              >> Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:
              >>
              >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html
              >>
              >> Ed
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >>> From: Eric<Megalonyx@...>
              >>> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
              >>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange"<Bieler@...> wrote:
              >>>> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
              >>> Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
              >>> --Eric Holub, SF
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Gerald Lange
              Ed I ll stand by my statements. It s a mute point anyway. Most folks who buy processed photopolymer plates these days don t get the film negatives anyway. The
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 18 10:11 PM
                Ed

                I'll stand by my statements.

                It's a mute point anyway. Most folks who buy processed photopolymer
                plates these days don't get the film negatives anyway. The primary
                suppliers don't charge for film processing and are thus under no
                obligation to provide the film negs to their clients. They end up in
                silver recovery.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com




                On 6/18/11 9:44 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
                > My response was to your direct quote, Gerald:
                >
                > "The old mantra was 'save your negs.' This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year."
                >
                > I'll leave it to others to determine who is being "misleading," but I would maintain that if you are truly seeing your film negs "going bad between six months to a year" something is obviously being done wrong that has little to do with contemporary film chemistry or government regulations.
                >
                > Ed
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                >> From: Gerald Lange<Bieler@...>
                >> Sent: Jun 18, 2011 11:15 PM
                >> To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                >>
                >> Hi Ed
                >>
                >> Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by
                >> a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me.
                >>
                >> I would hardly herald the end of film since my livelihood depends upon
                >> it. But it certainly behooves me to notify folks that the options are
                >> disappearing. There is far less choice in film today than there was just
                >> a few years ago, and far fewer suppliers of it. A great many of the
                >> "service bureaus" that were once relied upon in Los Angeles are now gone.
                >>
                >> Your reconstruction of my comment about the government is, of course,
                >> purposefully misleading. I did not say there were very recent
                >> governmental regulations to greatly reduce the life of ... film
                >> negatives. Please do not distort what someone says just to make your own
                >> point.
                >>
                >> My comment about changes in film chemistry are based on what suppliers
                >> have told me. I have no idea of what other areas of film production
                >> might be, per your reference to the Analog Photography Users Group, my
                >> concern is only to what is applicable to photopolymer plate processing.
                >> And to say that it does not look promising for the letterpress printer
                >> should not be so easily dismissed. We are not talking here about
                >> photography and the abilities of folks who are knowledgeable regarding
                >> using silver based film negatives in the darkroom.
                >>
                >> Gerald
                >> http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> On 6/18/11 8:09 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
                >>> Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.
                >>>
                >>> There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black& white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.
                >>>
                >>> Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:
                >>>
                >>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html
                >>>
                >>> Ed
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> -----Original Message-----
                >>>> From: Eric<Megalonyx@...>
                >>>> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                >>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange"<Bieler@...> wrote:
                >>>>> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                >>>> Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                >>>> --Eric Holub, SF
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >
              • Gerald Lange
                Eric Just a bit of a reprise. I really have no idea about ALL graphic arts film, nor care. As I mentioned in another conversation, my only reference is in
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 19 12:12 AM
                  Eric

                  Just a bit of a reprise. I really have no idea about ALL graphic arts film, nor care. As I mentioned in another conversation, my only reference is in regard to photopolymer plate processing. But, yes, this does have to do with silver because I specifically asked my primary supplier (who also relayed the problematic information) about silver recovery; do you take cash or the silver? I thought it a bit odd because they took the cash. Silver has doubled in intrinsic value over the last two years. I assume it was a cash flow issue on their choice.

                  Gerald
                  http://Bielerpress.blogspot.com



                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Eric
                  >
                  > I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time? There are great concerns among preservationists regarding the degradation and usability of archived film in libraries, museums, the movie industry, etc. Over time silver does exhibit surface corrosion (any collector of coins knows that) and plastic leaches and decomposes. The Smithsonian has published reports about the corruption of its Barbie Doll and Space Suit collections due to the latter.
                  >
                  > Gerald
                  > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                  >
                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <Megalonyx@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                  > >
                  > > Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                  > > --Eric Holub, SF
                  > >
                  >
                • Eric
                  ... I m not asking for absolute permanence; we are all doomed in the long run. But I d like production materials to last until I decide to discard them. I ve
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 19 2:49 PM
                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time?

                    I'm not asking for absolute permanence; we are all doomed in the long run. But I'd like production materials to last until I decide to discard them.
                    I've been looking recently at some of my father's continuous tone negatives, going back to the 1930s. The silver emulsion is still fine, even when the carrier is not pristine. I installed a process camera in 1984, and still have tray-processed lith negs from that time that are unchanged. (It's only with rapid access film processing that the production environment assumes short life for the end product, with a very short fix and no need for a 10 or 20 minute wash.) I've made plates from 20-year old negs. I have also held negs more than six months before the job ever went to plate, so it looks like care will be needed with new outside negs.
                    However, silver is a real pollutant if not recovered from the spent fix; it kills the helpful bacteria at the sewage plant. But the amount of illegally-disposed fix must be a fraction of what it was 10 years ago, due to technological changes, so it's hard to imagine any political pressure for reformualtion. Hell, I bet illegally-disposed inkjet cartridges outweigh fix by far.
                    --Eric Holub, SF
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