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Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates

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  • okintertype
    Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 15, 2011
      Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
    • Eric
      ... I ve seen old material go moldy, or shatter, pretty obvious when you see it. Gerald can give you a better idea of stated shelf life, which isn t that long
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 15, 2011
        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@...> wrote:
        >
        > Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
        >

        I've seen old material go moldy, or shatter, pretty obvious when you see it. Gerald can give you a better idea of stated shelf life, which isn't that long (for best results).
        Eric Holub, SF
      • author50401
        Stan: I ve had good success with plates to about 18 months or a bit more from purchase. I m not certain what the rated shelf life is, but if they are stored in
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 16, 2011
          Stan:

          I've had good success with plates to about 18 months or a bit more from purchase. I'm not certain what the rated shelf life is, but if they are stored in cool dry place, they will do fine. It is always good to order your plates from a source which has a lot of turnover in their inventory so you are getting the freshest plate material you can. The plates go bad whether on your shelf or on the vendor's shelf.

          In my experience, when they start to go bad, they will start to "dark expose", which means that the photopolymer will start to harden without exposure, making washout more difficult, and you will start to have problems caused by too long a washout.

          I have been caught holding too many plates in the past, so I tend now to purchase a three month's supply, and forego the discount available with higher quantities as I don't want to get caught again with unusable plate material.

          John Henry



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
          >
        • Gerald Lange
          Stan I m not sure if you are talking about raw stock or exposed photopolymer plates. If raw stock, these generally are given a shelf life of a year, though
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 16, 2011
            Stan

            I'm not sure if you are talking about raw stock or exposed photopolymer plates.

            If raw stock, these generally are given a shelf life of a year, though some of them are listed at three months. They DO last longer than that under proper storage conditions. And they can be freshened up a bit with a carbon dioxide bath.

            The enemies of photopolymer are ozone, high temperature, ultraviolet light. . . Summer months are worse than the winter months.

            If exposed photopolymer, well, it does not last long though I have had plates still valid after about a year of storage. If they still have tack (to the touch) and have not curled, cracked, or turned stiff they may still be printable. Once they are gone they are just plastic, which isn't the best printing surface.

            Mainly, don't let them sit around unprotected before and after printing. After printing clean them well, use a plate protection product like Stay Kleen, or an antioxident like Armourall, put them in a ziplock bag (breath into it before closing as that will add carbon dioxide and moisture), and keep them stored in a cool place away from further exposure to light (or wrap them in black plastic).

            Like raw photopolymer, exposed plates can be revived somewhat with a carbon dioxide bath. Basically a closed storage unit with open racks and a tub at the bottom in which you would put dry ice. This will also relax curled plates.

            I occasionally put dry ice in the dark room overnight, out of superstition. and just for luck.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@...> wrote:
            >
            > Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
            >
          • okintertype
            Thanks for the thorough explanation. I didn t realize they were so delicate. The reason for my question is a quantity available for free on Briar press that
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 16, 2011
              Thanks for the thorough explanation. I didn't realize they were so delicate. The reason for my question is a quantity available for free on Briar press that is 21 years old. Doesn't sound like a good deal. :}
              Stan

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
              >
              > Stan
              >
              > I'm not sure if you are talking about raw stock or exposed photopolymer plates.
              >
              > If raw stock, these generally are given a shelf life of a year, though some of them are listed at three months. They DO last longer than that under proper storage conditions. And they can be freshened up a bit with a carbon dioxide bath.
              >
              > The enemies of photopolymer are ozone, high temperature, ultraviolet light. . . Summer months are worse than the winter months.
              >
              > If exposed photopolymer, well, it does not last long though I have had plates still valid after about a year of storage. If they still have tack (to the touch) and have not curled, cracked, or turned stiff they may still be printable. Once they are gone they are just plastic, which isn't the best printing surface.
              >
              > Mainly, don't let them sit around unprotected before and after printing. After printing clean them well, use a plate protection product like Stay Kleen, or an antioxident like Armourall, put them in a ziplock bag (breath into it before closing as that will add carbon dioxide and moisture), and keep them stored in a cool place away from further exposure to light (or wrap them in black plastic).
              >
              > Like raw photopolymer, exposed plates can be revived somewhat with a carbon dioxide bath. Basically a closed storage unit with open racks and a tub at the bottom in which you would put dry ice. This will also relax curled plates.
              >
              > I occasionally put dry ice in the dark room overnight, out of superstition. and just for luck.
              >
              > Gerald
              > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
              > >
              >
            • Gerald Lange
              Just a few updates to this. 1) You can Google Stay Kleen, just add the word photopolymer to your search. It is the best solution I have found for preventing
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 17, 2011
                Just a few updates to this.

                1) You can Google Stay Kleen, just add the word photopolymer to your search. It is the best solution I have found for preventing the very annoying accumulation of material (ink, paper dust, lint) in the tacky sub-surface areas of the plate during printing. If your plate processor provides inked proofs with the plates, ask them not to, their cleaning lint just adds to your problem.

                2) All light contains some ultraviolet light.

                3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old. You are now better off preserving your original digital files and converting/translating them to current software as appropriate for your needs.

                4) Yes, in terms of longevity, you should buy raw material from a primary distributor. If you buy from someone who also makes plates, it stands to reason, and makes good business sense, that they would be dumping old stock.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks for the thorough explanation. I didn't realize they were so delicate. The reason for my question is a quantity available for free on Briar press that is 21 years old. Doesn't sound like a good deal. :}
                > Stan
                >
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Stan
                > >
                > > I'm not sure if you are talking about raw stock or exposed photopolymer plates.
                > >
                > > If raw stock, these generally are given a shelf life of a year, though some of them are listed at three months. They DO last longer than that under proper storage conditions. And they can be freshened up a bit with a carbon dioxide bath.
                > >
                > > The enemies of photopolymer are ozone, high temperature, ultraviolet light. . . Summer months are worse than the winter months.
                > >
                > > If exposed photopolymer, well, it does not last long though I have had plates still valid after about a year of storage. If they still have tack (to the touch) and have not curled, cracked, or turned stiff they may still be printable. Once they are gone they are just plastic, which isn't the best printing surface.
                > >
                > > Mainly, don't let them sit around unprotected before and after printing. After printing clean them well, use a plate protection product like Stay Kleen, or an antioxident like Armourall, put them in a ziplock bag (breath into it before closing as that will add carbon dioxide and moisture), and keep them stored in a cool place away from further exposure to light (or wrap them in black plastic).
                > >
                > > Like raw photopolymer, exposed plates can be revived somewhat with a carbon dioxide bath. Basically a closed storage unit with open racks and a tub at the bottom in which you would put dry ice. This will also relax curled plates.
                > >
                > > I occasionally put dry ice in the dark room overnight, out of superstition. and just for luck.
                > >
                > > Gerald
                > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "okintertype" <spthompson@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Is there a shelf life for photopolymer plates, and if so, how long is it? Can you also tell me how it degrades; i.e., what are the symptoms? Stan
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Eric
                ... Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 18, 2011
                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.

                  Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                  --Eric Holub, SF
                • Ed Inman
                  Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future)
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 18, 2011
                    Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.

                    There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black & white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.

                    Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:

                    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html

                    Ed



                    -----Original Message-----
                    >From: Eric <Megalonyx@...>

                    >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates

                    >--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                    >
                    >Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                    >--Eric Holub, SF
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Hi Ed Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me. I would hardly herald the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 18, 2011
                      Hi Ed

                      Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by
                      a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me.

                      I would hardly herald the end of film since my livelihood depends upon
                      it. But it certainly behooves me to notify folks that the options are
                      disappearing. There is far less choice in film today than there was just
                      a few years ago, and far fewer suppliers of it. A great many of the
                      "service bureaus" that were once relied upon in Los Angeles are now gone.

                      Your reconstruction of my comment about the government is, of course,
                      purposefully misleading. I did not say there were very recent
                      governmental regulations to greatly reduce the life of ... film
                      negatives. Please do not distort what someone says just to make your own
                      point.

                      My comment about changes in film chemistry are based on what suppliers
                      have told me. I have no idea of what other areas of film production
                      might be, per your reference to the Analog Photography Users Group, my
                      concern is only to what is applicable to photopolymer plate processing.
                      And to say that it does not look promising for the letterpress printer
                      should not be so easily dismissed. We are not talking here about
                      photography and the abilities of folks who are knowledgeable regarding
                      using silver based film negatives in the darkroom.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com




                      On 6/18/11 8:09 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
                      > Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.
                      >
                      > There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black& white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.
                      >
                      > Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:
                      >
                      > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html
                      >
                      > Ed
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: Eric<Megalonyx@...>
                      >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                      >> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange"<Bieler@...> wrote:
                      >>> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                      >> Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                      >> --Eric Holub, SF
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Hi Eric I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time? There are great concerns among preservationists regarding the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 18, 2011
                        Hi Eric

                        I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time? There are great concerns among preservationists regarding the degradation and usability of archived film in libraries, museums, the movie industry, etc. Over time silver does exhibit surface corrosion (any collector of coins knows that) and plastic leaches and decomposes. The Smithsonian has published reports about the corruption of its Barbie Doll and Space Suit collections due to the latter.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <Megalonyx@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                        >
                        > Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                        > --Eric Holub, SF
                        >
                      • Ed Inman
                        My response was to your direct quote, Gerald: The old mantra was save your negs. This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 18, 2011
                          My response was to your direct quote, Gerald:

                          "The old mantra was 'save your negs.' This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year."

                          I'll leave it to others to determine who is being "misleading," but I would maintain that if you are truly seeing your film negs "going bad between six months to a year" something is obviously being done wrong that has little to do with contemporary film chemistry or government regulations.

                          Ed



                          -----Original Message-----
                          >From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                          >Sent: Jun 18, 2011 11:15 PM
                          >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                          >
                          >Hi Ed
                          >
                          >Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by
                          >a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me.
                          >
                          >I would hardly herald the end of film since my livelihood depends upon
                          >it. But it certainly behooves me to notify folks that the options are
                          >disappearing. There is far less choice in film today than there was just
                          >a few years ago, and far fewer suppliers of it. A great many of the
                          >"service bureaus" that were once relied upon in Los Angeles are now gone.
                          >
                          >Your reconstruction of my comment about the government is, of course,
                          >purposefully misleading. I did not say there were very recent
                          >governmental regulations to greatly reduce the life of ... film
                          >negatives. Please do not distort what someone says just to make your own
                          >point.
                          >
                          >My comment about changes in film chemistry are based on what suppliers
                          >have told me. I have no idea of what other areas of film production
                          >might be, per your reference to the Analog Photography Users Group, my
                          >concern is only to what is applicable to photopolymer plate processing.
                          >And to say that it does not look promising for the letterpress printer
                          >should not be so easily dismissed. We are not talking here about
                          >photography and the abilities of folks who are knowledgeable regarding
                          >using silver based film negatives in the darkroom.
                          >
                          >Gerald
                          >http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >On 6/18/11 8:09 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
                          >> Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.
                          >>
                          >> There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black& white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.
                          >>
                          >> Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:
                          >>
                          >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html
                          >>
                          >> Ed
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> -----Original Message-----
                          >>> From: Eric<Megalonyx@...>
                          >>> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                          >>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange"<Bieler@...> wrote:
                          >>>> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                          >>> Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                          >>> --Eric Holub, SF
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >------------------------------------
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Ed I ll stand by my statements. It s a mute point anyway. Most folks who buy processed photopolymer plates these days don t get the film negatives anyway. The
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 18, 2011
                            Ed

                            I'll stand by my statements.

                            It's a mute point anyway. Most folks who buy processed photopolymer
                            plates these days don't get the film negatives anyway. The primary
                            suppliers don't charge for film processing and are thus under no
                            obligation to provide the film negs to their clients. They end up in
                            silver recovery.

                            Gerald
                            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com




                            On 6/18/11 9:44 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
                            > My response was to your direct quote, Gerald:
                            >
                            > "The old mantra was 'save your negs.' This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year."
                            >
                            > I'll leave it to others to determine who is being "misleading," but I would maintain that if you are truly seeing your film negs "going bad between six months to a year" something is obviously being done wrong that has little to do with contemporary film chemistry or government regulations.
                            >
                            > Ed
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            >> From: Gerald Lange<Bieler@...>
                            >> Sent: Jun 18, 2011 11:15 PM
                            >> To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                            >>
                            >> Hi Ed
                            >>
                            >> Well, first of all, you have not been on this list since day one, not by
                            >> a long shot. In fact, that honor belongs solely to me.
                            >>
                            >> I would hardly herald the end of film since my livelihood depends upon
                            >> it. But it certainly behooves me to notify folks that the options are
                            >> disappearing. There is far less choice in film today than there was just
                            >> a few years ago, and far fewer suppliers of it. A great many of the
                            >> "service bureaus" that were once relied upon in Los Angeles are now gone.
                            >>
                            >> Your reconstruction of my comment about the government is, of course,
                            >> purposefully misleading. I did not say there were very recent
                            >> governmental regulations to greatly reduce the life of ... film
                            >> negatives. Please do not distort what someone says just to make your own
                            >> point.
                            >>
                            >> My comment about changes in film chemistry are based on what suppliers
                            >> have told me. I have no idea of what other areas of film production
                            >> might be, per your reference to the Analog Photography Users Group, my
                            >> concern is only to what is applicable to photopolymer plate processing.
                            >> And to say that it does not look promising for the letterpress printer
                            >> should not be so easily dismissed. We are not talking here about
                            >> photography and the abilities of folks who are knowledgeable regarding
                            >> using silver based film negatives in the darkroom.
                            >>
                            >> Gerald
                            >> http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> On 6/18/11 8:09 PM, Ed Inman wrote:
                            >>> Gerald is an accomplished printer who often gives great advice, but he has also been heralding the end of film (and generally antagonistic about its future) since day one on this list. So anything he proclaims about film "going bad" in 6 months to a year needs to be considered in that light.
                            >>>
                            >>> There have, in fact, been no "very recent governmental regulations" to "greatly reduce" the life of any silver based black& white film negatives. At least none that have appeared on the Analog Photography Users Group or other professional photography sites where people actually know something about photo chemistry.
                            >>>
                            >>> Has film gotten more expensive? Yes. Is film indestructible? No. But most properly-processed silver based lith film negatives stored in a cool, dry environment will easily last 100 years, and a whole new generation is learning to appreciate the value of (and guarantee the future of) traditional camera films of all types:
                            >>>
                            >>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/8525839/Traditional-camera-film-makes-a-come-back.html
                            >>>
                            >>> Ed
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> -----Original Message-----
                            >>>> From: Eric<Megalonyx@...>
                            >>>> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Shelf Life for Photopolymer plates
                            >>>> --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange"<Bieler@...> wrote:
                            >>>>> 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                            >>>> Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                            >>>> --Eric Holub, SF
                            >>>>
                            >>>>
                            >
                          • Gerald Lange
                            Eric Just a bit of a reprise. I really have no idea about ALL graphic arts film, nor care. As I mentioned in another conversation, my only reference is in
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 19, 2011
                              Eric

                              Just a bit of a reprise. I really have no idea about ALL graphic arts film, nor care. As I mentioned in another conversation, my only reference is in regard to photopolymer plate processing. But, yes, this does have to do with silver because I specifically asked my primary supplier (who also relayed the problematic information) about silver recovery; do you take cash or the silver? I thought it a bit odd because they took the cash. Silver has doubled in intrinsic value over the last two years. I assume it was a cash flow issue on their choice.

                              Gerald
                              http://Bielerpress.blogspot.com



                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Eric
                              >
                              > I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time? There are great concerns among preservationists regarding the degradation and usability of archived film in libraries, museums, the movie industry, etc. Over time silver does exhibit surface corrosion (any collector of coins knows that) and plastic leaches and decomposes. The Smithsonian has published reports about the corruption of its Barbie Doll and Space Suit collections due to the latter.
                              >
                              > Gerald
                              > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                              >
                              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <Megalonyx@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > 3) The old mantra was "save your negs." This is no longer valid. Very recent governmental regulations and changes in film chemistry have greatly reduced the longevity of film negatives. I see film negs going bad between six months to a year. And I have perfectly fine film negatives that are well over a decade old.
                              > >
                              > > Do you think this is true for all graphic arts film, or just the RA film used in imagesetting? Are they getting rid of the silver? It should be that silver emulsion properly fixed and properly rinsed would be permanent. Machine-processed film would not have the same duration of fix and especially rinse that tray-developed film could.
                              > > --Eric Holub, SF
                              > >
                              >
                            • Eric
                              ... I m not asking for absolute permanence; we are all doomed in the long run. But I d like production materials to last until I decide to discard them. I ve
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 19, 2011
                                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I am not sure what you mean by permanent. How long is that? To the end of time?

                                I'm not asking for absolute permanence; we are all doomed in the long run. But I'd like production materials to last until I decide to discard them.
                                I've been looking recently at some of my father's continuous tone negatives, going back to the 1930s. The silver emulsion is still fine, even when the carrier is not pristine. I installed a process camera in 1984, and still have tray-processed lith negs from that time that are unchanged. (It's only with rapid access film processing that the production environment assumes short life for the end product, with a very short fix and no need for a 10 or 20 minute wash.) I've made plates from 20-year old negs. I have also held negs more than six months before the job ever went to plate, so it looks like care will be needed with new outside negs.
                                However, silver is a real pollutant if not recovered from the spent fix; it kills the helpful bacteria at the sewage plant. But the amount of illegally-disposed fix must be a fraction of what it was 10 years ago, due to technological changes, so it's hard to imagine any political pressure for reformualtion. Hell, I bet illegally-disposed inkjet cartridges outweigh fix by far.
                                --Eric Holub, SF
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