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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

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  • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
    Gerald, deboss the entire border/edge ... do you mean... let s say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using
    Message 1 of 15 , May 9 5:10 AM
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      Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
      let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: bielerpr
      Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

       

      Anne and others

      Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.

      It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.

      I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dan
      >
      > The piece is similar to this
      >
      > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
      >
      > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
      > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
      > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
      > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
      > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
      > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
      > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
      > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
      > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
      > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
      > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
      > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
      > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
      > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
      >
      > Gerald
      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
      >
      >
      > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
      > >>
      > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
      > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
      > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
      > >>
      > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
      > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
      > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
      > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
      > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
      > >
      > > Thanks.
      > >
      > > Dan Franklin
      > > The Two Sisters Press
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >



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      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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    • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
      I appreciate your suggestion. With my very limited experience, or rather inexperience, I did not know of KM 73. Thank you. After all the help I ve received, I
      Message 2 of 15 , May 9 5:27 AM
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        I appreciate your suggestion. With my very limited experience, or rather inexperience, I did not know of KM 73. Thank you.
         
        After all the help I've received, I will reduce the illustration to 4 x 6 (trying to adhere to Dick G's suggestion), using .25 pt line width (using Gerald's method), and look into finding a source for the KM 73 (perhaps the same source has it as well). In the future I will try using different plates for debossing as Gerald suggested.
         
        So much fun! Thanks to all of you.
         
        BTW, the illustration is from an engraving of Don Quixote which was produced around the same time as my press. I studied Cervantes' work for 3 years in graduate school and my family endured "soap opera" discussions during dinner while I studied each chapter. Don Quixote is almost a member of our family ;0)
         
        The reason I was including all the detail was in keeping it "quixotic"- an illusion within an illusion. Including all the elements of the original engraving, then everytime you studied it you would see different aspects within the illustration.
         
        But for now, perhaps I should start with a business card ?!? LOL
         
        D
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 11:05 PM
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

         

        I think you will find that a plate with less relief will work better for embossing. I have used the KM73 plates (.020" relief) to good advantage in embossing. When manager of a photoengraving shop in the 1980s, we routinely made embossing dies in brass and magnesium with .020-.025" relief. Much more than that will tear the fibers of the paper unless heat is used (which cannot be done with photopolymer).

        You don't mention what type of paper you intend to use. That also can make a great difference in the effect of the embossing dies. You might want to develop your embossing skills by starting with a smaller image (less cost).

        John Henry
        Cedar Creek Press

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "treehouseletterpress" <inquiry@...> wrote:
        >
        > Please help as I am new to letterpress. I am using a C & P 10 x 15. I am attempting to redraw raster to vector by hand using a 2 pt line width in illustrator. I would like to emboss the foreground and deboss the background in different passes. The overall image will be 8 x 10. It is very(very) detailed which brings questions concerning limitations:
        >
        > How much space is required between lines?
        > should I use KF95 for deboss and KF152 for emboss male/female?
        > do exposure times vary significantly if all line art is the same line width
        > is it possible to use the same deep relief base for both the KF95 and KF152 if adjustments are made
        > Do the lines have to be 3 pts for poly plates (I was told by metal die manufac that a 2 pt was acceptable for a metal die)
        >
        >
        > A metal die would be cost prohibitive in its current size and therefore I am attempting to figure it out with poly plates.
        >
        > I realize answering some of the above could possibly be time consuming and I am thanking you all in advance for any suggestions offered.
        >



        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
      • bielerpr
        Hi again In regard to the previous email, yes Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the
        Message 3 of 15 , May 9 1:12 PM
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          Hi again

          In regard to the previous email, yes

          "Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?..."

          would be correct. Sorry for the typo.

          To create a "embossed" circle you would just have a plate made of the inverse of the circle. If the circle were to be printed, or anything else, yes, the printing should be laid down first, or you might experience disturbances of the paper.

          Interesting story about your knowledge of Don Quixote and the illusion thing. There is an oval shaped silver proof coin from the Republic of Palau, issued in 2008 I think, featuring Don Quixote that uses a similar conceit. Coins are quite interesting in regard to a study of image shape and relief. Especially those that were designed by sculpturers.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
          >
          > Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
          > let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: bielerpr
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
          >
          >
          >
          > Anne and others
          >
          > Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.
          >
          > It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.
          >
          > I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."
          >
          > Gerald
          > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Dan
          > >
          > > The piece is similar to this
          > >
          > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
          > >
          > > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
          > > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
          > > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
          > > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
          > > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
          > > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
          > > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
          > > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
          > > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
          > > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
          > > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
          > > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
          > > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
          > > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
          > >
          > > Gerald
          > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          > >
          > >
          > > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
          > > >>
          > > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
          > > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
          > > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
          > > >>
          > > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
          > > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
          > > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
          > > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
          > > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks.
          > > >
          > > > Dan Franklin
          > > > The Two Sisters Press
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
          >
        • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
          To Gerald and all those that attempted to help...thank you. When I ve gotten it just the way I want it...I will share it so that I can improve upon it. D ...
          Message 4 of 15 , May 9 2:04 PM
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            To Gerald and all those that attempted to help...thank you.
            When I've gotten it just the way I want it...I will share it so that I can improve upon it.
            D
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: bielerpr
            Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 4:12 PM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

             

            Hi again

            In regard to the previous email, yes

            "Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?..."

            would be correct. Sorry for the typo.

            To create a "embossed" circle you would just have a plate made of the inverse of the circle. If the circle were to be printed, or anything else, yes, the printing should be laid down first, or you might experience disturbances of the paper.

            Interesting story about your knowledge of Don Quixote and the illusion thing. There is an oval shaped silver proof coin from the Republic of Palau, issued in 2008 I think, featuring Don Quixote that uses a similar conceit. Coins are quite interesting in regard to a study of image shape and relief. Especially those that were designed by sculpturers.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
            >
            > Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
            > let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: bielerpr
            > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
            > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
            >
            >
            >
            > Anne and others
            >
            > Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.
            >
            > It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.
            >
            > I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."
            >
            > Gerald
            > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            >
            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Dan
            > >
            > > The piece is similar to this
            > >
            > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
            > >
            > > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
            > > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
            > > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
            > > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
            > > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
            > > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
            > > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
            > > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
            > > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
            > > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
            > > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
            > > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
            > > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
            > > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
            > >
            > > Gerald
            > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
            > >
            > >
            > > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
            > > >>
            > > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
            > > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
            > > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
            > > >>
            > > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
            > > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
            > > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
            > > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
            > > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks.
            > > >
            > > > Dan Franklin
            > > > The Two Sisters Press
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
            >



            No virus found in this incoming message.
            Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3626 - Release Date: 05/09/11 06:35:00
          • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
            Looked up the coin. Fascinating! Found Don Quixote and Sancho...not to be a stickler for authenticity, but his hat does not follow literary description. It was
            Message 5 of 15 , May 9 2:24 PM
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              Looked up the coin. Fascinating! Found Don Quixote and Sancho...not to be a stickler for authenticity, but his hat does not follow literary description. It was actually a barber's basin and shaped differently :0) None the less, thank you so very much for sharing the coin with me. I marvel that Cervantes' work was written 400+ yrs ago and we are still talking about it in one form or another.
              Thank you Gerald.
              D
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bielerpr
              Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 4:12 PM
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

               

              Hi again

              In regard to the previous email, yes

              "Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?..."

              would be correct. Sorry for the typo.

              To create a "embossed" circle you would just have a plate made of the inverse of the circle. If the circle were to be printed, or anything else, yes, the printing should be laid down first, or you might experience disturbances of the paper.

              Interesting story about your knowledge of Don Quixote and the illusion thing. There is an oval shaped silver proof coin from the Republic of Palau, issued in 2008 I think, featuring Don Quixote that uses a similar conceit. Coins are quite interesting in regard to a study of image shape and relief. Especially those that were designed by sculpturers.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
              > let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: bielerpr
              > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
              > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
              >
              >
              >
              > Anne and others
              >
              > Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.
              >
              > It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.
              >
              > I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."
              >
              > Gerald
              > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              >
              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Dan
              > >
              > > The piece is similar to this
              > >
              > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
              > >
              > > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
              > > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
              > > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
              > > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
              > > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
              > > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
              > > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
              > > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
              > > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
              > > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
              > > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
              > > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
              > > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
              > > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
              > >
              > > Gerald
              > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              > >
              > >
              > > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
              > > >>
              > > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
              > > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
              > > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
              > > >>
              > > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
              > > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
              > > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
              > > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
              > > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
              > > >
              > > > Thanks.
              > > >
              > > > Dan Franklin
              > > > The Two Sisters Press
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
              >



              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
              Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3626 - Release Date: 05/09/11 06:35:00
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