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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

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  • Gerald Lange
    Hi Dan The piece is similar to this http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/ a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
    Message 1 of 15 , May 8, 2011
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      Hi Dan

      The piece is similar to this

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/

      a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging. In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out, it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


      On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
      Gerald Lange wrote ...
       

      Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.

      Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from underneath the sheet,' so to speak?

      Thanks.

      Dan Franklin
      The Two Sisters Press


    • Gerald Lange
      Good old auto word substitution. Gimlet should be giclee. Actually, I am having so much trouble getting email out because of certificate problems, I am far
      Message 2 of 15 , May 8, 2011
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        Good old auto word substitution. Gimlet should be giclee. Actually, I am having so much trouble getting email out because of certificate problems, I am far less worred about spelling errors, than just being able to send. Thank you AT&T, er, the beast that walketh the earth with no name.

        Gerald

        On 5/8/11 1:18 AM, Gerald Lange wrote:
        Hi Dan

        The piece is similar to this

        http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/

        a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging. In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out, it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


        On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
        Gerald Lange wrote ...
         

        Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.

        Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from underneath the sheet,' so to speak?

        Thanks.

        Dan Franklin
        The Two Sisters Press



      • bielerpr
        Anne and others Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician s work. It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be
        Message 3 of 15 , May 8, 2011
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          Anne and others

          Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.

          It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.

          I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Dan
          >
          > The piece is similar to this
          >
          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
          >
          > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
          > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
          > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
          > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
          > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
          > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
          > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
          > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
          > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
          > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
          > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
          > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
          > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
          > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
          >
          > Gerald
          > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
          >
          >
          > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
          > >>
          > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
          > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
          > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
          > >>
          > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
          > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
          > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
          > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
          > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
          > >
          > > Thanks.
          > >
          > > Dan Franklin
          > > The Two Sisters Press
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • author50401
          I think you will find that a plate with less relief will work better for embossing. I have used the KM73 plates (.020 relief) to good advantage in embossing.
          Message 4 of 15 , May 8, 2011
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            I think you will find that a plate with less relief will work better for embossing. I have used the KM73 plates (.020" relief) to good advantage in embossing. When manager of a photoengraving shop in the 1980s, we routinely made embossing dies in brass and magnesium with .020-.025" relief. Much more than that will tear the fibers of the paper unless heat is used (which cannot be done with photopolymer).

            You don't mention what type of paper you intend to use. That also can make a great difference in the effect of the embossing dies. You might want to develop your embossing skills by starting with a smaller image (less cost).

            John Henry
            Cedar Creek Press

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "treehouseletterpress" <inquiry@...> wrote:
            >
            > Please help as I am new to letterpress. I am using a C & P 10 x 15. I am attempting to redraw raster to vector by hand using a 2 pt line width in illustrator. I would like to emboss the foreground and deboss the background in different passes. The overall image will be 8 x 10. It is very(very) detailed which brings questions concerning limitations:
            >
            > How much space is required between lines?
            > should I use KF95 for deboss and KF152 for emboss male/female?
            > do exposure times vary significantly if all line art is the same line width
            > is it possible to use the same deep relief base for both the KF95 and KF152 if adjustments are made
            > Do the lines have to be 3 pts for poly plates (I was told by metal die manufac that a 2 pt was acceptable for a metal die)
            >
            >
            > A metal die would be cost prohibitive in its current size and therefore I am attempting to figure it out with poly plates.
            >
            > I realize answering some of the above could possibly be time consuming and I am thanking you all in advance for any suggestions offered.
            >
          • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
            Gerald, I was converting to vector just in case I had to resort to a metal die. The die companies I ve talked to require vector and they also asked for 2 pt
            Message 5 of 15 , May 9, 2011
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              Gerald,
              I was converting to vector just in case I had to resort to a metal die. The die companies I've talked to require vector and they also asked for 2 pt lines, but maybe I misunderstood..
               
              If I can use .25 line width in the illustration then I will be able to reduce the image size.
               
              I think what I am referring to for the space between lines is called bridging (?)...maybe.
               
              "You can use a deep relief plate to print the standard plates. The difference would be a .022 underlay. Both plates actually have the same relative reverse relief depth (about .30 mm)—basically, counter depth—so there is no real need to switch between both."
                      Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?...
               
              I would love to learn more about creating an embossed look using multiple debossing...perhaps for a discussion later?
               
              Thank you for respoonding,
              D

               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: bielerpr
              Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 1:56 AM
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

               

              Treehouse of Blue Ridge

              Not sure why you are trying to convert raster to vector for images. But that is a whole different discussion.

              Photopolymer plates can handle down to a quarter of a point line width though I'm not sure this would hold up under extreme impression. I use registration lines at a quarter of a point.

              I'm not sure what you mean by leaving space between lines.

              If you are going to emboss you will need male/female plates. I don't know the correct type of plate you will need for this but I believe it might not be the plates you mention.

              Exposure times, washout times, and drying times do vary between the two depths of plates. It could be iffy.

              You can use a deep relief plate to print the standard plates. The difference would be a .022 underlay. Both plates actually have the same relative reverse relief depth (about .30 mm)—basically, counter depth—so there is no real need to switch between both.

              Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did this for a client and it was quite amazing to see. His idea, not mine.

              Nothing is impossible with this but if you can post some pics of the intention, members might be able to direct you more appropriately.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you Dick G,
              > I can size it smaller. Can the lines be 2 pt width or smaller? And, how close (bridge?) can they be to one another?
              > D
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Richard Goodwin
              > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 7:13 AM
              > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
              >
              >
              >
              > If you are using a 10x15 and are trying to emboss a 8x10 image you will definately have problems, your image requires way more pressure than a 10x15 can provide, you will not be happy with the results or you could hurt the press, an image 1/4 the size of this might work but i wouldn't even try an 8x10. Good Luck Dick G.
              >
              > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "treehouseletterpress" <inquiry@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Please help as I am new to letterpress. I am using a C & P 10 x 15. I am attempting to redraw raster to vector by hand using a 2 pt line width in illustrator. I would like to emboss the foreground and deboss the background in different passes. The overall image will be 8 x 10. It is very(very) detailed which brings questions concerning limitations:
              > >
              > > How much space is required between lines?
              > > should I use KF95 for deboss and KF152 for emboss male/female?
              > > do exposure times vary significantly if all line art is the same line width
              > > is it possible to use the same deep relief base for both the KF95 and KF152 if adjustments are made
              > > Do the lines have to be 3 pts for poly plates (I was told by metal die manufac that a 2 pt was acceptable for a metal die)
              > >
              > >
              > > A metal die would be cost prohibitive in its current size and therefore I am attempting to figure it out with poly plates.
              > >
              > > I realize answering some of the above could possibly be time consuming and I am thanking you all in advance for any suggestions offered.



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            • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
              Gerald, deboss the entire border/edge ... do you mean... let s say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using
              Message 6 of 15 , May 9, 2011
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                Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
                let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: bielerpr
                Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
                Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

                 

                Anne and others

                Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.

                It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.

                I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Dan
                >
                > The piece is similar to this
                >
                > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
                >
                > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
                > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
                > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
                > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
                > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
                > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
                > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
                > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
                > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
                > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
                > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
                > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
                > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
                > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
                >
                > Gerald
                > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                >
                >
                > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
                > >>
                > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
                > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
                > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
                > >>
                > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
                > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
                > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
                > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
                > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
                > >
                > > Thanks.
                > >
                > > Dan Franklin
                > > The Two Sisters Press
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >



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                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
              • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
                I appreciate your suggestion. With my very limited experience, or rather inexperience, I did not know of KM 73. Thank you. After all the help I ve received, I
                Message 7 of 15 , May 9, 2011
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                  I appreciate your suggestion. With my very limited experience, or rather inexperience, I did not know of KM 73. Thank you.
                   
                  After all the help I've received, I will reduce the illustration to 4 x 6 (trying to adhere to Dick G's suggestion), using .25 pt line width (using Gerald's method), and look into finding a source for the KM 73 (perhaps the same source has it as well). In the future I will try using different plates for debossing as Gerald suggested.
                   
                  So much fun! Thanks to all of you.
                   
                  BTW, the illustration is from an engraving of Don Quixote which was produced around the same time as my press. I studied Cervantes' work for 3 years in graduate school and my family endured "soap opera" discussions during dinner while I studied each chapter. Don Quixote is almost a member of our family ;0)
                   
                  The reason I was including all the detail was in keeping it "quixotic"- an illusion within an illusion. Including all the elements of the original engraving, then everytime you studied it you would see different aspects within the illustration.
                   
                  But for now, perhaps I should start with a business card ?!? LOL
                   
                  D
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 11:05 PM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

                   

                  I think you will find that a plate with less relief will work better for embossing. I have used the KM73 plates (.020" relief) to good advantage in embossing. When manager of a photoengraving shop in the 1980s, we routinely made embossing dies in brass and magnesium with .020-.025" relief. Much more than that will tear the fibers of the paper unless heat is used (which cannot be done with photopolymer).

                  You don't mention what type of paper you intend to use. That also can make a great difference in the effect of the embossing dies. You might want to develop your embossing skills by starting with a smaller image (less cost).

                  John Henry
                  Cedar Creek Press

                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "treehouseletterpress" <inquiry@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Please help as I am new to letterpress. I am using a C & P 10 x 15. I am attempting to redraw raster to vector by hand using a 2 pt line width in illustrator. I would like to emboss the foreground and deboss the background in different passes. The overall image will be 8 x 10. It is very(very) detailed which brings questions concerning limitations:
                  >
                  > How much space is required between lines?
                  > should I use KF95 for deboss and KF152 for emboss male/female?
                  > do exposure times vary significantly if all line art is the same line width
                  > is it possible to use the same deep relief base for both the KF95 and KF152 if adjustments are made
                  > Do the lines have to be 3 pts for poly plates (I was told by metal die manufac that a 2 pt was acceptable for a metal die)
                  >
                  >
                  > A metal die would be cost prohibitive in its current size and therefore I am attempting to figure it out with poly plates.
                  >
                  > I realize answering some of the above could possibly be time consuming and I am thanking you all in advance for any suggestions offered.
                  >



                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                  Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
                • bielerpr
                  Hi again In regard to the previous email, yes Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 9, 2011
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                    Hi again

                    In regard to the previous email, yes

                    "Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?..."

                    would be correct. Sorry for the typo.

                    To create a "embossed" circle you would just have a plate made of the inverse of the circle. If the circle were to be printed, or anything else, yes, the printing should be laid down first, or you might experience disturbances of the paper.

                    Interesting story about your knowledge of Don Quixote and the illusion thing. There is an oval shaped silver proof coin from the Republic of Palau, issued in 2008 I think, featuring Don Quixote that uses a similar conceit. Coins are quite interesting in regard to a study of image shape and relief. Especially those that were designed by sculpturers.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
                    > let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: bielerpr
                    > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
                    > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Anne and others
                    >
                    > Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.
                    >
                    > It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.
                    >
                    > I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."
                    >
                    > Gerald
                    > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                    >
                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Dan
                    > >
                    > > The piece is similar to this
                    > >
                    > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
                    > >
                    > > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
                    > > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
                    > > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
                    > > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
                    > > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
                    > > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
                    > > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
                    > > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
                    > > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
                    > > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
                    > > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
                    > > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
                    > > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
                    > > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
                    > >
                    > > Gerald
                    > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
                    > > >>
                    > > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
                    > > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
                    > > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
                    > > >>
                    > > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
                    > > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
                    > > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
                    > > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
                    > > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks.
                    > > >
                    > > > Dan Franklin
                    > > > The Two Sisters Press
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
                    >
                  • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
                    To Gerald and all those that attempted to help...thank you. When I ve gotten it just the way I want it...I will share it so that I can improve upon it. D ...
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 9, 2011
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                      To Gerald and all those that attempted to help...thank you.
                      When I've gotten it just the way I want it...I will share it so that I can improve upon it.
                      D
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: bielerpr
                      Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 4:12 PM
                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

                       

                      Hi again

                      In regard to the previous email, yes

                      "Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?..."

                      would be correct. Sorry for the typo.

                      To create a "embossed" circle you would just have a plate made of the inverse of the circle. If the circle were to be printed, or anything else, yes, the printing should be laid down first, or you might experience disturbances of the paper.

                      Interesting story about your knowledge of Don Quixote and the illusion thing. There is an oval shaped silver proof coin from the Republic of Palau, issued in 2008 I think, featuring Don Quixote that uses a similar conceit. Coins are quite interesting in regard to a study of image shape and relief. Especially those that were designed by sculpturers.

                      Gerald
                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
                      > let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: bielerpr
                      > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
                      > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Anne and others
                      >
                      > Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.
                      >
                      > It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.
                      >
                      > I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."
                      >
                      > Gerald
                      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      >
                      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Dan
                      > >
                      > > The piece is similar to this
                      > >
                      > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
                      > >
                      > > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
                      > > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
                      > > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
                      > > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
                      > > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
                      > > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
                      > > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
                      > > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
                      > > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
                      > > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
                      > > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
                      > > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
                      > > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
                      > > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
                      > >
                      > > Gerald
                      > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
                      > > >>
                      > > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
                      > > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
                      > > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
                      > > >>
                      > > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
                      > > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
                      > > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
                      > > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
                      > > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks.
                      > > >
                      > > > Dan Franklin
                      > > > The Two Sisters Press
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
                      >



                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3626 - Release Date: 05/09/11 06:35:00
                    • Treehouse of Blue Ridge
                      Looked up the coin. Fascinating! Found Don Quixote and Sancho...not to be a stickler for authenticity, but his hat does not follow literary description. It was
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 9, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Looked up the coin. Fascinating! Found Don Quixote and Sancho...not to be a stickler for authenticity, but his hat does not follow literary description. It was actually a barber's basin and shaped differently :0) None the less, thank you so very much for sharing the coin with me. I marvel that Cervantes' work was written 400+ yrs ago and we are still talking about it in one form or another.
                        Thank you Gerald.
                        D
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: bielerpr
                        Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 4:12 PM
                        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations

                         

                        Hi again

                        In regard to the previous email, yes

                        "Do you mean a deep relief base for various plate thickness while adding an underlay to make up the difference?..."

                        would be correct. Sorry for the typo.

                        To create a "embossed" circle you would just have a plate made of the inverse of the circle. If the circle were to be printed, or anything else, yes, the printing should be laid down first, or you might experience disturbances of the paper.

                        Interesting story about your knowledge of Don Quixote and the illusion thing. There is an oval shaped silver proof coin from the Republic of Palau, issued in 2008 I think, featuring Don Quixote that uses a similar conceit. Coins are quite interesting in regard to a study of image shape and relief. Especially those that were designed by sculpturers.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Treehouse of Blue Ridge" <inquiry@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gerald, "deboss the entire border/edge"... do you mean...
                        > let's say you have a circle... you letterpress with one plate to create the circle, then using another plate deboss the periphery of the letterpressed circle? This sounds like a lot of fun to try...since I'm just learning and am giving myself room for errors as a newbie. -Don't know what my excuse will be years from now when I'm still making errors :0)
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: bielerpr
                        > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:10 AM
                        > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: line art limitations
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Anne and others
                        >
                        > Fine printing is just optical illusion, magician's work.
                        >
                        > It is not complicated. The simplistic version of the trick, and yes this would be applicable to wedding invitation cards, etc., is that you are at the very very least, debossing the entire border/edge of the piece. Everything else looks like it is embossed. If you work further in with debossing, it just gets more interesting. I also added hand applied bronzing to some of the areas of the printed proofs and that sparked it up quite a bit as well. Sort of let's throw everything at this one and see what works.
                        >
                        > I don't know that I have actually seen this before, since I was kind of struck by how it all turned out, but I would likely think it has been done before. "Those old fellows stole all our best ideas."
                        >
                        > Gerald
                        > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                        >
                        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi Dan
                        > >
                        > > The piece is similar to this
                        > >
                        > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/bielerpress/3957685902/
                        > >
                        > > a previously printed giclee with very ornamental and detailed imaging.
                        > > In this case the detail was to pop up and the areas that are flat took
                        > > the multiple debossing (different plates). Some of them printed as toned
                        > > flats (transparent inks). And some with other added opaque imaging
                        > > (filigree). Basically you can run your hands over it and feel the images
                        > > like the cloth on one of those old couches. And the embossed flats with
                        > > the added letterpress printing proffered a bit more to a sort of sensual
                        > > and vivid experience. There were some insects in the detail that needed
                        > > to be popped up. Getting those little legs into position was something
                        > > else. Yeah, registration was a major concern and nightmare, especially
                        > > with gimlet as the registration marks have to be cut in by hand. And, of
                        > > course, a long narrow piece on a cylinder press. I just proofed it out,
                        > > it hasn't been edition ed, yet. Gimlet isn't cheap in any way so not
                        > > sure how much further this one will go, but, an interesting experiment.
                        > >
                        > > Gerald
                        > > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On 5/7/11 11:26 PM, Daniel Franklin wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Gerald Lange wrote ...
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Not sure what the intent is if these are separated out though but you
                        > > >> CAN create an embossed look with multiple debossing. I recently did
                        > > >> this for a client and it was quite amazing to see.
                        > > >>
                        > > > Gerald, do you mean running the sheet through your Vandercook three or
                        > > > four times using the same plate, completing one sheet before grabbing
                        > > > the next? If so and fine lines are involved, I would be concerned
                        > > > about registration. Also, do you mean running the image 'from
                        > > > underneath the sheet,' so to speak?
                        > > >
                        > > > Thanks.
                        > > >
                        > > > Dan Franklin
                        > > > The Two Sisters Press
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > No virus found in this incoming message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3624 - Release Date: 05/08/11 06:34:00
                        >



                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3626 - Release Date: 05/09/11 06:35:00
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