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Choosing the right photopolymer.

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  • i_goonies
    Hello, it s time to buy some photopolymer for my Windmill! How do I choose it? Here in Italy I ve found 2 photopolymer brands: Toyobo and Tok. I ve a magnetic
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 21, 2011
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      Hello,
      it's time to buy some photopolymer for my Windmill!

      How do I choose it? Here in Italy I've found 2 photopolymer brands: Toyobo and Tok.

      I've a magnetic base, and people suggested me to use the steel-backed plates. I'd like to test both, but I'd like to try with the steel-backed ones.

      Some questions:
      - Are used the same photopolymer models for all the jobs?
      - How can I choose the right photopolymer thickness? Base+photopolymer = typeheight?

      Thanks!
      Fabio
    • i_goonies
      Some updates: I ve an European typeheight of 23.57mm and a base with a height of 22.63mm. So: 23.57mm - 22.63mm = __________ 0,94mm For my windmill I need a
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 22, 2011
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        Some updates:

        I've an European typeheight of 23.57mm and a base with a height of 22.63mm. So:

        23.57mm -
        22.63mm =
        __________
        0,94mm

        For my windmill I need a photopolymer with height 0,94mm.

        Between the "Miraclon" serie made by Tok there are some photopolymers with thickness of 0.94mm:

        (POLYESTER FILM BASE SUPPORT)
        B 94 F (25° Shore D.)
        MF 94 BM (65° Shore D.)
        CF 94 BT (55° Shore D.)
        DF 94 B (60° Shore D.)

        (STEEL BASE SUPPORT)
        B 94 S (25° Shore D.)
        B 94 SF (25° Shore D.)
        DS 94 C (60° Shore D.)
        MS 94 C (75° Shore D.)

        In the datasheets also the 25° Shore D. plates are specified for letterpress, but from what I've read here and on the Gerald's book the suggested shores are at least 65°.

        Can you please explain me if it's always better to choose higher shores photopolymers or if I need to choose the shores considering the job?

        Thanks!
        Fabio







        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "i_goonies" <neroinferno@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello,
        > it's time to buy some photopolymer for my Windmill!
        >
        > How do I choose it? Here in Italy I've found 2 photopolymer brands: Toyobo and Tok.
        >
        > I've a magnetic base, and people suggested me to use the steel-backed plates. I'd like to test both, but I'd like to try with the steel-backed ones.
        >
        > Some questions:
        > - Are used the same photopolymer models for all the jobs?
        > - How can I choose the right photopolymer thickness? Base+photopolymer = typeheight?
        >
        > Thanks!
        > Fabio
        >
      • Harold Kyle
        You re probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing. Hope this helps, Harold ...
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 22, 2011
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          You're probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing. 

          Hope this helps,
          Harold

          On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 9:46 AM, i_goonies <neroinferno@...> wrote:
           

          Some updates:

          I've an European typeheight of 23.57mm and a base with a height of 22.63mm. So:

          23.57mm -
          22.63mm =
          __________
          0,94mm

          For my windmill I need a photopolymer with height 0,94mm.

          Between the "Miraclon" serie made by Tok there are some photopolymers with thickness of 0.94mm:

          (POLYESTER FILM BASE SUPPORT)
          B 94 F (25° Shore D.)
          MF 94 BM (65° Shore D.)
          CF 94 BT (55° Shore D.)
          DF 94 B (60° Shore D.)

          (STEEL BASE SUPPORT)
          B 94 S (25° Shore D.)
          B 94 SF (25° Shore D.)
          DS 94 C (60° Shore D.)
          MS 94 C (75° Shore D.)

          In the datasheets also the 25° Shore D. plates are specified for letterpress, but from what I've read here and on the Gerald's book the suggested shores are at least 65°.

          Can you please explain me if it's always better to choose higher shores photopolymers or if I need to choose the shores considering the job?

          Thanks!
          Fabio



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "i_goonies" <neroinferno@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello,
          > it's time to buy some photopolymer for my Windmill!
          >
          > How do I choose it? Here in Italy I've found 2 photopolymer brands: Toyobo and Tok.
          >
          > I've a magnetic base, and people suggested me to use the steel-backed plates. I'd like to test both, but I'd like to try with the steel-backed ones.
          >
          > Some questions:
          > - Are used the same photopolymer models for all the jobs?
          > - How can I choose the right photopolymer thickness? Base+photopolymer = typeheight?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Fabio
          >




          --
          ---
          Boxcar Press
          501 W. Fayette St. #222
          Syracuse, NY  13204
          www.boxcarpress.com
        • i_goonies
          Hello Harold, thanks for the reply. For example what are these few reasons?! Thanks! Fabio
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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            Hello Harold,
            thanks for the reply. For example what are these few reasons?!

            Thanks!
            Fabio


            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
            >
            > You're probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few
            > reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing.
            >
            > Hope this helps,
            > Harold
            >
            > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 9:46 AM, i_goonies <neroinferno@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Some updates:
            > >
            > > I've an European typeheight of 23.57mm and a base with a height of 22.63mm.
            > > So:
            > >
            > > 23.57mm -
            > > 22.63mm =
            > > __________
            > > 0,94mm
            > >
            > > For my windmill I need a photopolymer with height 0,94mm.
            > >
            > > Between the "Miraclon" serie made by Tok there are some photopolymers with
            > > thickness of 0.94mm:
            > >
            > > (POLYESTER FILM BASE SUPPORT)
            > > B 94 F (25° Shore D.)
            > > MF 94 BM (65° Shore D.)
            > > CF 94 BT (55° Shore D.)
            > > DF 94 B (60° Shore D.)
            > >
            > > (STEEL BASE SUPPORT)
            > > B 94 S (25° Shore D.)
            > > B 94 SF (25° Shore D.)
            > > DS 94 C (60° Shore D.)
            > > MS 94 C (75° Shore D.)
            > >
            > > In the datasheets also the 25° Shore D. plates are specified for
            > > letterpress, but from what I've read here and on the Gerald's book the
            > > suggested shores are at least 65°.
            > >
            > > Can you please explain me if it's always better to choose higher shores
            > > photopolymers or if I need to choose the shores considering the job?
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > > Fabio
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "i_goonies" <neroinferno@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello,
            > > > it's time to buy some photopolymer for my Windmill!
            > > >
            > > > How do I choose it? Here in Italy I've found 2 photopolymer brands:
            > > Toyobo and Tok.
            > > >
            > > > I've a magnetic base, and people suggested me to use the steel-backed
            > > plates. I'd like to test both, but I'd like to try with the steel-backed
            > > ones.
            > > >
            > > > Some questions:
            > > > - Are used the same photopolymer models for all the jobs?
            > > > - How can I choose the right photopolymer thickness? Base+photopolymer =
            > > typeheight?
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > > Fabio
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > ---
            > Boxcar Press
            > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
            > Syracuse, NY 13204
            > www.boxcarpress.com
            >
          • Harold Kyle
            Well I should say I ve never encountered a case, nor would I hope to. I could see how a squishy plate could possibly help when printing a folded brown paper
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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              Well I should say I've never encountered a case, nor would I hope to. I could see how a squishy plate could possibly help when printing a folded brown paper bag with no discernable impression--when you want the "rubber stamp" effect. ;)

              Harold

              On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 4:08 AM, i_goonies <neroinferno@...> wrote:
               

              Hello Harold,
              thanks for the reply. For example what are these few reasons?!

              Thanks!
              Fabio



              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
              >
              > You're probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few
              > reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing.
              >
              > Hope this helps,
              > Harold
              >
              > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 9:46 AM, i_goonies <neroinferno@...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Some updates:
              > >
              > > I've an European typeheight of 23.57mm and a base with a height of 22.63mm.
              > > So:
              > >
              > > 23.57mm -
              > > 22.63mm =
              > > __________
              > > 0,94mm
              > >
              > > For my windmill I need a photopolymer with height 0,94mm.
              > >
              > > Between the "Miraclon" serie made by Tok there are some photopolymers with
              > > thickness of 0.94mm:
              > >
              > > (POLYESTER FILM BASE SUPPORT)
              > > B 94 F (25° Shore D.)
              > > MF 94 BM (65° Shore D.)
              > > CF 94 BT (55° Shore D.)
              > > DF 94 B (60° Shore D.)
              > >
              > > (STEEL BASE SUPPORT)
              > > B 94 S (25° Shore D.)
              > > B 94 SF (25° Shore D.)
              > > DS 94 C (60° Shore D.)
              > > MS 94 C (75° Shore D.)
              > >
              > > In the datasheets also the 25° Shore D. plates are specified for
              > > letterpress, but from what I've read here and on the Gerald's book the
              > > suggested shores are at least 65°.
              > >
              > > Can you please explain me if it's always better to choose higher shores
              > > photopolymers or if I need to choose the shores considering the job?
              > >
              > > Thanks!
              > > Fabio
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,

              > > "i_goonies" <neroinferno@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello,
              > > > it's time to buy some photopolymer for my Windmill!
              > > >
              > > > How do I choose it? Here in Italy I've found 2 photopolymer brands:
              > > Toyobo and Tok.
              > > >
              > > > I've a magnetic base, and people suggested me to use the steel-backed
              > > plates. I'd like to test both, but I'd like to try with the steel-backed
              > > ones.
              > > >
              > > > Some questions:
              > > > - Are used the same photopolymer models for all the jobs?
              > > > - How can I choose the right photopolymer thickness? Base+photopolymer =
              > > typeheight?
              > > >
              > > > Thanks!
              > > > Fabio
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > ---
              > Boxcar Press
              > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
              > Syracuse, NY 13204
              > www.boxcarpress.com
              >




              --
              ---
              Boxcar Press
              501 W. Fayette St. #222
              Syracuse, NY  13204
              www.boxcarpress.com
            • Eric
              ... . . . if the goal is deep impression. But if you have a thin or textured stock or are trying to do a kiss impression, then softer material can be useful.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
                >
                > You're probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few
                > reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing.

                . . . if the goal is deep impression. But if you have a thin or textured stock or are trying to do a kiss impression, then softer material can be useful.
                The reason the manufacturer recommends 25 shore for letterpress use is that most of the printing industry still doesn't know about the heavy impression thing, which is just a niche within letterpress. And that's why the hardest materials, the steel or aluminum backed molding plates, are not even listed on their letterpress page.
                --E Holub, SF
              • Gerald Lange
                Hi Eric I can only base an opinion on my experience which for many years now has primarily been the Toyobo Printight brand. But I note that the steel-backed
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 23, 2011
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                  Hi Eric

                  I can only base an opinion on my experience which for many years now has
                  primarily been the Toyobo Printight brand. But I note that the
                  steel-backed KM152 is rated harder than the polyester-backed KF152,
                  though the polyester-back KF95 and the steel-backed KM95 have the same
                  hardness rating (I think the same as the KM152).

                  Don't know why but I have been told there are simply technical
                  limitations regarding plate hardness, thickness, backing. Plates serve
                  all kinds of needs, the suitable letterpress range is fairly narrow.
                  Very hard plates such as the "molding" plates you reference aren't
                  necessarily for letterpress. Some resilience is necessary.

                  The above mentioned KF152 (which I recall has a hardness rating of 62D)
                  has had a number of complaints registered online (primarily Briar Press
                  Discussion) and it may simply be that it is too soft for its height and
                  backing and is less structurally suited for letterpress. My guess, anyway.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress.blogspot.com






                  On 1/23/11 8:06 PM, Eric wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle<harold@...> wrote:
                  >> You're probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few
                  >> reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing.
                  > . . . if the goal is deep impression. But if you have a thin or textured stock or are trying to do a kiss impression, then softer material can be useful.
                  > The reason the manufacturer recommends 25 shore for letterpress use is that most of the printing industry still doesn't know about the heavy impression thing, which is just a niche within letterpress. And that's why the hardest materials, the steel or aluminum backed molding plates, are not even listed on their letterpress page.
                  > --E Holub, SF
                  >
                • author50401
                  Fabio: The softer plates are used for rough or uneven surfaces. Soft plates are used for printing on corrugated cardboard, for instance. For the commercial
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 24, 2011
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                    Fabio:

                    The softer plates are used for rough or uneven surfaces. Soft plates are used for printing on corrugated cardboard, for instance. For the commercial printer, soft plates could find use in printing envelopes, or folded bags, eliminating the makeready necessary for harder durometer plates or printing type.

                    I find the harder plates more to my liking, and they hold fine detail very well, which is critical for my use of the materials.

                    John Henry
                    Cedar Creek Press

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "i_goonies" <neroinferno@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Harold,
                    > thanks for the reply. For example what are these few reasons?!
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    > Fabio
                    >
                    >
                  • Peter Fraterdeus
                    ... Or indeed if you are making photopolymer rubber-stamps! Slowprint.com / Semiotx.com From iPhone plz excuse brevity!
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 24, 2011
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                      > I could see how a squishy plate could possibly help when printing a folded brown paper bag with no discernable impression--when you want the "rubber stamp" effect. ;)


                      Or indeed if you are making photopolymer rubber-stamps!


                      Slowprint.com / Semiotx.com
                      From iPhone plz excuse brevity!

                      On Jan 23, 2011, at 9:19 PM, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >
                      > Well I should say I've never encountered a case, nor would I hope to. I could see how a squishy plate could possibly help when printing a folded brown paper bag with no discernable impression--when you want the "rubber stamp" effect. ;)
                      >
                      > Harold
                      >
                    • i_goonies
                      Thank you all guys :) It s always a pleasure and it s always confortable to know there are people like you all in this group ready to share their knowledge. I
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 24, 2011
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                        Thank you all guys :)

                        It's always a pleasure and it's always confortable to know there are people like you all in this group ready to share their knowledge.

                        I believe I'll take also the 25 Shores plates because priting stamps it's always another income.

                        Have a nice day!
                        Fabio



                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Eric
                        >
                        > I can only base an opinion on my experience which for many years now has
                        > primarily been the Toyobo Printight brand. But I note that the
                        > steel-backed KM152 is rated harder than the polyester-backed KF152,
                        > though the polyester-back KF95 and the steel-backed KM95 have the same
                        > hardness rating (I think the same as the KM152).
                        >
                        > Don't know why but I have been told there are simply technical
                        > limitations regarding plate hardness, thickness, backing. Plates serve
                        > all kinds of needs, the suitable letterpress range is fairly narrow.
                        > Very hard plates such as the "molding" plates you reference aren't
                        > necessarily for letterpress. Some resilience is necessary.
                        >
                        > The above mentioned KF152 (which I recall has a hardness rating of 62D)
                        > has had a number of complaints registered online (primarily Briar Press
                        > Discussion) and it may simply be that it is too soft for its height and
                        > backing and is less structurally suited for letterpress. My guess, anyway.
                        >
                        > Gerald
                        > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On 1/23/11 8:06 PM, Eric wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle<harold@> wrote:
                        > >> You're probably better off going with the higher Shore. There are very few
                        > >> reasons to use a softer plate in letterpress printing.
                        > > . . . if the goal is deep impression. But if you have a thin or textured stock or are trying to do a kiss impression, then softer material can be useful.
                        > > The reason the manufacturer recommends 25 shore for letterpress use is that most of the printing industry still doesn't know about the heavy impression thing, which is just a niche within letterpress. And that's why the hardest materials, the steel or aluminum backed molding plates, are not even listed on their letterpress page.
                        > > --E Holub, SF
                        > >
                        >
                      • Eric
                        ... I can remember about 17 years ago when a local platemaker sold KM plates or MLD plates depending on press and stock. Platen press or textured stocked got
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 24, 2011
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                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:

                          > Don't know why but I have been told there are simply technical
                          > limitations regarding plate hardness, thickness, backing. Plates serve
                          > all kinds of needs, the suitable letterpress range is fairly narrow.
                          > Very hard plates such as the "molding" plates you reference aren't
                          > necessarily for letterpress. Some resilience is necessary.

                          I can remember about 17 years ago when a local platemaker sold KM plates or MLD plates depending on press and stock. Platen press or textured stocked got the softer KM, cylinder press or smooth stock got the harder MLD, for which A-V eventually substituted HX, about ten years ago. This was for a fine press and hobbyist clientele; the wedding studio of today was just coming into being, and heavy impression was not thought of as the only reason for letterpress. And indeed, increasing the impression from the KM then just gave you a boldface type rather than more indentation.

                          Three of the most active printers in my area use the HX molding plates for printing purposes, but although I use them too, they're best suited to heavy impression work. They seem to need more impression than does metal type. I cannot get a kiss impression with HX. But I am seeing journal work now printed on 80# Superfine eggshell that is obviously done with softer material because there is no distortion of the paper fibers, and front and back have the same quality of impression. Previous printers doing the same journal with harder plates were trying to make it "look like letterpress" and on backup they flattened out the first side impression, leaving front and back sides of differing qualities.

                          What we think of as "letterpress" and what the industry thinks of it may be quite different, despite whatever the occasional article may say about some printer here or there. The only presses being made for letterpress are label or other specialty presses. TOK doesn't ask if anybody is using 50 or 100 year old equiipment, or what they are doing with the plates. The people on this list really have no voice in the industry, no trade group to raise our concerns with manufacturers. All we do is find things that work more or less, whether it comes from a rubber-stamp supplier or not hardly matters.
                          --E Holub, SF
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