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Re: Die cutting paper coasters with the Heidelberg Windmill?

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  • gerritbaumann
    Hi Fabio, i just recently printed on super-duper-thick 900g/sm cotton stock which is 1,5mm in thickness (almost 1000 kg of it, too, 2 pallets in total) and
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 5, 2011
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      Hi Fabio,

      i just recently printed on super-duper-thick 900g/sm cotton stock which is 1,5mm in thickness (almost 1000 kg of it, too, 2 pallets in total) and that printed just fine -- i used almost no packing, the most difficult part is to get the sheets through the machine without any scratches -- i found that felt placed in different places (for example on the platen fender) works pretty well. You will also need rubber suckers to lift heavier stock off the feed table.

      As to die-cutting: On your press you cannot lock-out the rollers (that was only introduced in the late 60s or early 70s, I think), just take them out, otherwise they will get cut. I always work like this when die-cutting: start with very low impression, and increase until the first die-lines cut through the paper, than mark the places where your die doesn't properly cut the paper and stick pieces of scotch-tape to the back side of the die in those places. here is a video of my windmill die-cutting business cards in shape of hang-tags, notice the pling-sound, noted earlier. (although i must say, that all dies i used sound differently, depending on shape and size)

      cheers from hamburg, germany,

      Gerrit.



      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "i_goonies" <neroinferno@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Katey :)
      > thanks for the reply!
      >
      > I can't find any translation for the work twacks, sorry!..Do you mean "slam"?
      >
      > My 'packing thickness gage' label is in Deutch, but I can read 1mm..the point is all the coasters are 1.2 and 1.4mm in thickness, so how is possible people print something that exceeds the max thickness accepted by the press?
      >
      > Thanks for all the tips, the time and the explanations. I appreciate!
      >
      > About the video tutorial, if you can it's always a pleasure for the community.
      >
      > have a nice day,
      > Fabio
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Katey Lady <crazyprettybird@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Fabio-
      > >
      > > Its noisy because the coaster paper is much less flexible than regular stock, so it 'twacks' against the platen fender as it feeds. When the die cuts through the paper it makes a 'pop' noise, which is a little scary at first but normal. There's a little noise too when the paper drops onto the delivery table, so it's like "twack, pop, drop, thwack, pop, drop..."
      > >
      > > I meant to measure the thickness of the Rising 4Ply and the coaster board I use, but forgot. Have you noticed the 'packing thickness gage' on the delivery table side guide? If you can stick the coaster board or whatever in the slot, its fine to put through the press. Always start off with the impression turned almost to 0, to be safe. I've printed on some crazy thick things, including Stayflat chipboard envelopes, which have areas with 4 layers of chipboard. And I've printed on Rising 8Ply too. Two problems you run into with very thick, soft stock is: 1) The grippers make indentations in the paper, and 2) The feed table NEVER comes up fast enough and you have to stand there and kick it all afternoon.
      > >
      > > If no one else posts any MM measurements I'll dig out my micrometer tomorrow at work and measure some things. I also may be reprinting some coasters for Etsy soon, I'll bring in my camera and video it and put it on my blog.
      > >
      > > Be well,
      > >
      > > -Katey
      > > http://www.confectionpress.com
      > >
      >
    • gerritbaumann
      ah, here is the link to the aforementioned video on vimeo: http://vimeo.com/14498902 gerrit.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 5, 2011
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        ah, here is the link to the aforementioned video on vimeo:

        http://vimeo.com/14498902

        gerrit.

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "gerritbaumann" <polychroma@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Fabio,
        >
        > i just recently printed on super-duper-thick 900g/sm cotton stock which is 1,5mm in thickness (almost 1000 kg of it, too, 2 pallets in total) and that printed just fine -- i used almost no packing, the most difficult part is to get the sheets through the machine without any scratches -- i found that felt placed in different places (for example on the platen fender) works pretty well. You will also need rubber suckers to lift heavier stock off the feed table.
        >
        > As to die-cutting: On your press you cannot lock-out the rollers (that was only introduced in the late 60s or early 70s, I think), just take them out, otherwise they will get cut. I always work like this when die-cutting: start with very low impression, and increase until the first die-lines cut through the paper, than mark the places where your die doesn't properly cut the paper and stick pieces of scotch-tape to the back side of the die in those places. here is a video of my windmill die-cutting business cards in shape of hang-tags, notice the pling-sound, noted earlier. (although i must say, that all dies i used sound differently, depending on shape and size)
        >
        > cheers from hamburg, germany,
        >
        > Gerrit.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "i_goonies" <neroinferno@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Katey :)
        > > thanks for the reply!
        > >
        > > I can't find any translation for the work twacks, sorry!..Do you mean "slam"?
        > >
        > > My 'packing thickness gage' label is in Deutch, but I can read 1mm..the point is all the coasters are 1.2 and 1.4mm in thickness, so how is possible people print something that exceeds the max thickness accepted by the press?
        > >
        > > Thanks for all the tips, the time and the explanations. I appreciate!
        > >
        > > About the video tutorial, if you can it's always a pleasure for the community.
        > >
        > > have a nice day,
        > > Fabio
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Katey Lady <crazyprettybird@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi Fabio-
        > > >
        > > > Its noisy because the coaster paper is much less flexible than regular stock, so it 'twacks' against the platen fender as it feeds. When the die cuts through the paper it makes a 'pop' noise, which is a little scary at first but normal. There's a little noise too when the paper drops onto the delivery table, so it's like "twack, pop, drop, thwack, pop, drop..."
        > > >
        > > > I meant to measure the thickness of the Rising 4Ply and the coaster board I use, but forgot. Have you noticed the 'packing thickness gage' on the delivery table side guide? If you can stick the coaster board or whatever in the slot, its fine to put through the press. Always start off with the impression turned almost to 0, to be safe. I've printed on some crazy thick things, including Stayflat chipboard envelopes, which have areas with 4 layers of chipboard. And I've printed on Rising 8Ply too. Two problems you run into with very thick, soft stock is: 1) The grippers make indentations in the paper, and 2) The feed table NEVER comes up fast enough and you have to stand there and kick it all afternoon.
        > > >
        > > > If no one else posts any MM measurements I'll dig out my micrometer tomorrow at work and measure some things. I also may be reprinting some coasters for Etsy soon, I'll bring in my camera and video it and put it on my blog.
        > > >
        > > > Be well,
        > > >
        > > > -Katey
        > > > http://www.confectionpress.com
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • i_goonies
        Dear Gerrit, thanks for the reply and for the tips. I can t understand just 2 things: - the tape works like a little thickness, necessary for the die where the
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 6, 2011
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          Dear Gerrit,
          thanks for the reply and for the tips.

          I can't understand just 2 things:

          - the tape works like a little thickness, necessary for the die where the die-height isn't enough?

          - about felt, where do you exactly apply it? and what are the parts of the sheets that are scratched by the Windmill?

          Thanks, and Auguri! :)
          Fabio

          ps. very nice video, I like the Windmill when print/die-cut slow.



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "gerritbaumann" <polychroma@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Fabio,
          >
          > i just recently printed on super-duper-thick 900g/sm cotton stock which is 1,5mm in thickness (almost 1000 kg of it, too, 2 pallets in total) and that printed just fine -- i used almost no packing, the most difficult part is to get the sheets through the machine without any scratches -- i found that felt placed in different places (for example on the platen fender) works pretty well. You will also need rubber suckers to lift heavier stock off the feed table.
          >
          > As to die-cutting: On your press you cannot lock-out the rollers (that was only introduced in the late 60s or early 70s, I think), just take them out, otherwise they will get cut. I always work like this when die-cutting: start with very low impression, and increase until the first die-lines cut through the paper, than mark the places where your die doesn't properly cut the paper and stick pieces of scotch-tape to the back side of the die in those places. here is a video of my windmill die-cutting business cards in shape of hang-tags, notice the pling-sound, noted earlier. (although i must say, that all dies i used sound differently, depending on shape and size)
          >
          > cheers from hamburg, germany,
          >
          > Gerrit.
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "i_goonies" <neroinferno@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Katey :)
          > > thanks for the reply!
          > >
          > > I can't find any translation for the work twacks, sorry!..Do you mean "slam"?
          > >
          > > My 'packing thickness gage' label is in Deutch, but I can read 1mm..the point is all the coasters are 1.2 and 1.4mm in thickness, so how is possible people print something that exceeds the max thickness accepted by the press?
          > >
          > > Thanks for all the tips, the time and the explanations. I appreciate!
          > >
          > > About the video tutorial, if you can it's always a pleasure for the community.
          > >
          > > have a nice day,
          > > Fabio
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Katey Lady <crazyprettybird@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi Fabio-
          > > >
          > > > Its noisy because the coaster paper is much less flexible than regular stock, so it 'twacks' against the platen fender as it feeds. When the die cuts through the paper it makes a 'pop' noise, which is a little scary at first but normal. There's a little noise too when the paper drops onto the delivery table, so it's like "twack, pop, drop, thwack, pop, drop..."
          > > >
          > > > I meant to measure the thickness of the Rising 4Ply and the coaster board I use, but forgot. Have you noticed the 'packing thickness gage' on the delivery table side guide? If you can stick the coaster board or whatever in the slot, its fine to put through the press. Always start off with the impression turned almost to 0, to be safe. I've printed on some crazy thick things, including Stayflat chipboard envelopes, which have areas with 4 layers of chipboard. And I've printed on Rising 8Ply too. Two problems you run into with very thick, soft stock is: 1) The grippers make indentations in the paper, and 2) The feed table NEVER comes up fast enough and you have to stand there and kick it all afternoon.
          > > >
          > > > If no one else posts any MM measurements I'll dig out my micrometer tomorrow at work and measure some things. I also may be reprinting some coasters for Etsy soon, I'll bring in my camera and video it and put it on my blog.
          > > >
          > > > Be well,
          > > >
          > > > -Katey
          > > > http://www.confectionpress.com
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          Thumbs up indeed ;-) Nice work Gerrit! Cheers P
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 6, 2011
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            Thumbs up indeed ;-)
            Nice work Gerrit!

            Cheers

            P

            On 5 Jan 2011, at 4:48 PM, gerritbaumann wrote:

            > ah, here is the link to the aforementioned video on vimeo:
            >
            > http://vimeo.com/14498902
            >
            > gerrit.
          • gerritbaumann
            Hi Fabio! Of course the cutting die should be of the same height everywhere, but often times some areas like hole punches etc. need a little more pressure for
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 7, 2011
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              Hi Fabio!

              Of course the cutting die should be of the same height everywhere, but often times some areas like hole punches etc. need a little more pressure for a clean cut -- in those areas i just stick a little piece of tape directly on the backside of the die underneath those areas, that way you can keep the overall pressure as low as possible to save both the die and the diecutting jacket.

              As for the felt: I don't have a photo handy to post -- but when printing (or die-cutting) heavy and thick stock, the paper tends to get scratched on the backside by the corner of the platen. I use felt with double-sided tape on the upper left-side (opposite of the gripper) corner of the platen and platen fender to protect the sheet from scratching over the corner of the platen. I will post a photo, the next time I use this setup. Often times it is also useful to cover up some of the suckers with felt, to keep them from scratching the surface of the paper, when printing on very heavy stock. (It is also important to use good quality rubber suckers in a light color, as standard black rubber suckers can leave slight marks on the stock)

              As a I just printed literally a ton of 900g/sm / 1,5mm 100% cotton stock I am kind of immersed in the topic of printing heavy stock ;-)

              Hope this help -- by the way, where are you located, Fabio?

              Greetings from Hamburg, Germany,

              Gerrit.
            • i_goonies
              Hello Gerrit, thanks for the reply :) Okay thanks for the tape tip s explanation :) I can t understand how the sheets can be scratched from the platen corner
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 7, 2011
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                Hello Gerrit,
                thanks for the reply :)

                Okay thanks for the tape tip's explanation :)

                I can't understand how the sheets can be scratched from the platen corner and the platen fender. Perhaps the sheet when is sucked and loaded by the gripper is scratched from the corner? Sorry but I'm just a newbie and I haven't in mind exactly the sheet travel on the Windmill :)

                How do you cover the suckers with felt?!

                I'm located near Rome, Italy :)

                Thanks a lot Gerrit!
                Fabio



                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "gerritbaumann" <polychroma@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Fabio!
                >
                > Of course the cutting die should be of the same height everywhere, but often times some areas like hole punches etc. need a little more pressure for a clean cut -- in those areas i just stick a little piece of tape directly on the backside of the die underneath those areas, that way you can keep the overall pressure as low as possible to save both the die and the diecutting jacket.
                >
                > As for the felt: I don't have a photo handy to post -- but when printing (or die-cutting) heavy and thick stock, the paper tends to get scratched on the backside by the corner of the platen. I use felt with double-sided tape on the upper left-side (opposite of the gripper) corner of the platen and platen fender to protect the sheet from scratching over the corner of the platen. I will post a photo, the next time I use this setup. Often times it is also useful to cover up some of the suckers with felt, to keep them from scratching the surface of the paper, when printing on very heavy stock. (It is also important to use good quality rubber suckers in a light color, as standard black rubber suckers can leave slight marks on the stock)
                >
                > As a I just printed literally a ton of 900g/sm / 1,5mm 100% cotton stock I am kind of immersed in the topic of printing heavy stock ;-)
                >
                > Hope this help -- by the way, where are you located, Fabio?
                >
                > Greetings from Hamburg, Germany,
                >
                > Gerrit.
                >
              • Katey Lady
                Yet more (rather boring) Heidelberg videos. Printing coasters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjOEFEqtPlo Die cutting coasters:
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 8, 2011
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                  Yet more (rather boring) Heidelberg videos.

                  Printing coasters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjOEFEqtPlo

                  Die cutting coasters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHwSLF44VhA

                  Interestingly the coaster stock doesn't make the 'pop' noise like other sheets do when die cut.  I usually run "nickel" gages on the die cutting/scoring press, but when I cut coasters I have to switch to the "brass" gages because there is not enough space between the pin and the platen with the nickel ones. (Also, our "nickel" gages are made out of brass.... not sure whats up with that!)

                  Also, in regards to scuffing: something else that works well is book binders cloth tape to cover the space between the platen and the fender. I have not used felt before, but you can get sheets of felt with adhesive on the back for craft projects that would work well.

                  And finally, in regards to thickness of stock- the coaster stock I'm running in the video is .05 inches/1.27 mm thick. I have run thicker coaster stock which is .075 inches/ 1.9 mm thick.  I'm fairly confident that that is the thickest thing I have put through a press.

                  -Katey
                • i_goonies
                  Hello Katey! thanks for the videos and for the measures in mm. It s always a pleasure to see the Windmill and its gospel . Just another thing: why did you use
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 9, 2011
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                    Hello Katey!
                    thanks for the videos and for the measures in mm. It's always a pleasure to see the Windmill and its "gospel".

                    Just another thing: why did you use the plastic yellow foot-base and not the rubber suckers? Won't the rubber suckers better instead of the foot-base?

                    Thanks!
                    Fabio



                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Katey Lady <crazyprettybird@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Yet more (rather boring) Heidelberg videos.
                    >
                    > Printing coasters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjOEFEqtPlo
                    >
                    > Die cutting coasters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHwSLF44VhA
                    >
                    > Interestingly the coaster stock doesn't make the 'pop' noise like other sheets do when die cut. I usually run "nickel" gages on the die cutting/scoring press, but when I cut coasters I have to switch to the "brass" gages because there is not enough space between the pin and the platen with the nickel ones. (Also, our "nickel" gages are made out of brass.... not sure whats up with that!)
                    >
                    > Also, in regards to scuffing: something else that works well is book binders cloth tape to cover the space between the platen and the fender. I have not used felt before, but you can get sheets of felt with adhesive on the back for craft projects that would work well.
                    >
                    > And finally, in regards to thickness of stock- the coaster stock I'm running in the video is .05 inches/1.27 mm thick. I have run thicker coaster stock which is .075 inches/ 1.9 mm thick. I'm fairly confident that that is the thickest thing I have put through a press.
                    >
                    > -Katey
                    >
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