Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Making negatives

Expand Messages
  • David S. Rose
    This might be a very elementary question, but I don t know the answer and would appreciate some guidance: is there any really good, easy and high-quality way
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      This might be a very elementary question, but I don't know the answer
      and would appreciate some guidance: is there any really good, easy and
      high-quality way to handle the whole PPL process neatly in one's own
      shop by shooting one's own negatives to use in your photopolymer
      platemaker?

      Here's what I think I know:

      1) You must contact-expose a photopolymer plate from a negative.

      2) An inkjet printer can't produce negatives because the inks aren't
      effective UV blockers.

      3) A standard laser printer can't produce negatives because the toner
      density isn't enough to produce true blacks on transparencies.

      4) You can spray something called Print Buddy on a laser-printed
      transparency which seems to infill around the toner and thus produce
      almost-acceptable quality.

      5) The Xante direct-to-film system is essentially a souped up laser
      printer along with a "processor" which simply runs the transparency
      through the same kind of solution as Print Buddy, thereby automating #4.

      6) A 'traditional' image-setter is very big and uses a laser to expose
      traditional film, which then needs to be processed with photographic
      chemicals. The result is big, expensive and requires changing chemicals
      regularly.

      7) There is some sort of 'dry-film' process, invented by Kodak, which
      lets you generate film in an office environment and process it
      automatically by heat, but (a) the system is really expensive, and (b)
      it seems to have died out about three or four years ago.

      So, given all this, I think I'm a bit frustrated. If on the one hand I
      have a high-resolution printer that can generated 2440 dpi quality at
      whatever finished image size I need, and on the other I have
      photopolymer platemaker that can create the printing plate I need by
      contact exposure with a negative, logic tells me that there must be SOME
      way to get from a positive to a usable negative image WITHOUT requiring
      a service bureau, a stat camera, chemicals, a spray can or $20K. What am
      I missing here?

      -David the Perplexed
    • Gerald Lange
      Hi David Sounds about right. I was informed, yesterday, about a new technique that Harry Reese has been using. This uses some kind of laser exposure paper that
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi David

        Sounds about right. I was informed, yesterday, about a new technique
        that Harry Reese has been using. This uses some kind of laser exposure
        paper that is being distributed by Legion, and an additional in-house
        processing step.

        Perhaps, if Harry reads this, he might elaborate a bit?

        Gerald
      • John Cornelisse
        ... I did some proofs with negatives on transparant film on a 940C HP-deskjet-printer, They were dense enough to yield a nice polymere, the printer had to be
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          At 10:57 07-02-2003 -0500, you wrote:
          >This might be a very elementary question, but I don't know the answer
          >and would appreciate some guidance: is there any really good, easy and
          >high-quality way to handle the whole PPL process neatly in one's own
          >shop by shooting one's own negatives to use in your photopolymer
          >platemaker?
          >
          >Here's what I think I know:
          >
          >1) You must contact-expose a photopolymer plate from a negative.
          >
          >2) An inkjet printer can't produce negatives because the inks aren't
          >effective UV blockers.

          I did some proofs with negatives on transparant film on a 940C
          HP-deskjet-printer,
          They were dense enough to yield a nice polymere, the printer had to be set
          on its
          maximum density.


          John Cornelisse

          Enkidu-Press, letterpress & type-founding, Apa 754
          Vaartstraat 23, 4553 AN Philippine, zeeuws vlaanderen
          The Netherlands, +31 (0) 115 491184
          email: enkidu@...

          'You are so handsome, Enkidu, you are just like a god !
          Why with the beast do you wander in the wild ?
          Come I will take you to Uruk-the-Sheepfold,
          to the sacred temple, home of Anu and Isthar,

          Where Gilgamesh is perfect in strength,
          like a wild bull lording it over the menfolk.
          So she spoke to him and her word found favour,
          he knew by instinct, he should seek a friend.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joel Benson
          Dear Perplexed, This is an excellent summary of all the previous posts around homemade negs, you don t seem perplexed at all. It should be turned into a page
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Perplexed,

            This is an excellent summary of all the previous posts around homemade negs, you don't seem perplexed at all. It should be turned into a page in the FAQ for this list, IMHO!

            I wish to point out that stat cameras are virtually worthless in the print equipment market (or so I have been told), so if cost is the only consideration, this might be an option. They ought to be available from bigger shops that have gone digital, if they haven't gotten rid of them already.

            And it sounds like some people have gotten some decent results from laser printer-produced negs, though all standards are highly subjective and everyone has to decide for themselves.

            I haven't experimented with homemade negs myself, but I CAN tell you that I have seen decent plates made with very short exposure times (I assume having the correct light source with the correct UV frequency is key here), and careful washout. With the short exposure time you have lots more latitude in the density of your negative.

            I'm sorry I haven't said anything that would take away the necessity of experimentation. Good luck!

            Joel

            Joel Benson
            Dependable Letterpress
            San Francisco
          • Bryan Hutcheson
            Have your film output at a service bureau or talk to an offset printer. I just ran a piece of film with a new vendor yesterday and it was a ³dry² process. It
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Have your film output at a service bureau or talk to an offset printer.

              I just ran a piece of film with a new vendor yesterday and it was a ³dry²
              process. It was terribly inconsistent. It¹s always best to go with standard
              film developed with chemicals. s.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gerald Lange <bieler@worldnet.att.net>
              David A further note on this. I have talked extensively with Xante and have processed plates with negs that came off the Platemaker printer they are selling.
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                David

                A further note on this. I have talked extensively with Xante and have
                processed plates with negs that came off the Platemaker printer they
                are selling. The blacks look quite gray and the transparency is almost
                a diluted milk color, but they do perform well. I was informed that
                when their transparency is any clearer, they've run into problems. The
                specs they provided do just meet minimum standards.

                Problem with a 2400 dpi laser engine, as their techs have informed me,
                is that it is pushing the technology to its extreme, and to some
                extent, beyond what it is really capable of.

                The problem I've found with the Xante is toner-scatter. Since I do a
                lot of repro quality work, this has not been acceptable. I haven't
                detected the same problem with the negs as I suspect the scatter
                cannot be detected during exposure.

                Gerald
                >
                > 3) A standard laser printer can't produce negatives because the toner
                > density isn't enough to produce true blacks on transparencies.
                >
                >
                > 5) The Xante direct-to-film system is essentially a souped up laser
                > printer along with a "processor" which simply runs the transparency
                > through the same kind of solution as Print Buddy, thereby automating #4.
                >
              • Ed Inman
                ... density isn t enough to produce true blacks on transparencies.
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 7, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  David wrote:
                  >>>>>3) A standard laser printer can't produce negatives because the toner
                  density isn't enough to produce true blacks on transparencies.<<<<<<

                  I don't know if this is necessarily true. Although I still use traditional
                  Kodalith type film and a process camera to shoot line art, I have had good
                  luck burning halftone photopolymer plates directly from negatives produced
                  by my laser printer. I just use the normal 3M type transparency film
                  available at most office supply stores.

                  However, if the density is what you are worried about, there is still a way
                  to make a good, traditional film negative (without a camera) in your
                  bathroom or closet. All you need is a contact printing frame (or weighted
                  glass on foam rubber--same as you use to burn the plates), a light source,
                  some developing trays, a box of lith film, some A&B type lith developer,
                  stop bath, and fixer. The entire setup should cost less than $100.

                  First print your artwork as a positive onto this same 3M type film (or any
                  light weight, translucent paper) in a laser printer. (If you don't have a
                  laser printer, you can use a normal Xerox copier although the image may not
                  be as good.).

                  Then contact print this positive onto traditional lith film and develop
                  normally.

                  For the sharpest possible image, print your original mirror image, and print
                  face down with the film emulsion facing up.

                  The polymer plate should, of course, be burned as a mirror image with the
                  film emulsion facing down against the plate.

                  I made dozens of plates this way with good success, but then I got an old
                  Argyle process camera for free that was being thrown out, and it works as
                  good as new. That is always an option too these days if you have the room.
                  Cameras, like linotypes, can be had for almost nothing if you can find
                  somewhere to put them.

                  Ed

                  Ed
                • joelsherman5000
                  Hello, This is Joel Sherman, the print lab tech at UCSB, working with Harry Reese. Some of you may be interested in the process we ve been using here for
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello,

                    This is Joel Sherman, the print lab tech at UCSB, working with Harry
                    Reese. Some of you may be interested in the process we've been using
                    here for making our own negatives. Go to:

                    http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/staff/sherman/printlab/pages/main.html

                    then click on:

                    How to make negatives for photopolymer plates

                    I've been refining this process from a data sheet I got from
                    Anderson&Vreeland.
                    Daylight contact film is about $1.50 per 10x12 sheet and comes in
                    packs of 100. Transparency overlay is about $.40 per sheet. AB lith
                    developer is about $20.00 for a one gallon set from freestylephoto and
                    will develop many sheets.

                    Joel
                  • Gerald Lange
                    Joel Thanks for posting this. Harry had sent me something previously, but mentioned you would be finishing up a more precise description. Bit surprised about
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 8, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Joel

                      Thanks for posting this. Harry had sent me something previously, but
                      mentioned you would be finishing up a more precise description. Bit
                      surprised about A&V's contribution. Does this work well for text? or
                      are you mainly concentrating on images?

                      Is the Laser Buddy a crucial step? or would a secondary chemical bath
                      help improve the opacity? I remember that Xante recommended a second
                      bath to improve the opacity with their bath unit.

                      Gerald


                      >
                      > This is Joel Sherman, the print lab tech at UCSB, working with Harry
                      > Reese. Some of you may be interested in the process we've been using
                      > here for making our own negatives. Go to:
                      >
                      > http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/staff/sherman/printlab/pages/main.html
                      >
                      > then click on:
                      >
                      > How to make negatives for photopolymer plates
                      >
                      > I've been refining this process from a data sheet I got from
                      > Anderson&Vreeland.
                      > Daylight contact film is about $1.50 per 10x12 sheet and comes in
                      > packs of 100. Transparency overlay is about $.40 per sheet. AB lith
                      > developer is about $20.00 for a one gallon set from freestylephoto and
                      > will develop many sheets.
                      >
                      > Joel
                    • Joel D. Sherman
                      Hi Gerald, This process seems to work pretty well for text. I can t say they match the quality of negatives made on an imagesetter. The process is still being
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 11, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Gerald,

                        This process seems to work pretty well for text. I can't say they match the
                        quality of negatives made on an imagesetter. The process is still being
                        developed, so more tests should be made.

                        A rather heavy coat of Laser Buddy increases the density of the toner
                        enough to substantially reduce black speckling in clear parts of the
                        negative caused by light leaking through the toner. The difference is
                        noticeable if you have solid areas in your image. I think that minimizing
                        the exposure time also helps reduce the amount of light that leaks through
                        the toner.

                        Joel


                        --On Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:02 AM +0000 Gerald Lange
                        <bieler@...> wrote:

                        > Joel
                        >
                        > Thanks for posting this. Harry had sent me something previously, but
                        > mentioned you would be finishing up a more precise description. Bit
                        > surprised about A&V's contribution. Does this work well for text? or
                        > are you mainly concentrating on images?
                        >
                        > Is the Laser Buddy a crucial step? or would a secondary chemical bath
                        > help improve the opacity? I remember that Xante recommended a second
                        > bath to improve the opacity with their bath unit.
                        >
                        > Gerald
                        >
                        >
                        >>
                        >> This is Joel Sherman, the print lab tech at UCSB, working with Harry
                        >> Reese. Some of you may be interested in the process we've been using
                        >> here for making our own negatives. Go to:
                        >>
                        >> http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/staff/sherman/printlab/pages/main.html
                        >>
                        >> then click on:
                        >>
                        >> How to make negatives for photopolymer plates
                        >>
                        >> I've been refining this process from a data sheet I got from
                        >> Anderson&Vreeland.
                        >> Daylight contact film is about $1.50 per 10x12 sheet and comes in
                        >> packs of 100. Transparency overlay is about $.40 per sheet. AB lith
                        >> developer is about $20.00 for a one gallon set from freestylephoto and
                        >> will develop many sheets.
                        >>
                        >> Joel
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > ADVERTISEMENT
                        >
                        > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                        > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        > ? Encountering problems? contact:
                        > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > ? To unsubscribe:
                        > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      • Joel D. Sherman
                        Hello Gerald, My name is Joel Sherman, and I work at UCSB. You may remember the information I posted a while back about homemade negatives. I am nearing
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 31, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Gerald,

                          My name is Joel Sherman, and I work at UCSB. You may remember the
                          information I posted a while back about homemade negatives.

                          I am nearing completion of rebuilding an sp15 which was donated to us
                          recently. I plan to follow the instructions you posted for adjusting the
                          cylinder carriage and am looking for 36pt steel rule and .001 tissue paper.
                          I work with Harry Reese, who told me you are selling some things, and may
                          have these items. I checked your ebay listings and didn't see anything.

                          If you have either of these, please let me know what you want to sell them
                          for.

                          Thanks,

                          Joel Sherman






                          --On Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:02 AM +0000 Gerald Lange
                          <bieler@...> wrote:

                          > Joel
                          >
                          > Thanks for posting this. Harry had sent me something previously, but
                          > mentioned you would be finishing up a more precise description. Bit
                          > surprised about A&V's contribution. Does this work well for text? or
                          > are you mainly concentrating on images?
                          >
                          > Is the Laser Buddy a crucial step? or would a secondary chemical bath
                          > help improve the opacity? I remember that Xante recommended a second
                          > bath to improve the opacity with their bath unit.
                          >
                          > Gerald
                          >
                          >
                          >>
                          >> This is Joel Sherman, the print lab tech at UCSB, working with Harry
                          >> Reese. Some of you may be interested in the process we've been using
                          >> here for making our own negatives. Go to:
                          >>
                          >> http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/staff/sherman/printlab/pages/main.html
                          >>
                          >> then click on:
                          >>
                          >> How to make negatives for photopolymer plates
                          >>
                          >> I've been refining this process from a data sheet I got from
                          >> Anderson&Vreeland.
                          >> Daylight contact film is about $1.50 per 10x12 sheet and comes in
                          >> packs of 100. Transparency overlay is about $.40 per sheet. AB lith
                          >> developer is about $20.00 for a one gallon set from freestylephoto and
                          >> will develop many sheets.
                          >>
                          >> Joel
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > ADVERTISEMENT
                          > [Image: 300x250_111_1.gif] [Image: "width=1 height=1 src="]
                          > ? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                          > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > ? Encountering problems? contact:
                          > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > ? To unsubscribe:
                          > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                          Joel Sherman
                          (805)893-3367
                        • Gerald Lange
                          Joel I was just checking on full face steel rule and it isn t made wider than 4 pts. You can get brass barweld (full face) rule from Caslon Limited but it will
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 31, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Joel

                            I was just checking on full face steel rule and it isn't made wider than
                            4 pts. You can get brass barweld (full face) rule from Caslon Limited
                            but it will literally cost you an arm and a leg (I've been toying with
                            the idea of an order for some 18-pt). You might try to find some new
                            36pt full face lead rule and just cut that to fit the press (about 17
                            inches on a SP-15).

                            Tissue can be picked up most any place. New York Central Supply sells a
                            pretty good tissue. But these days I use .001 acetate for this. You can
                            usually get this at a graphic art supply store, if not, .001 tracing
                            paper will do.

                            I have some ink test strip steel bars at .918 but they are 3/4 of an
                            inch wide and 19-3/4 inches long. We used these on a SP-20 for testing
                            and as roller supports. You'd have to chop off some three inches and
                            this is some very hard steel.

                            Gerald

                            Joel D. Sherman wrote:

                            >Hello Gerald,
                            >
                            >My name is Joel Sherman, and I work at UCSB. You may remember the
                            >information I posted a while back about homemade negatives.
                            >
                            >I am nearing completion of rebuilding an sp15 which was donated to us
                            >recently. I plan to follow the instructions you posted for adjusting the
                            >cylinder carriage and am looking for 36pt steel rule and .001 tissue paper.
                            >I work with Harry Reese, who told me you are selling some things, and may
                            >have these items. I checked your ebay listings and didn't see anything.
                            >
                            >If you have either of these, please let me know what you want to sell them
                            >for.
                            >
                            >Thanks,
                            >
                            >Joel Sherman
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >--On Sunday, March 09, 2003 7:02 AM +0000 Gerald Lange
                            ><bieler@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >>Joel
                            >>
                            >>Thanks for posting this. Harry had sent me something previously, but
                            >>mentioned you would be finishing up a more precise description. Bit
                            >>surprised about A&V's contribution. Does this work well for text? or
                            >>are you mainly concentrating on images?
                            >>
                            >>Is the Laser Buddy a crucial step? or would a secondary chemical bath
                            >>help improve the opacity? I remember that Xante recommended a second
                            >>bath to improve the opacity with their bath unit.
                            >>
                            >>Gerald
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>>This is Joel Sherman, the print lab tech at UCSB, working with Harry
                            >>>Reese. Some of you may be interested in the process we've been using
                            >>>here for making our own negatives. Go to:
                            >>>
                            >>>http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/staff/sherman/printlab/pages/main.html
                            >>>
                            >>>then click on:
                            >>>
                            >>>How to make negatives for photopolymer plates
                            >>>
                            >>> I've been refining this process from a data sheet I got from
                            >>>Anderson&Vreeland.
                            >>> Daylight contact film is about $1.50 per 10x12 sheet and comes in
                            >>>packs of 100. Transparency overlay is about $.40 per sheet. AB lith
                            >>>developer is about $20.00 for a one gallon set from freestylephoto and
                            >>>will develop many sheets.
                            >>>
                            >>>Joel
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            >>ADVERTISEMENT
                            >> [Image: 300x250_111_1.gif] [Image: "width=1 height=1 src="]
                            >>? To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                            >>PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            >>? Encountering problems? contact:
                            >>PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            >>? To unsubscribe:
                            >>PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>
                            >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Joel Sherman
                            >(805)893-3367
                            >
                            >
                            >------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
                            >Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
                            >http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/mFXtlB/TM
                            >--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.