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Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Photopolymer separating from polyester backer

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  • Bill Jones
    Yes I understand and agree completely. I have a fair amount of success and consistency but I do not argue that it is anywhere near silver film when holding
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 1, 2010
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      Yes I understand and agree completely. I have a fair amount of success and consistency but I do not argue that it is anywhere near silver film when holding fine detail--6 point Bodoni and that type of thing.

      My point was more that there is a point where my lines fall off the plate during washout or on the press. And I have relearned the lesson from the old days that "hairlines" print with a different thickness depending on the output device. My original Laserwriter at 300dpi had much thicker hairlines than the Linotron which you could barely see. I imagine Boxcar and others with real production experience do preflite to pick up lines that are too fine for the plates and correct those problems. I think I remember .2 point stroke being the answer.

      As you can probably tell, I am trying to figure out when I need to stroke fine lines and how much to stroke them. My current thinking is around 4 pixels wide at 600 dpi.

      Bill


      On Aug 1, 2010, at 11:45 PM, Harold Kyle wrote:

       

      Bill:


      Ink jet negatives are bound to cause problems. Silver emulsion film is the only way to hold fine detail from what I've seen. The "real platemaker" isn't as important as having "real film." Film is more expensive but the wasted plates cost money, too.

      Harold

      On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Bill Jones <billjones@mac. com> wrote:
       

      I am in nearly the same situation as you--10 minute exposure times using an old screen printing exposure unit. I wash out by hand and am new to the whole process.


      Additionally I make my negatives using an inkjet printer (Epson 2880 and polyester film). My major problems come from lines that are too thin on the film. 

      I normally rasterize into photoshop at 600 lpi and at times the lines end up being "hairlines" which by definition are 1 pixel wide. If I am using the 1400 dpi print setting these lines are just too thing to stay on the plate.

      If I am imaging an Illustrator file, I need to look closely at the file to see if there are hairlines. If there are (script types and bodoni like serifs) I stroke those objects with a 1/4 point line to beef them up a bit and then run the plate.

      If the plate survives washout, I have also found that the post processing hardening is also very important. On a good strong sunshine day, putting the washed-out plate in the sun for a few minutes seems to be more effective than running it back through the platemaker to harden it.

      Others with "real platemakers" can probably achieve better results, but beefing up any fine line is the answer in my current situation. I don't have a problem with fine "white" lines in solid printing areas, just fine "black" lines that need to stand on their own.

      Anything that really needs 1/4 point lines and very fine detail should probably be sent out and would cost the long buck.

      Bill Jones


      On Aug 1, 2010, at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent wrote:

       

      More info:

      Fresh KF95 plates.

      I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer scale). So it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do some basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside from this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted to spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time does not cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new bulbs and ballasts is not insignificant.

      My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see if that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I may have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it is a crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin script text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the plate.

      My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root cause of photopolymer/ polyester separation was rather than have folks just tell me to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.

      Glenwood Morris

      Oslo Press Inc.

      --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that have separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester backer.
      >
      > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
      >
      > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there was a "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the best.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Glenwood Morris
      >
      > Oslo Press Inc.
      >






      --
      ---
      Boxcar Press
      501 W. Fayette St. #222
      Syracuse, NY  13204
      www.boxcarpress. com


    • Ed Inman
      Even before I had a process camera (which are practically free now) I used to contact print xerox copies under glass from thin, translucent paper onto Kodalith
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 1, 2010
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        Even before I had a process camera (which are practically free now) I used to contact print xerox copies under glass from thin, translucent paper onto Kodalith type ortho lith film & develop it in trays.
        As pathetically low-tech as that process is, it will give you 100 times better negatives than you will ever get directly from an ink jet printer.
        I'm often surprised at how few people who embrace letterpress today are willing to explore even the most fundamental photochemistry processes.
        "I don't have room" is the most common excuse. Never mind that any 12-year-old back in the 70s knew how to set up and take down a "darkroom" in their bathroom in about 30 minutes time.
        just my little rant....
        Ed

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Harold Kyle
        Sent: Aug 1, 2010 11:45 PM
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Photopolymer separating from polyester backer



        Bill:

        Ink jet negatives are bound to cause problems. Silver emulsion film is the only way to hold fine detail from what I've seen. The "real platemaker" isn't as important as having "real film." Film is more expensive but the wasted plates cost money, too.

        Harold

        On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Bill Jones <billjones@...> wrote:
         

        I am in nearly the same situation as you--10 minute exposure times using an old screen printing exposure unit. I wash out by hand and am new to the whole process.


        Additionally I make my negatives using an inkjet printer (Epson 2880 and polyester film). My major problems come from lines that are too thin on the film. 

        I normally rasterize into photoshop at 600 lpi and at times the lines end up being "hairlines" which by definition are 1 pixel wide. If I am using the 1400 dpi print setting these lines are just too thing to stay on the plate.

        If I am imaging an Illustrator file, I need to look closely at the file to see if there are hairlines. If there are (script types and bodoni like serifs) I stroke those objects with a 1/4 point line to beef them up a bit and then run the plate.

        If the plate survives washout, I have also found that the post processing hardening is also very important. On a good strong sunshine day, putting the washed-out plate in the sun for a few minutes seems to be more effective than running it back through the platemaker to harden it.

        Others with "real platemakers" can probably achieve better results, but beefing up any fine line is the answer in my current situation. I don't have a problem with fine "white" lines in solid printing areas, just fine "black" lines that need to stand on their own.

        Anything that really needs 1/4 point lines and very fine detail should probably be sent out and would cost the long buck.

        Bill Jones


        On Aug 1, 2010, at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent wrote:

         

        More info:

        Fresh KF95 plates.

        I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer scale). So it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do some basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside from this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted to spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time does not cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new bulbs and ballasts is not insignificant.

        My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see if that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I may have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it is a crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin script text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the plate.

        My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root cause of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just tell me to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.

        Glenwood Morris

        Oslo Press Inc.

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@...> wrote:
        >
        > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that have separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester backer.
        >
        > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
        >
        > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there was a "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the best.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Glenwood Morris
        >
        > Oslo Press Inc.
        >





        --
        ---
        Boxcar Press
        501 W. Fayette St. #222
        Syracuse, NY  13204
        www.boxcarpress.com


      • idgradstudent
        Harold, I m using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to the newer ones with digital controls). It uses a bank of lights. The
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 1, 2010
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          Harold,

          I'm using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to the newer ones with digital controls).

          It uses a bank of lights.

          The separation is happening at some point between post-washout rinsing and the end of post-exposure. It is not 100% consistent but I will be examining more closely between drying and post-exposure in the future.

          I am using silver emulsion film, yes.

          Glenwood Morris

          Oslo Press Inc.

          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
          >
          > 5 minutes shouldn't be too long for the washout. You're fine there.
          >
          > What type of platemaker do you use? Point light source or a bank of lights?
          >
          > The photopolymer will separate for lots of reasons. It sounds like this is
          > happening during processing? During washout or during drying?
          >
          > Finally, are you using silver emulsion film? It sounds like you are. Just
          > checking.
          >
          > Would love to help but need more info.
          >
          > Harold
          >
          > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...>wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > More info:
          > >
          > > Fresh KF95 plates.
          > >
          > > I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that
          > > require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer scale). So
          > > it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do some
          > > basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside from
          > > this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted to
          > > spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time does not
          > > cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new bulbs
          > > and ballasts is not insignificant.
          > >
          > > My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see if
          > > that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure
          > > times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I may
          > > have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it is a
          > > crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin script
          > > text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the
          > > plate.
          > >
          > > My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root cause
          > > of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just tell me
          > > to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.
          > >
          > >
          > > Glenwood Morris
          > >
          > > Oslo Press Inc.
          > >
          > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that have
          > > separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester backer.
          > > >
          > > > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions
          > > about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
          > > >
          > > > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having
          > > problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there was a
          > > "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the best.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks,
          > > >
          > > > Glenwood Morris
          > > >
          > > > Oslo Press Inc.
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > --
          > ---
          > Boxcar Press
          > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
          > Syracuse, NY 13204
          > www.boxcarpress.com
          >
        • Harold Kyle
          You re using all the right equipment and materials. The details on your plate are likely detaching because they haven t received enough light during the main
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 1, 2010
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            You're using all the right equipment and materials. The details on your plate are likely detaching because they haven't received enough light during the main exposure. The photopolymer material hasn't hardened all the way down to the base. It separates during drying while it contracts--it has nothing to hold on with.

            The bulbs most likely need replacing on your machine as you've surmised. In the meantime you may have to keep increasing your main exposure to compensate for their lack of output. Have you done a Stouffer test at the edge of your bulbs recently? Fluorescent tubes put out less and less light as they age. But you already knew this. Is this what you're asking?

            Harold

            On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:47 AM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...> wrote:
             

            Harold,

            I'm using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to the newer ones with digital controls).

            It uses a bank of lights.

            The separation is happening at some point between post-washout rinsing and the end of post-exposure. It is not 100% consistent but I will be examining more closely between drying and post-exposure in the future.

            I am using silver emulsion film, yes.



            Glenwood Morris

            Oslo Press Inc.

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
            >
            > 5 minutes shouldn't be too long for the washout. You're fine there.
            >
            > What type of platemaker do you use? Point light source or a bank of lights?
            >
            > The photopolymer will separate for lots of reasons. It sounds like this is
            > happening during processing? During washout or during drying?
            >
            > Finally, are you using silver emulsion film? It sounds like you are. Just
            > checking.
            >
            > Would love to help but need more info.
            >
            > Harold
            >
            > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...>wrote:

            >
            > >
            > >
            > > More info:
            > >
            > > Fresh KF95 plates.
            > >
            > > I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that
            > > require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer scale). So
            > > it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do some
            > > basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside from
            > > this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted to
            > > spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time does not
            > > cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new bulbs
            > > and ballasts is not insignificant.
            > >
            > > My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see if
            > > that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure
            > > times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I may
            > > have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it is a
            > > crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin script
            > > text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the
            > > plate.
            > >
            > > My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root cause
            > > of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just tell me
            > > to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.
            > >
            > >
            > > Glenwood Morris
            > >
            > > Oslo Press Inc.
            > >
            > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,

            > > "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that have
            > > separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester backer.
            > > >
            > > > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions
            > > about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having
            > > problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there was a
            > > "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the best.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks,
            > > >
            > > > Glenwood Morris
            > > >
            > > > Oslo Press Inc.
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > ---
            > Boxcar Press
            > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
            > Syracuse, NY 13204
            > www.boxcarpress.com
            >




            --
            ---
            Boxcar Press
            501 W. Fayette St. #222
            Syracuse, NY  13204
            www.boxcarpress.com
          • bielerpr
            Glenwood Sounding more like you have an exposure problem than photopolymer separating from the backing? Might be best to be very specific as to the problem. Go
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 1, 2010
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              Glenwood

              Sounding more like you have an exposure problem than photopolymer separating from the backing? Might be best to be very specific as to the problem.

              Go here to get lamps:

              http://www.atlantalightbulbs.com/

              Yeah, maintenance.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
              >
              > You're using all the right equipment and materials. The details on your
              > plate are likely detaching because they haven't received enough light during
              > the main exposure. The photopolymer material hasn't hardened all the way
              > down to the base. It separates during drying while it contracts--it has
              > nothing to hold on with.
              >
              > The bulbs most likely need replacing on your machine as you've surmised. In
              > the meantime you may have to keep increasing your main exposure to
              > compensate for their lack of output. Have you done a Stouffer test at the
              > edge of your bulbs recently? Fluorescent tubes put out less and less light
              > as they age. But you already knew this. Is this what you're asking?
              >
              > Harold
              >
              > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:47 AM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...>wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Harold,
              > >
              > > I'm using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to
              > > the newer ones with digital controls).
              > >
              > > It uses a bank of lights.
              > >
              > > The separation is happening at some point between post-washout rinsing and
              > > the end of post-exposure. It is not 100% consistent but I will be examining
              > > more closely between drying and post-exposure in the future.
              > >
              > > I am using silver emulsion film, yes.
              > >
              > >
              > > Glenwood Morris
              > >
              > > Oslo Press Inc.
              > >
              > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > Harold Kyle <harold@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > 5 minutes shouldn't be too long for the washout. You're fine there.
              > > >
              > > > What type of platemaker do you use? Point light source or a bank of
              > > lights?
              > > >
              > > > The photopolymer will separate for lots of reasons. It sounds like this
              > > is
              > > > happening during processing? During washout or during drying?
              > > >
              > > > Finally, are you using silver emulsion film? It sounds like you are. Just
              > > > checking.
              > > >
              > > > Would love to help but need more info.
              > > >
              > > > Harold
              > > >
              > > > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@
              > > ...>wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > More info:
              > > > >
              > > > > Fresh KF95 plates.
              > > > >
              > > > > I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that
              > > > > require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer
              > > scale). So
              > > > > it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do
              > > some
              > > > > basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside
              > > from
              > > > > this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted
              > > to
              > > > > spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time
              > > does not
              > > > > cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new
              > > bulbs
              > > > > and ballasts is not insignificant.
              > > > >
              > > > > My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see
              > > if
              > > > > that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure
              > > > > times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I
              > > may
              > > > > have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it
              > > is a
              > > > > crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin
              > > script
              > > > > text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the
              > > > > plate.
              > > > >
              > > > > My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root
              > > cause
              > > > > of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just
              > > tell me
              > > > > to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Glenwood Morris
              > > > >
              > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com><PPLetterpress%
              > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
              > >
              > > > > "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that
              > > have
              > > > > separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester
              > > backer.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions
              > > > > about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having
              > > > > problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there
              > > was a
              > > > > "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the
              > > best.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Thanks,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Glenwood Morris
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --
              > > > ---
              > > > Boxcar Press
              > > > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
              > > > Syracuse, NY 13204
              > > > www.boxcarpress.com
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > ---
              > Boxcar Press
              > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
              > Syracuse, NY 13204
              > www.boxcarpress.com
              >
            • Peter Fraterdeus
              Have you tried a 20-second back exposure before your vacuum main exposure? Particularly with hairline problems, and mysteriously moving commas, etc, it s
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 2, 2010
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                Have you tried a 20-second back exposure before your vacuum main exposure?

                Particularly with hairline problems, and mysteriously moving commas, etc, it's pretty much 'de rigure' to prime the base a bit with a back exposure.

                At least in my experience ;-)

                Cheers

                PF

                ...
                Peter Fraterdeus
                Exquisite letterpress takes time™
                http://slowprint.com/

                IdeasWords : Idea Swords
                Communication Strategy
                Semiotx.com @ideaswords
              • Eric
                ... Too long in the bath. The material is absorbing moisture at the surface and expanding. It can t lengthen but instead assumes a wave form.
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 2, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, mike day <vangogh1888@...> wrote:
                  > I have seen lines of type go squiggly
                  > in an up and down line. Whether it is too long a washout and old plates, I
                  > can't be sure.

                  Too long in the bath. The material is absorbing moisture at the surface and expanding. It can't lengthen but instead assumes a wave form.
                • idgradstudent
                  Thanks to Harold, Gerald, Peter, et al for the help and suggestions. I will have to do some testing at the edge of my exposure unit with my Stouffer scale and
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 2, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thanks to Harold, Gerald, Peter, et al for the help and suggestions.

                    I will have to do some testing at the edge of my exposure unit with my Stouffer scale and see if I am getting different results there, which seems likely.

                    I have had intermittent problems with overexposure in certain areas as well, which has kept me from just increasing my exposure time. I am guessing this is the "hot spots" that some bulbs can develop over time?

                    Is there any detrimental effect to new bulbs if you replace just the bulbs rather than swapping the bulbs and the ballasts?

                    I will try exposing the back of the plate for 20 seconds to see if it might be a temporary workaround.

                    Glenwood Morris

                    Oslo Press Inc.

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You're using all the right equipment and materials. The details on your
                    > plate are likely detaching because they haven't received enough light during
                    > the main exposure. The photopolymer material hasn't hardened all the way
                    > down to the base. It separates during drying while it contracts--it has
                    > nothing to hold on with.
                    >
                    > The bulbs most likely need replacing on your machine as you've surmised. In
                    > the meantime you may have to keep increasing your main exposure to
                    > compensate for their lack of output. Have you done a Stouffer test at the
                    > edge of your bulbs recently? Fluorescent tubes put out less and less light
                    > as they age. But you already knew this. Is this what you're asking?
                    >
                    > Harold
                    >
                    > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:47 AM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...>wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Harold,
                    > >
                    > > I'm using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to
                    > > the newer ones with digital controls).
                    > >
                    > > It uses a bank of lights.
                    > >
                    > > The separation is happening at some point between post-washout rinsing and
                    > > the end of post-exposure. It is not 100% consistent but I will be examining
                    > > more closely between drying and post-exposure in the future.
                    > >
                    > > I am using silver emulsion film, yes.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Glenwood Morris
                    > >
                    > > Oslo Press Inc.
                    > >
                    > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > Harold Kyle <harold@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > 5 minutes shouldn't be too long for the washout. You're fine there.
                    > > >
                    > > > What type of platemaker do you use? Point light source or a bank of
                    > > lights?
                    > > >
                    > > > The photopolymer will separate for lots of reasons. It sounds like this
                    > > is
                    > > > happening during processing? During washout or during drying?
                    > > >
                    > > > Finally, are you using silver emulsion film? It sounds like you are. Just
                    > > > checking.
                    > > >
                    > > > Would love to help but need more info.
                    > > >
                    > > > Harold
                    > > >
                    > > > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@
                    > > ...>wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > More info:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Fresh KF95 plates.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that
                    > > > > require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer
                    > > scale). So
                    > > > > it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do
                    > > some
                    > > > > basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside
                    > > from
                    > > > > this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted
                    > > to
                    > > > > spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time
                    > > does not
                    > > > > cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new
                    > > bulbs
                    > > > > and ballasts is not insignificant.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see
                    > > if
                    > > > > that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure
                    > > > > times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I
                    > > may
                    > > > > have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it
                    > > is a
                    > > > > crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin
                    > > script
                    > > > > text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the
                    > > > > plate.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root
                    > > cause
                    > > > > of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just
                    > > tell me
                    > > > > to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Glenwood Morris
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com><PPLetterpress%
                    > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > >
                    > > > > "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that
                    > > have
                    > > > > separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester
                    > > backer.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions
                    > > > > about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having
                    > > > > problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there
                    > > was a
                    > > > > "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the
                    > > best.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Thanks,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Glenwood Morris
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --
                    > > > ---
                    > > > Boxcar Press
                    > > > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                    > > > Syracuse, NY 13204
                    > > > www.boxcarpress.com
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > ---
                    > Boxcar Press
                    > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                    > Syracuse, NY 13204
                    > www.boxcarpress.com
                    >
                  • Harold Kyle
                    Are any lights completely out? I think you only need to replace the bulbs, but make sure to replace all of them (based on what you ve described). Harold ... --
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 2, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Are any lights completely out? I think you only need to replace the bulbs, but make sure to replace all of them (based on what you've described).

                      Harold

                      On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 4:00 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...> wrote:
                       

                      Thanks to Harold, Gerald, Peter, et al for the help and suggestions.

                      I will have to do some testing at the edge of my exposure unit with my Stouffer scale and see if I am getting different results there, which seems likely.

                      I have had intermittent problems with overexposure in certain areas as well, which has kept me from just increasing my exposure time. I am guessing this is the "hot spots" that some bulbs can develop over time?

                      Is there any detrimental effect to new bulbs if you replace just the bulbs rather than swapping the bulbs and the ballasts?

                      I will try exposing the back of the plate for 20 seconds to see if it might be a temporary workaround.

                      Glenwood Morris

                      Oslo Press Inc.

                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You're using all the right equipment and materials. The details on your
                      > plate are likely detaching because they haven't received enough light during
                      > the main exposure. The photopolymer material hasn't hardened all the way
                      > down to the base. It separates during drying while it contracts--it has
                      > nothing to hold on with.
                      >
                      > The bulbs most likely need replacing on your machine as you've surmised. In
                      > the meantime you may have to keep increasing your main exposure to
                      > compensate for their lack of output. Have you done a Stouffer test at the
                      > edge of your bulbs recently? Fluorescent tubes put out less and less light
                      > as they age. But you already knew this. Is this what you're asking?
                      >
                      > Harold
                      >
                      > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:47 AM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@...>wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Harold,
                      > >
                      > > I'm using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to
                      > > the newer ones with digital controls).
                      > >
                      > > It uses a bank of lights.
                      > >
                      > > The separation is happening at some point between post-washout rinsing and
                      > > the end of post-exposure. It is not 100% consistent but I will be examining
                      > > more closely between drying and post-exposure in the future.
                      > >
                      > > I am using silver emulsion film, yes.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Glenwood Morris
                      > >
                      > > Oslo Press Inc.
                      > >
                      > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > Harold Kyle <harold@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > 5 minutes shouldn't be too long for the washout. You're fine there.
                      > > >
                      > > > What type of platemaker do you use? Point light source or a bank of
                      > > lights?
                      > > >
                      > > > The photopolymer will separate for lots of reasons. It sounds like this
                      > > is
                      > > > happening during processing? During washout or during drying?
                      > > >
                      > > > Finally, are you using silver emulsion film? It sounds like you are. Just
                      > > > checking.
                      > > >
                      > > > Would love to help but need more info.
                      > > >
                      > > > Harold
                      > > >
                      > > > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@
                      > > ...>wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > More info:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Fresh KF95 plates.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that
                      > > > > require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer
                      > > scale). So
                      > > > > it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do
                      > > some
                      > > > > basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside
                      > > from
                      > > > > this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted
                      > > to
                      > > > > spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time
                      > > does not
                      > > > > cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new
                      > > bulbs
                      > > > > and ballasts is not insignificant.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see
                      > > if
                      > > > > that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure
                      > > > > times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I
                      > > may
                      > > > > have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it
                      > > is a
                      > > > > crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin
                      > > script
                      > > > > text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the
                      > > > > plate.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root
                      > > cause
                      > > > > of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just
                      > > tell me
                      > > > > to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Glenwood Morris
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com><PPLetterpress%
                      > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > >
                      > > > > "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that
                      > > have
                      > > > > separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester
                      > > backer.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions
                      > > > > about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having
                      > > > > problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there
                      > > was a
                      > > > > "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the
                      > > best.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Glenwood Morris
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > ---
                      > > > Boxcar Press
                      > > > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                      > > > Syracuse, NY 13204
                      > > > www.boxcarpress.com
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > ---
                      > Boxcar Press
                      > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                      > Syracuse, NY 13204
                      > www.boxcarpress.com
                      >




                      --
                      ---
                      Boxcar Press
                      501 W. Fayette St. #222
                      Syracuse, NY  13204
                      www.boxcarpress.com
                    • bielerpr
                      Glenwood This article might help http://bielerpressxi.blogspot.com/2006/03/on-scales-and-lamps.html You would not want to swap out a ballast unless one is
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 2, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Glenwood

                        This article might help

                        http://bielerpressxi.blogspot.com/2006/03/on-scales-and-lamps.html

                        You would not want to swap out a ballast unless one is malfunctioning. They last far longer than bulbs. If your bulbs all turn on, your ballasts are working. If a bulb or bulbs are acting erratically you likely would have a wiring/connection problem.

                        That suggestion re: back exposure is likely in reference to the KF152 plates not the KF95. The KF152 is a bit softer and thicker plate and that little trick is used to strengthen the relief structure. I doubt the KF95 would benefit from this as it does not share the problems that have been related regarding the KF152. Note that sheet photopolymer plates are already back-exposed by the manufacturer.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspsot.com



                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks to Harold, Gerald, Peter, et al for the help and suggestions.
                        >
                        > I will have to do some testing at the edge of my exposure unit with my Stouffer scale and see if I am getting different results there, which seems likely.
                        >
                        > I have had intermittent problems with overexposure in certain areas as well, which has kept me from just increasing my exposure time. I am guessing this is the "hot spots" that some bulbs can develop over time?
                        >
                        > Is there any detrimental effect to new bulbs if you replace just the bulbs rather than swapping the bulbs and the ballasts?
                        >
                        > I will try exposing the back of the plate for 20 seconds to see if it might be a temporary workaround.
                        >
                        > Glenwood Morris
                        >
                        > Oslo Press Inc.
                        >
                        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Harold Kyle <harold@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > You're using all the right equipment and materials. The details on your
                        > > plate are likely detaching because they haven't received enough light during
                        > > the main exposure. The photopolymer material hasn't hardened all the way
                        > > down to the base. It separates during drying while it contracts--it has
                        > > nothing to hold on with.
                        > >
                        > > The bulbs most likely need replacing on your machine as you've surmised. In
                        > > the meantime you may have to keep increasing your main exposure to
                        > > compensate for their lack of output. Have you done a Stouffer test at the
                        > > edge of your bulbs recently? Fluorescent tubes put out less and less light
                        > > as they age. But you already knew this. Is this what you're asking?
                        > >
                        > > Harold
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 12:47 AM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@>wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Harold,
                        > > >
                        > > > I'm using an older Jet A3 platemaker with analog controls (as opposed to
                        > > > the newer ones with digital controls).
                        > > >
                        > > > It uses a bank of lights.
                        > > >
                        > > > The separation is happening at some point between post-washout rinsing and
                        > > > the end of post-exposure. It is not 100% consistent but I will be examining
                        > > > more closely between drying and post-exposure in the future.
                        > > >
                        > > > I am using silver emulsion film, yes.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Glenwood Morris
                        > > >
                        > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > Harold Kyle <harold@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 5 minutes shouldn't be too long for the washout. You're fine there.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > What type of platemaker do you use? Point light source or a bank of
                        > > > lights?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The photopolymer will separate for lots of reasons. It sounds like this
                        > > > is
                        > > > > happening during processing? During washout or during drying?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Finally, are you using silver emulsion film? It sounds like you are. Just
                        > > > > checking.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Would love to help but need more info.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Harold
                        > > > >
                        > > > > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 11:09 PM, idgradstudent <glenwoodemorris@
                        > > > ...>wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > More info:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Fresh KF95 plates.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I have a lot of "variables" like oldish brushes, and older bulbs that
                        > > > > > require a long exposure time (9 minutes according to my stouefer
                        > > > scale). So
                        > > > > > it would certainly be easy to dismiss my issues by saying "Hey, go do
                        > > > some
                        > > > > > basic maintenance to your platemaker" and you would be right. Aside
                        > > > from
                        > > > > > this relatively recent issue the plates have been good so I have opted
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > spend funds on other more pressing issues as a longer exposure time
                        > > > does not
                        > > > > > cost me much since I only make plates for myself and the cost for new
                        > > > bulbs
                        > > > > > and ballasts is not insignificant.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > My washout is probably too long (5 minutes), I will back it off and see
                        > > > if
                        > > > > > that works. When I first acquired the machine I established my exposure
                        > > > > > times with a scale and my washout times through trial and error but I
                        > > > may
                        > > > > > have just gone too far. Generally if I lose anything to this problem it
                        > > > is a
                        > > > > > crop mark on the edge of a plate, but recently I started losing thin
                        > > > script
                        > > > > > text and fine lines in graphics if they were also near the edge of the
                        > > > > > plate.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > My question included limited info as I wanted to know what the root
                        > > > cause
                        > > > > > of photopolymer/polyester separation was rather than have folks just
                        > > > tell me
                        > > > > > to do maintenance that is not really an option right now.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Glenwood Morris
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com <PPLetterpress%40yahoogroups.com><PPLetterpress%
                        > > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > >
                        > > > > > "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@> wrote:
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I did some searching and found several discussions about plates that
                        > > > have
                        > > > > > separated; i.e. the photopolymer has detached from the polyester
                        > > > backer.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > What I did not find in the discussion was any agreed upon conclusions
                        > > > > > about why exactly this happens (or I simply missed it).
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Does anyone know what causes this to occur? I am currently having
                        > > > > > problems with this with some of my plates and was wondering if there
                        > > > was a
                        > > > > > "known cause" before I just start changing things and hoping for the
                        > > > best.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Glenwood Morris
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Oslo Press Inc.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --
                        > > > > ---
                        > > > > Boxcar Press
                        > > > > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                        > > > > Syracuse, NY 13204
                        > > > > www.boxcarpress.com
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > ---
                        > > Boxcar Press
                        > > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                        > > Syracuse, NY 13204
                        > > www.boxcarpress.com
                        > >
                        >
                      • Eric
                        ... If your hot spots float around to different places, another possibility is bad contact between neg and plate. That causes a general overexposure, where
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 2, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I have had intermittent problems with overexposure in certain areas as well, which has
                          > kept me from just increasing my exposure time. I am guessing this is the "hot spots"
                          > that some bulbs can develop over time?

                          If your hot spots float around to different places, another possibility is bad contact between neg and plate. That causes a general overexposure, where light leaks around the edges of the film image and exposes the non-image area.
                        • painted_tongue
                          This calls to mind something we were experiencing last year. We were using HX145 at the time, if I recall correctly. We were having some issues with certain
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 3, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            This calls to mind something we were experiencing last year. We were using HX145 at the time, if I recall correctly. We were having some issues with certain plates coming out brittle, cracking, and separating from the backing. Other plates worked, but you could tell from a slight color variation that they were fragile. Still other plates worked fine. After some trial and observation, one of my cohorts felt it was the length of post exposure. I was under the impression (based on something I was taught about a different plate material) that you couldn't over post expose. However as we worked through the problem, I had to agree, that it was the length of time in post exposure.

                            To drive the point home, one weekend a plate was accidently left sitting out in a place where the afternoon sunlight would reach it. The plate had already been made and post exposed. When we returned, the whole thing had thousands of fissures.

                            I wonder if as you're compensating for the bulbs aging by increasing exposure, post exposure, or both, you're winding up with too much time in the direct uv light?

                            Good luck!
                            Kim Vanderheiden

                            Painted Tongue Press


                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "idgradstudent" <glenwoodemorris@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Thanks to Harold, Gerald, Peter, et al for the help and suggestions.
                            >
                            > I will have to do some testing at the edge of my exposure unit with my Stouffer scale and see if I am getting different results there, which seems likely.
                            >
                            > I have had intermittent problems with overexposure in certain areas as well, which has kept me from just increasing my exposure time. I am guessing this is the "hot spots" that some bulbs can develop over time?
                            >
                            > Is there any detrimental effect to new bulbs if you replace just the bulbs rather than swapping the bulbs and the ballasts?
                            >
                            > I will try exposing the back of the plate for 20 seconds to see if it might be a temporary workaround.
                            >
                            > Glenwood Morris
                            >
                            > Oslo Press Inc.
                          • Eric
                            ... In one batch of HX145, I saw that happen to a plate that was left out under flourescent room light. The same batch could lose periods if you planed it too
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 3, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "painted_tongue" <paintedtongue@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > To drive the point home, one weekend a plate was accidently left sitting out in a place where the afternoon sunlight would reach it. The plate had already been made and post exposed. When we returned, the whole thing had thousands of fissures.
                              >
                              In one batch of HX145, I saw that happen to a plate that was left out under flourescent room light. The same batch could lose periods if you planed it too hard or let it slap the Bunting. This was about 15 years ago, haven't seen that fragility in HX145 since.
                              --Eric Holub, SF
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