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[PPLetterpress] Re: Typeface optimization

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  • Peter Fraterdeus
    ... Gerald, David -- I have better news, which is that OpenType is not really a new format. FontLab 4.5 can certainly edit OT fonts, either of the TrueType or
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 27, 2003
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      At 3:59 AM +0000 2003-01-28, Gerald Lange <bieler@...> wrote:
      >David
      >
      >...
      >
      >At this point in time, I'd start looking at OpenType offerings. The
      >PostScript format is marked for extinction. The Adobe line is now all
      >reconfigured to the OpenType format and a number of the fonts contain
      >opticals, or sized optimization. Emigre has re-released Mrs Eaves in
      >OpenType format. But not much else is actually out there yet (though
      >some of the smaller foundries are forging ahead). Problem is, with
      >OpenType you are kind of stuck with what you get. I don't believe that
      >you can edit an OT font like you can PostScript Type 1 font. Or, I
      >should say, I don't know that you can. If true, a bit disturbing.
      >
      >Gerald
      >

      Gerald, David --

      I have better news, which is that OpenType is not really a new format.
      FontLab 4.5 can certainly edit OT fonts, either of the TrueType or the Type 1 (Postscript) persuasion.

      Opentype is really just an updated package of font data, using the TrueType table format, but with extensions to allow Postscript Type 1 glyph outlines to be used (in .otf fonts). Open'true'type are still called .ttf fonts.

      No problem from that standpoint...as long as you can afford to buy FontLab ;-)

      P
      --
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    • Gerald Lange
      Peter Well, I d sure like to believe this, but after spending some time on one of the OpenType developers lists (over at Topica) desperately trying to sort out
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 27, 2003
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        Peter

        Well, I'd sure like to believe this, but after spending some time on one
        of the OpenType developers lists (over at Topica) desperately trying to
        sort out one definitive statement after conflicting definitive
        statement, I'm suspicious of the easy answer (which seems to be the
        corporate answer).

        FontLab 4.5 is available as an upgrade for $200 for anyone with a
        previous version and for the same price to anyone with a previous
        version of Fontographer.

        I'm not too quick to jump on the band wagon here. A lot of info on OT
        seems still uncertain, even untruthful, to me.

        Gerald


        >I have better news, which is that OpenType is not really a new format.
        >FontLab 4.5 can certainly edit OT fonts, either of the TrueType or the Type 1 (Postscript) persuasion.
        >
        >Opentype is really just an updated package of font data, using the TrueType table format, but with extensions to allow Postscript Type 1 glyph outlines to be used (in .otf fonts). Open'true'type are still called .ttf fonts.
        >
        >No problem from that standpoint...as long as you can afford to buy FontLab ;-)
        >
        >P
        >
        >
      • Peter Fraterdeus
        Gerald I ve got FL 4.5, having bought every version since it came out for the Mac. What s uncertain? The format is fully documented at Microsoft s Typography
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 27, 2003
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          Gerald

          I've got FL 4.5, having bought every version since it came out for the Mac.

          What's uncertain? The format is fully documented at Microsoft's Typography site (one of the only things I like about M$)

          I've just opened Zapfino.dfont, which is Apple's OT version of this Linotype face.
          I have full access to all the hundreds of glyphs in the font...

          (screen shots sent by request!)

          No problema!

          P.


          >Peter
          >
          >Well, I'd sure like to believe this, but after spending some time on one
          >of the OpenType developers lists (over at Topica) desperately trying to
          >sort out one definitive statement after conflicting definitive
          >statement, I'm suspicious of the easy answer (which seems to be the
          >corporate answer).
          >
          >FontLab 4.5 is available as an upgrade for $200 for anyone with a
          >previous version and for the same price to anyone with a previous
          >version of Fontographer.
          >
          >I'm not too quick to jump on the band wagon here. A lot of info on OT
          >seems still uncertain, even untruthful, to me.
          >
          >Gerald
          >
          >
          >>I have better news, which is that OpenType is not really a new format.
          >>FontLab 4.5 can certainly edit OT fonts, either of the TrueType or the Type 1 (Postscript) persuasion.
          >>
          >>Opentype is really just an updated package of font data, using the TrueType table format, but with extensions to allow Postscript Type 1 glyph outlines to be used (in .otf fonts). Open'true'type are still called .ttf fonts.
          >>
          >>No problem from that standpoint...as long as you can afford to buy FontLab ;-)
          >>
          >>P
          > >
          >>
        • Gerald Lange
          Zapfino would be AAT configured, correct? I get the feeling Apple doesn t feel all that comfortable with OT? What does full access to all hundreds of glyphs
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 27, 2003
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            Zapfino would be AAT configured, correct? I get the feeling Apple doesn't feel all that comfortable with OT?

            What does full access to all hundreds of glyphs actually mean? What modifications have you been able to make with FontLab?

            I'm well aware of Microsoft's documentation, and Adobe's, and Apple's. Some of it off the record. There are others who have a different take on this. From what I'm seeing the table standards are still evolving and consideration for inclusion is ongoing (as proffered by developers).

            I have no doubt about the industry need for OT. What I'm concerned about is the user's need for OT and the impact this will have on their existent type libraries and on their real computing needs.

            Bit serious about this. There's a lot of misinformation I'm trying to sort out and I frankly don't trust the pie in the sky, everything's coming up roses, don't worry about it, it will all be fine stuff.

            Are you developing fonts for OT?

            Gerald



            Peter Fraterdeus wrote:

            >Gerald
            >
            >I've got FL 4.5, having bought every version since it came out for the Mac.
            >
            >What's uncertain? The format is fully documented at Microsoft's Typography site (one of the only things I like about M$)
            >
            >I've just opened Zapfino.dfont, which is Apple's OT version of this Linotype face.
            >I have full access to all the hundreds of glyphs in the font...
            >
            >(screen shots sent by request!)
            >
            >No problema!
            >
            >P.
            >
          • Katie Harper
            Incidentally, there is a short article in this month s issue of HOW magazine about type formats, including Open Type, with its pros and cons. Interesting
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
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              Incidentally, there is a short article in this month's issue of HOW magazine
              about type formats, including Open Type, with its pros and cons. Interesting
              reading.


              Katie Harper
              Ars Brevis Press
              Cincinnati, OH
              513-233-9588
              http://www.arsbrevispress.com
            • Dr P.B. Watry
              What is this magazine and how do we get access to this article? Paul Watry
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
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                What is this magazine and how do we get access to this article?

                Paul Watry

                On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Katie Harper wrote:

                >Incidentally, there is a short article in this month's issue of HOW magazine
                >about type formats, including Open Type, with its pros and cons. Interesting
                >reading.
                >
                >
                >Katie Harper
                >Ars Brevis Press
                >Cincinnati, OH
                >513-233-9588
                >http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >• To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                >PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                >• Encountering problems? contact:
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                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                >
              • Katie Harper
                HOW is a semi-monthly graphic design magazine. It is found in all major bookstores and where magazines are sold in the section dealing with the arts. You might
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
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                  HOW is a semi-monthly graphic design magazine. It is found in all major
                  bookstores and where magazines are sold in the section dealing with the
                  arts.

                  You might also check their website. Sometimes articles or shortened versions
                  are repeated there. http://www.howdesign.com


                  Katie Harper
                  Ars Brevis Press
                  Cincinnati, OH
                  513-233-9588
                  http://www.arsbrevispress.com





                  > From: "Dr P.B. Watry" <Pwatry@...>
                  > Reply-To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:04:21 +0000 (GMT)
                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Open Type, etc.
                  >
                  > What is this magazine and how do we get access to this article?
                  >
                  > Paul Watry
                  >
                  > On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Katie Harper wrote:
                  >
                  >> Incidentally, there is a short article in this month's issue of HOW magazine
                  >> about type formats, including Open Type, with its pros and cons. Interesting
                  >> reading.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Katie Harper
                  >> Ars Brevis Press
                  >> Cincinnati, OH
                  >> 513-233-9588
                  >> http://www.arsbrevispress.com
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> • To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                  >> PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  >> • Encountering problems? contact:
                  >> PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >> • To unsubscribe:
                  >> PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >>
                  >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > • To respond to a post or post a message to the membership:
                  > PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  > • Encountering problems? contact:
                  > PPLetterpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > • To unsubscribe:
                  > PPLetterpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Hrant H Papazian
                  From: David P. Wall ... Not always, but it seems to me that generally the 12 point is chosen. Of course it doesn t much matter what you choose: things won t
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 28, 2003
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                    From: "David P. Wall"
                    > When typefaces are designed for computer reproduction,
                    > do the type designers always create their master
                    > patterns for a standard optimal size?

                    Not always, but it seems to me that generally the 12 point
                    is chosen. Of course it doesn't much matter what you choose:
                    things won't really work with less than at least 3 masters.
                    That's because there are two cutoffs in "modes of reading",
                    resulting in three bands: display, reading, sub-reading.

                    From: Gerald Lange
                    > Unless you have a multiple masters font with the appropriate axes

                    And there is a view that practically none of those really
                    work optimally: the smaller sizes especially don't go far
                    enough in terms of compensation for optical distortions.

                    I in fact have the view that small type has to have a
                    certain ugliness about it if it's ever seen large* and
                    this leads to the probable reason why the optical axes
                    don't go far enough: since it's possible to set large
                    type using the small end of the axis, resulting in the
                    insensitive user (~75% of them) exclaiming "Hey, that's
                    pretty ugly - what a waste of money on that font!", it
                    makes more business sense to strike a balance between
                    what it *needs* to be versus what most people expect.

                    * Look in particular at the work of Walter Tracy.

                    From: Peter Fraterdeus
                    > I've just opened Zapfino.dfont

                    But isn't that a "dumbed down" OT font?

                    Plus it's not just a matter of loading it up, it's a
                    matter of maintaining all its functionality when you
                    re-output it. For example, you can open up all those
                    wonderful MS core fonts in Fontographer, and it all
                    looks peachy, but when you generate a new font from
                    there you lose all the hinting, which is the entire
                    point of those fonts!

                    I share Gerald's uneasiness to some extent.

                    hhp
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