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Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates

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  • Eric
    ... Usually it was due to a hair or other foreign matter between neg and plate during exposure. Today with processor at hand I might just remake; in the past,
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 31 3:36 PM
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      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:

      > Not sure why one would have pitting or scratching to the surface of a
      > photopolymer plate unless it had something to do with the washout
      > process?

      Usually it was due to a hair or other foreign matter between neg and plate during exposure. Today with processor at hand I might just remake; in the past, with ridiculously long exposures in an offset plate burner, and hand washout not a very consistant method, I did everything I could to repair an almost-useable plate. It might be 90-120 minutes before the remake was ready, and no guarantee it wouldn't have some other defect. I've even used plastic steel epoxy to rebuild serifs, but it does need to sit overnight. Using the hardener from 5-minute epoxy didn't work!
      --Eric Holub, SF
    • Half Press
      Hi Gerald, Yes, I did say that gently sanding the surface a photopolymer plate will help getting the print just right, as ink adherence may improve. Oh well,
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2010
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        Hi Gerald,


        Yes, I did say that gently sanding the surface a photopolymer plate will help getting the print just right, as ink adherence may improve. Oh well, before it gets out of hand, please folks don't do that if you are just getting started, as it may actually end up doing the opposite; getting a bad job out the door. That is not good.


        But hey, if you like to try, knock yourselves out.


        Have you ever heard of "trapping" clichés when hairline register is difficult and the designer didn't contemplated trapping their artwork before outputting it to film?

        If you haven't heard of this, the technique is more or less the same, only that you will have to sand one of the plates (clichés) by a point or so. The result is to thicken parts of the image to produce a "trapping" effect.


        That was a technique used by old master printers that I had a privilege of learning from (back when printing was a good paying activity and there were hundreds of works to get the job done). I hope that many of them are out there in good taken care parks enjoying retirement; nice parks full of old men playing cards and no need to think about keeping their loans trimmed down.


        ****


        I just use oil based inks. I have no problem with them and therefore no need to try new stuff and, by the way, I have never used other inks but oil based ones.



        --- On Wed, 3/31/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:

        From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 8:59 AM

         

        A tad of Setswell Compound (from printmaking suppliers) is generally a useful additive to ink for coverage of large solid areas as it enhances the ink's "flowing" properties.

        I've noted some responses here regarding sanding down or lightly erasing the surface of a photopolymer plate. I don't know that I would ever recommend this. It seems detrimental to the purposeful printing qualities of photopolymer plates. If you are using polyester backed plates you might have a problem with coverage due to natural warpage due to stress factors. Not much you can do about this, sorry to say.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress. blogspot. com

        --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "bigwheelpress" <nohogallery@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > I just printed a wedding invitation on Lettra with a large solid area. I normally use oil based inks, but used Van Son rubber based and had a tough time getting good coverage. The no-skim factor is nice. Any tips for good coverage?
        >


      • bielerpr
        Hello Half Press As a general approach, it s not that I dismiss these practices, or tricks or techniques that someone has discovered, or rediscovered, etc.;
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 2, 2010
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          Hello Half Press

          As a general approach, it's not that I dismiss these practices, or tricks or techniques that someone has discovered, or rediscovered, etc.; it's more that I'm not sure they are that beneficial to others (especially newbies, who now comprise the majority on this list) IF they are not so fully explained that anyone reading the post can readily understand how to proceed.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Half Press <half.press@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Gerald,
          >
          >
          > Yes, I did say that gently sanding the surface a photopolymer plate will help getting the print just right, as ink adherence may improve. Oh well, before it gets out of hand, please folks don't do that if you are just getting started, as it may actually end up doing the opposite; getting a bad job out the door. That is not good.
          >
          >
          > But hey, if you like to try, knock yourselves out.
          >
          >
          > Have you ever heard of "trapping" clichés when hairline register is difficult and the designer didn't contemplated trapping their artwork before outputting it to film?
          > If you haven't heard of this, the technique is more or less the same, only that you will have to sand one of the plates (clichés) by a point or so. The result is to thicken parts of the image to produce a "trapping" effect.
          >
          >
          > That was a technique used by old master printers that I had a privilege of learning from (back when printing was a good paying activity and there were hundreds of works to get the job done). I hope that many of them are out there in good taken care parks enjoying retirement; nice parks full of old men playing cards and no need to think about keeping their loans trimmed down.
          > ****
          > I just use oil based inks. I have no problem with them and therefore no need to try new stuff and, by the way, I have never used other inks but oil based ones.
          >
          > --- On Wed, 3/31/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 8:59 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > A tad of Setswell Compound (from printmaking suppliers) is generally a useful additive to ink for coverage of large solid areas as it enhances the ink's "flowing" properties.
          >
          >
          >
          > I've noted some responses here regarding sanding down or lightly erasing the surface of a photopolymer plate. I don't know that I would ever recommend this. It seems detrimental to the purposeful printing qualities of photopolymer plates. If you are using polyester backed plates you might have a problem with coverage due to natural warpage due to stress factors. Not much you can do about this, sorry to say.
          >
          >
          >
          > Gerald
          >
          > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "bigwheelpress" <nohogallery@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > >
          >
          > > I just printed a wedding invitation on Lettra with a large solid area. I normally use oil based inks, but used Van Son rubber based and had a tough time getting good coverage. The no-skim factor is nice. Any tips for good coverage?
          >
          > >
          >
        • Half Press
          Gerald, Yes, you are right on the nail. I did got some jobs out right because I was having a issue.It never come to my mind to go ask it over in the inter-
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 4, 2010
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            Gerald,

            Yes, you are right on the nail. I did got some jobs out right because I was having a issue.
            It never come to my mind to go ask it over in the inter- net.
            Now imagine if I start calling packing "pillow" ... and type gauge "high-o-meter".



            --- On Sat, 4/3/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:

            From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 3:34 AM

             

            Hello Half Press

            As a general approach, it's not that I dismiss these practices, or tricks or techniques that someone has discovered, or rediscovered, etc.; it's more that I'm not sure they are that beneficial to others (especially newbies, who now comprise the majority on this list) IF they are not so fully explained that anyone reading the post can readily understand how to proceed.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress. blogspot. com

            --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, Half Press <half.press@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Gerald,
            >
            >
            > Yes, I did say that gently sanding the surface a photopolymer plate will help getting the print just right, as ink adherence may improve. Oh well, before it gets out of hand, please folks don't do that if you are just getting started, as it may actually end up doing the opposite; getting a bad job out the door. That is not good.
            >
            >
            > But hey, if you like to try, knock yourselves out.
            >
            >
            > Have you ever heard of "trapping" clichés when hairline register is difficult and the designer didn't contemplated trapping their artwork before outputting it to film?
            > If you haven't heard of this, the technique is more or less the same, only that you will have to sand one of the plates (clichés) by a point or so. The result is to thicken parts of the image to produce a "trapping" effect.
            >
            >
            > That was a technique used by old master printers that I had a privilege of learning from (back when printing was a good paying activity and there were hundreds of works to get the job done). I hope that many of them are out there in good taken care parks enjoying retirement; nice parks full of old men playing cards and no need to think about keeping their loans trimmed down.
            > ****
            > I just use oil based inks. I have no problem with them and therefore no need to try new stuff and, by the way, I have never used other inks but oil based ones.
            >
            > --- On Wed, 3/31/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
            > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
            > To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 8:59 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > A tad of Setswell Compound (from printmaking suppliers) is generally a useful additive to ink for coverage of large solid areas as it enhances the ink's "flowing" properties.
            >
            >
            >
            > I've noted some responses here regarding sanding down or lightly erasing the surface of a photopolymer plate. I don't know that I would ever recommend this. It seems detrimental to the purposeful printing qualities of photopolymer plates. If you are using polyester backed plates you might have a problem with coverage due to natural warpage due to stress factors. Not much you can do about this, sorry to say.
            >
            >
            >
            > Gerald
            >
            > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "bigwheelpress" <nohogallery@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            >
            > > I just printed a wedding invitation on Lettra with a large solid area. I normally use oil based inks, but used Van Son rubber based and had a tough time getting good coverage. The no-skim factor is nice. Any tips for good coverage?
            >
            > >
            >


          • Half Press
            Gerald, Yes, you are right on the nail. I did got some jobs out right because I was having a issue wiit this one job. It never come to my mind to go ask it
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2010
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              Gerald,


              Yes, you are right on the nail. I did got some jobs out right because I was having a issue wiit this one job. It never come to my mind to go ask it over in the internet. Instead I thought hey, let me sand this thing and it did work.  Will work if you know what you are doing.


              As matter fact, it would work better with metal plates, polymer is to delicate. You should see a plate I did yesterday with 4 point body size type in it. Designer job. I will only be sure if that plate is okay when a pull a first proof of it. I am expecting issues coming with this one job.


              Now imagine if I start calling packing "pillow" ... and type gauge "height-o-meter" which in correct spelling, "Alto-meter".


              You are right, better leave the teaching to established think-tankers. I haven't ordered you book. I am sure it must be a compendium of best practices and, next time someone ask something, I will point to your book.


              --- On Sat, 4/3/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:

              From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
              Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 3:34 AM

               

              Hello Half Press

              As a general approach, it's not that I dismiss these practices, or tricks or techniques that someone has discovered, or rediscovered, etc.; it's more that I'm not sure they are that beneficial to others (especially newbies, who now comprise the majority on this list) IF they are not so fully explained that anyone reading the post can readily understand how to proceed.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress. blogspot. com

              --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, Half Press <half.press@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Gerald,
              >
              >
              > Yes, I did say that gently sanding the surface a photopolymer plate will help getting the print just right, as ink adherence may improve. Oh well, before it gets out of hand, please folks don't do that if you are just getting started, as it may actually end up doing the opposite; getting a bad job out the door. That is not good.
              >
              >
              > But hey, if you like to try, knock yourselves out.
              >
              >
              > Have you ever heard of "trapping" clichés when hairline register is difficult and the designer didn't contemplated trapping their artwork before outputting it to film?
              > If you haven't heard of this, the technique is more or less the same, only that you will have to sand one of the plates (clichés) by a point or so. The result is to thicken parts of the image to produce a "trapping" effect.
              >
              >
              > That was a technique used by old master printers that I had a privilege of learning from (back when printing was a good paying activity and there were hundreds of works to get the job done). I hope that many of them are out there in good taken care parks enjoying retirement; nice parks full of old men playing cards and no need to think about keeping their loans trimmed down.
              > ****
              > I just use oil based inks. I have no problem with them and therefore no need to try new stuff and, by the way, I have never used other inks but oil based ones.
              >
              > --- On Wed, 3/31/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
              > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
              > To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Wednesday, March 31, 2010, 8:59 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > A tad of Setswell Compound (from printmaking suppliers) is generally a useful additive to ink for coverage of large solid areas as it enhances the ink's "flowing" properties.
              >
              >
              >
              > I've noted some responses here regarding sanding down or lightly erasing the surface of a photopolymer plate. I don't know that I would ever recommend this. It seems detrimental to the purposeful printing qualities of photopolymer plates. If you are using polyester backed plates you might have a problem with coverage due to natural warpage due to stress factors. Not much you can do about this, sorry to say.
              >
              >
              >
              > Gerald
              >
              > http://BielerPress. blogspot. com
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, "bigwheelpress" <nohogallery@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > I just printed a wedding invitation on Lettra with a large solid area. I normally use oil based inks, but used Van Son rubber based and had a tough time getting good coverage. The no-skim factor is nice. Any tips for good coverage?
              >
              > >
              >


            • bielerpr
              Some further thoughts. The concept of reducing or shallowing out a plate is not new. A very detailed and industry sanctioned technical manual Letterpress
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 4, 2010
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                Some further thoughts.

                The concept of reducing or shallowing out a plate is not new. A very detailed and industry sanctioned technical manual "Letterpress Platemaking," (the last of such) by Frederick Gordon Wallis (1969), indicates that this was a common and considered practice by industry engravers of a previous period. The Wallis tome is somewhat the last gasp summary and does close with discussion of the impending photopolymer plate process.

                Photopolymer plates themselves do "shallow out" as a natural consequence of the technology. Proximity of surface area relative to size of surface area can result in this effect, which is beneficial and is most apparent with the dot pattern of halftones.

                But photopolymer is a relatively soft surface compared to metal photomechanical engravings and I would be reluctant to attempt abrading the surface in any manner nor suggest it as a possibility, especially if the cause is poor film or a damaged plate, which are readily replaceable.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
              • Half Press
                Some more,  reducing or shallowing is a new way for me to call it. Thanks. You are right on the nail once more. Anyone should be reluctant on trying this
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 8, 2010
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                  Some more,

                  reducing or shallowing " is a new way for me to call it. Thanks.

                  You are right on the nail once more. Anyone should be reluctant on trying this techniques unless they know what they are doing.

                  And, to confim, I do belive that you are indeed the right guy to ask questions to.

                  If you are new to letterpress printing, please, think twice before attempting so innovative way to get the job done right. It would be easier just re-plate a plate that deosn't want to cooperate.

                  --- On Mon, 4/5/10, bielerpr <Bieler@...> wrote:

                  From: bielerpr <Bieler@...>
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Rubber Based Inks on Polymer Plates
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 6:43 AM

                   

                  Some further thoughts.

                  The concept of reducing or shallowing out a plate is not new. A very detailed and industry sanctioned technical manual "Letterpress Platemaking, " (the last of such) by Frederick Gordon Wallis (1969), indicates that this was a common and considered practice by industry engravers of a previous period. The Wallis tome is somewhat the last gasp summary and does close with discussion of the impending photopolymer plate process.

                  Photopolymer plates themselves do "shallow out" as a natural consequence of the technology. Proximity of surface area relative to size of surface area can result in this effect, which is beneficial and is most apparent with the dot pattern of halftones.

                  But photopolymer is a relatively soft surface compared to metal photomechanical engravings and I would be reluctant to attempt abrading the surface in any manner nor suggest it as a possibility, especially if the cause is poor film or a damaged plate, which are readily replaceable.

                  Gerald
                  http://BielerPress. blogspot. com


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