Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Plate walking

Expand Messages
  • bielerpr
    Matthew I m wondering (?) if you are using a polyester-backed plate on a base that is configured for steel-backed plates. That would account for the .004
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 6, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Matthew

      I'm wondering (?) if you are using a polyester-backed plate on a base that is configured for steel-backed plates. That would account for the .004 discrepancy (film adhesive is commonly .004 and bases configured for this would take it into account, such as a Boxcar or Eluminum). (?)

      Gerald
      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <Megalonyx@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@> wrote:
      > >
      > > While printing larger plates (11 x17) on a Heidelburg S cylinder I've noticed they have a tendency to "walk" away from the gripper edge as they're run. We went through and checked the height of the base and plates and found they are .922 so we raised all the form rollers to compensate. [...] The packing was .042, we removed .006 but eventually added .002 because of the print quality putting us at .038. The user manual recommends .047.
      >
      > With high plate and low packing, your sheet is travelling slower than the plate is. The plate is being pushed backwards as a result.
      > A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
      > --Eric Holub, SF
      >
    • Eric
      To elaborate: there is some basic geometry involved here. The cylinder press is designed to have the surface of the form move at bearer level, which is an
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        To elaborate: there is some basic geometry involved here. The cylinder press is designed to have the surface of the form move at bearer level, which is an exact tangent to the cylinder. The cylinder and bed move on geared contact and so speeds are constant at that tangent. Change the diameter of the cylinder and it moves at a different surface speed.
        Raise the form and reduce the packing and the surface speed of the cylinder is slower than the form. This can result in image slur, which is explained very well in the Heidelberg manual, or in your case in backward plate creep, and maybe slur as well. (Gerald, the reason most Vandercooks have forward plate creep is, most Vandercooks are overpacked to get heavier impression than was intended by the manual's specified .003" squeeze.)
        The same geometry works on platen press rollers in relation of truck to roller diameter (differences leading to inking slur or wiping), and the offset press, where shifting packing between plate and blanket cylinders changes print length. I would not be surprised if your situation didn't result in altered print length as well. You can check by putting the negative on the printed sheet and comparing the image.
        --Eric Holub, SF
      • Half Press
        I suppose your small plates don t move (as much as big 11x17 ones) because the pressure is in a smaller area then in a 11x17 plate size. The bigger the
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          I suppose your small plates don't move (as much as big 11x17 ones) because the pressure is in a smaller area then in a 11x17 plate size. The bigger the impression area the bigger the pressure on the surface of the plate.


          If you are using film backed plates it will print only "kissing" impressions with the correct packing and hight .918" for the plate.


          What is moving the plate is the extra pressure. If you use steel backed plates on a "bounting base" it will hold the plate in place longer because they seem to have a strong magnetism, but it will move it no matter what. It would print "kissing" impressions without moving or as you say, walk.


          There is a way: Steel backed plates nailed to a wood base, like in an old cut.


          The plate must be at .918 for a proper result on cylinder presses. If you have a higher plate then .918 or incorrect packing, it will cause the plate to be moving on a slightly different speed the the cylinder.


          I suppose a Vandercook wouldn't give you trouble like this because the cylinder runs over a static plate. Only the cylinder moves, as opposed to a plate and cylinder movement on a cylinder press.


          Good luck


          The Smallest Printer




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • matthew lamoureux
          Brand new Bunting Bases. I forget the number but the size is right about 12.25 x 7.125 and we have three of them lined up for a total base of 12.25 x 21.375.
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Brand new Bunting Bases. I forget the number but the size is right about 12.25 x 7.125 and we have three of them lined up for a total base of 12.25 x 21.375. We had a piece of aluminum milled to the same height as the bases to make up where the plate overhangs the base.

            Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
            Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


            Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
            Thomas Jefferson


            When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by a woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".




            ________________________________
            From: Scott Rubel <scott@...>
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, December 6, 2009 4:25:25 PM
            Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Plate walking


            Are they Bunting bases or PatMags? --Scott

            On Dec 6, 2009, at 1:07 PM, matthew lamoureux wrote:

            > While printing larger plates (11 x17) on a Heidelburg S cylinder
            > I've noticed they have a tendency to "walk" away from the gripper
            > edge as they're run. We went through and checked the height of the
            > base and plates and found they are .922 so we raised all the form
            > rollers to compensate. We placed .oo4 of packing on the bed and
            > used a .918 roller gauge. We adjusted the rollers until we had
            > slightly less than an 1/8" stripe. We also changed from 3 form
            > rollers to two. We also reduced the packing on the cylinder. The
            > packing was .042, we removed .006 but eventually added .002 because
            > of the print quality putting us at .038. The user manual
            > recommends .047. We're printing 20pt coated paper. the press prints
            > about perfect now, but the plates are still walking and we have
            > some projects coming that will have critical registration.
            >
            > Our magnetic base is not quite as big as the plate. It's large
            > enough for the print area, but the plate hangs off the base on all
            > four sides about 1/2 to a full inch. I know the plate SHOULD be
            > fully on the base, but these things were not cheap so asked the rep
            > if this would work and he didn't see a problem with it. Now I'm
            > wondering though if there's not enough strength in the bases to
            > hold the plate in place under the pressure of the cylinder? Is
            > there some other way to help keep the plates in place instead of
            > getting more bases?
            >
            > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
            > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
            >
            >
            > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
            > Thomas Jefferson
            >
            >
            > When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was
            > asked by a woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A
            > Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Eric
            ... That piece of aluminum is where you can drill and install mounting/registration pins. Make them the same height as the block and they can be used slightly
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...> wrote:
              >
              > . . . We had a piece of aluminum milled to the same height as the bases to make up where the plate overhangs the base.
              >
              That piece of aluminum is where you can drill and install mounting/registration pins. Make them the same height as the block and they can be used slightly up for plate mounting or tapped down level. No creep then.
              --Eric Holub, SF
            • matthew lamoureux
              ... I used sheets of packing totaling .004 on the bed under the roller gauge so I could adjust the rollers .004 higher than .918. Basically I lifted the roller
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                >If your base and plate height together measure .922, which is over type
                >high, I'm not sure why you would then add a .004 underlay. Or am I
                >missing something here?

                I used sheets of packing totaling .004 on the bed under the roller gauge so I could adjust the rollers .004 higher than .918. Basically I lifted the roller gauge up by .004 to give me a gauge height of .922 to set the rollers by. I removed the sheets of packing after the rollers were set.

                >In general practice, adjustment to roller height
                >or cylinder packing is not necessarily going to compensate if your form
                >is not at .918.

                That's one of the really nice things about they cylinder press. The cylinder runs on bearers that keep it .918 from the bed, but the main portion of the cylinder is under cut and needs to be packed, this is where the .047 number comes from in the manual. Packing the cylinder with .047 should bring it up to the same height as the bearers (I think) and make it .918 from the bed. As such you can under pack or over pack to adjust for low or tall type/forms as well as thinner and thicker stocks.

                Right now it's packed at .038 and I get a good solid print out of the largest type and hardly any impression into the sheet. At .036 the large type was showing the paper though it from the finish in the sheet. .002 is the thinnest sheet of packing I have. I supposed I could have taken out another .003 and put in two .002 sheets. . . but I don't think the walking could be the result of .001" of packing?

                >You don't mention what type of plate or base you are
                >using but it may be a case of too much "sheer pressure" (from
                >rollers/cylinder packing) that is causing the plate to travel.
                >Why did your sales rep sell you this plate/base combination?

                The rep I had from Bunting didn't know anything about plate heights, types or combinations. He only asked what height I wanted the bases milled to. Since I didn't know which plates were being ordered from Boxcar (they're sub'ing out to another designer for that) I went with the lowest recommended base height on Boxcar's site figuring I'd rather have to over pack the cylinder than find I can't under pack it enough. The bases actually read more like .8585 we didn't read how high the plates actually were, just the total of the two. The other thing I just though of is we didn't check the height of the bed to the cylinder, but since we removed enough packing to hinder the print quality I'd imagine we're OK there.
              • matthew lamoureux
                Thanks Eric and everyone else. I m going to call the designer that s been doing the art and ordering the plates and talk to them about them. Hopefully these
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Eric and everyone else.

                  I'm going to call the designer that's been doing the art and ordering the plates and talk to them about them. Hopefully these ones coming up haven't been ordered yet.

                  I'll keep the idea of pins in that blockin mind.

                  Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                  Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


                  Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                  Thomas Jefferson


                  When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by a woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".




                  ________________________________
                  From: Eric <Megalonyx@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, December 7, 2009 6:49:34 PM
                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plate walking




                  --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > . . . We had a piece of aluminum milled to the same height as the bases to make up where the plate overhangs the base.
                  >
                  That piece of aluminum is where you can drill and install mounting/registrati on pins. Make them the same height as the block and they can be used slightly up for plate mounting or tapped down level. No creep then.
                  --Eric Holub, SF







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Eric
                  ... Note that the .047 (1.2mm, 3/64 ) includes the sheet to be printed. They made a small gauge to determine maximium packing/stock quickly. To quote the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...> wrote:

                    > That's one of the really nice things about they cylinder press. The cylinder runs on bearers that keep it .918 from the bed, but the main portion of the cylinder is under cut and needs to be packed, this is where the .047 number comes from in the manual. Packing the cylinder with .047 should bring it up to the same height as the bearers (I think) and make it .918 from the bed. As such you can under pack or over pack to adjust for low or tall type/forms as well as thinner and thicker stocks. >

                    Note that the .047" (1.2mm, 3/64") includes the sheet to be printed. They made a small gauge to determine maximium packing/stock quickly.

                    To quote the manual, in the section "Slur-caused by High or Low Cuts (Blocks)":
                    "If the cuts are not of the proper height, they are not in corrrect level with the cylinder radius. The pressman compensates for this by under- or over-packing the cylinder. This affects the speed ratio of the cylinder to the type bed and the halftone dots are elongated or pear-shaped, pointing to either the gripper or the tail end of the sheet, depending on whether the cut (block) is too high or too low. "
                    The slur described is the effect of slipping between surface of form and surface of paper because of the differing speeds. My assumption here is that the same slippage can affect plate travel in magnetic mounting, but I could be wrong.

                    (Another thing, not all Heidelberg cylinders are .918" machines, just the Anglo-American export models which usually have English instuction labels. I have worked on a German-market .928" machine and on it forms had to be underlaid with 10-mil film.)
                    --Eric Holub, SF
                  • Eric
                    ... Note that the .047 (1.2mm, 3/64 ) includes the sheet to be printed. They made a small gauge to determine maximium packing/stock quickly. To quote the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 7, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...> wrote:

                      > That's one of the really nice things about they cylinder press. The cylinder runs on bearers that keep it .918 from the bed, but the main portion of the cylinder is under cut and needs to be packed, this is where the .047 number comes from in the manual. Packing the cylinder with .047 should bring it up to the same height as the bearers (I think) and make it .918 from the bed. As such you can under pack or over pack to adjust for low or tall type/forms as well as thinner and thicker stocks. >

                      Note that the .047" (1.2mm, 3/64") includes the sheet to be printed. They made a small gauge to determine maximium packing/stock quickly.

                      To quote the manual, in the section "Slur-caused by High or Low Cuts (Blocks)":
                      "If the cuts are not of the proper height, they are not in corrrect level with the cylinder radius. The pressman compensates for this by under- or over-packing the cylinder. This affects the speed ratio of the cylinder to the type bed and the halftone dots are elongated or pear-shaped, pointing to either the gripper or the tail end of the sheet, depending on whether the cut (block) is too high or too low. "
                      The slur described is the effect of slipping between surface of form and surface of paper because of the differing speeds. My assumption here is that the same slippage can affect plate travel in magnetic mounting, but I could be wrong.

                      (Another thing, not all Heidelberg cylinders are .918" machines, just the Anglo-American export models which usually have English instuction labels. I have worked on a German-market .928" machine and on it forms had to be underlaid with 10-mil film.)
                      --Eric Holub, SF
                    • matthew lamoureux
                      ... They made a small gauge to determine maximium packing/stock quickly. I have the gauge and use it to be sure the packing isn t to much. I ll have to grab a
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 8, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >Note that the .047" (1.2mm, 3/64") includes the sheet to be printed.
                        They made a small gauge to determine >maximium packing/stock quickly.

                        I have the gauge and use it to be sure the packing isn't to much. I'll have to grab a loop the next time I'm there and see if there is any slur in the half tone. The manual isn't very clear, at least from what I gathered, about if the total of .047 was to include the sheet being printed or was just for the packing. The samples in the back of the book all fit VERY tight into the packing gauge so I figured it'd didn't include the sheet. Knowing, though, that I'm printing a very heavy stock (20pt) I made sure to use only enough packing to get a good print with little impression into the sheet as possible.





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • matthew lamoureux
                        Next time I m there I m going to bring my table top micrometer. It s an extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that s bothering me is we
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Next time I'm there I'm going to bring my table top micrometer. It's an
                          extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that's bothering me is we
                          ordered the base ground to Boxcar's specs listed on their site, .858".
                          The hand held dial caliper reads .8585". We measured the base and plate together while the base was locked in the chase, which was a bit tricky, but checked it a couple of times and got .922". Without actually measuring the plate alone that would mean the plate was .0635" - .064". Why would the plates be .004" higher than what's listed on the site for 152SB?



                          ________________________________


                          A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
                          --Eric Holub, SF




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Harold Kyle
                          Matthew: Our records show that you purchased KF152, which measures 0.060 but ships with 0.004 film adhesive. This means the plate should measure 0.064 thick.
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Matthew:

                            Our records show that you purchased KF152, which measures 0.060 but ships
                            with 0.004 film adhesive. This means the plate should measure 0.064 thick.
                            Is your plate transparent or does it have a rigid metal back? Transparent
                            means KF152.

                            I couldn't find a base purchase under your name in our system, which I would
                            need to get the exact measurements of your base. I would be astonished if we
                            shipped a 0.8585" base, which is way out of spec. The actual thickness
                            should be 0.0853 +/- 0.001. Can you share with me the serial number stamped
                            on the side?

                            I don't see reference to 0.858" as the base thickness on boxcarpress.com,
                            but I do see this height mentioned incorrectly on some other websites. I'll
                            write to them to clarify in order to avoid any future confusion. The correct
                            height is 0.853".

                            Thanks
                            Harold

                            On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:40 AM, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...>wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Next time I'm there I'm going to bring my table top micrometer. It's an
                            > extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that's
                            > bothering me is we
                            > ordered the base ground to Boxcar's specs listed on their site, .858".
                            > The hand held dial caliper reads .8585". We measured the base and plate
                            > together while the base was locked in the chase, which was a bit tricky, but
                            > checked it a couple of times and got .922". Without actually measuring the
                            > plate alone that would mean the plate was .0635" - .064". Why would the
                            > plates be .004" higher than what's listed on the site for 152SB?
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
                            > --Eric Holub, SF
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            ---
                            Boxcar Press
                            501 W. Fayette St. #222
                            Syracuse, NY 13204
                            www.boxcarpress.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • engrossersscript@aol.com
                            I am helping a dear friend of mine do her invitation. We want to do letterpress (though I dnt have one I am able to use the ones at the Printing Museum and
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I am helping a dear friend of mine do her invitation. We want to do letterpress (though I dnt have one I am able to use the ones at the Printing Museum and also a good friend of mine has two that are run with motors. I have never done anything like this before and I should of thought about this before offering. I know I need a plate, she also wants something embossed on them and we will also do the envelopes.... can ANY ONE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me with this project or give me any ideas? I have asked a few of the member of the Museum and noone has returned my emails or calls.... =( I have lots of time the wedding is not till next year but I want to start working on this asap so I dnt rush it! Any ideas or comments please feel free and thank you all talented printers =)

                              Leenah
                              www.thevintagehand.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Harold Kyle
                              OK I was confused by this thread, and talked with Matthew off-list. Apparently he has a Bunting base, which is 0.858, as we do mention on our website. That
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                OK I was confused by this thread, and talked with Matthew off-list.
                                Apparently he has a Bunting base, which is 0.858, as we do mention on our
                                website. That much is correct. I thought mistakenly he was referring to our
                                Deep Relief base. He is also apparently ordering 152SB steel backed plates
                                but I can't see how they would be thicker than 0.060. He's going to test
                                them with another measuring tool and report back.

                                Sorry for the confusion!
                                Harold

                                On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:

                                > Matthew:
                                >
                                > Our records show that you purchased KF152, which measures 0.060 but ships
                                > with 0.004 film adhesive. This means the plate should measure 0.064 thick.
                                > Is your plate transparent or does it have a rigid metal back? Transparent
                                > means KF152.
                                >
                                > I couldn't find a base purchase under your name in our system, which I
                                > would need to get the exact measurements of your base. I would be astonished
                                > if we shipped a 0.8585" base, which is way out of spec. The actual thickness
                                > should be 0.0853 +/- 0.001. Can you share with me the serial number stamped
                                > on the side?
                                >
                                > I don't see reference to 0.858" as the base thickness on boxcarpress.com,
                                > but I do see this height mentioned incorrectly on some other websites. I'll
                                > write to them to clarify in order to avoid any future confusion. The correct
                                > height is 0.853".
                                >
                                > Thanks
                                > Harold
                                >
                                > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:40 AM, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...>wrote:
                                >
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Next time I'm there I'm going to bring my table top micrometer. It's an
                                >> extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that's
                                >> bothering me is we
                                >> ordered the base ground to Boxcar's specs listed on their site, .858".
                                >> The hand held dial caliper reads .8585". We measured the base and plate
                                >> together while the base was locked in the chase, which was a bit tricky, but
                                >> checked it a couple of times and got .922". Without actually measuring the
                                >> plate alone that would mean the plate was .0635" - .064". Why would the
                                >> plates be .004" higher than what's listed on the site for 152SB?
                                >>
                                >> ________________________________
                                >>
                                >> A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
                                >> --Eric Holub, SF
                                >>
                                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > ---
                                > Boxcar Press
                                > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                > Syracuse, NY 13204
                                > www.boxcarpress.com
                                >



                                --
                                ---
                                Boxcar Press
                                501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                Syracuse, NY 13204
                                www.boxcarpress.com


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Edgar Weber
                                Where are you? ________________________________ From: engrossersscript@aol.com To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Where are you?




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: "engrossersscript@..." <engrossersscript@...>
                                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 8:02:43 AM
                                  Subject: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(

                                   


                                  I am helping a dear friend of mine do her invitation. We want to do letterpress (though I dnt have one I am able to use the ones at the Printing Museum and also a good friend of mine has two that are run with motors. I have never done anything like this before and I should of thought about this before offering. I know I need a plate, she also wants something embossed on them and we will also do the envelopes... . can ANY ONE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me with this project or give me any ideas? I have asked a few of the member of the Museum and noone has returned my emails or calls.... =( I have lots of time the wedding is not till next year but I want to start working on this asap so I dnt rush it! Any ideas or comments please feel free and thank you all talented printers =)

                                  Leenah
                                  www.thevintagehand. com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Scott Rubel
                                  What kinds of forces does it take to make a steel plate on a Bunting base move? Even with all the relational physics answers posted earlier, once the plate
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    What kinds of forces does it take to make a steel plate on a Bunting
                                    base move? Even with all the relational physics answers posted earlier,
                                    once the plate gets over a few inches I can't imagine how it could move.

                                    --Scott

                                    Harold Kyle wrote:
                                    > OK I was confused by this thread, and talked with Matthew off-list.
                                    > Apparently he has a Bunting base, which is 0.858, as we do mention on our
                                    > website. That much is correct. I thought mistakenly he was referring to our
                                    > Deep Relief base. He is also apparently ordering 152SB steel backed plates
                                    > but I can't see how they would be thicker than 0.060. He's going to test
                                    > them with another measuring tool and report back.
                                    >
                                    > Sorry for the confusion!
                                    > Harold
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> Matthew:
                                    >>
                                    >> Our records show that you purchased KF152, which measures 0.060 but ships
                                    >> with 0.004 film adhesive. This means the plate should measure 0.064 thick.
                                    >> Is your plate transparent or does it have a rigid metal back? Transparent
                                    >> means KF152.
                                    >>
                                    >> I couldn't find a base purchase under your name in our system, which I
                                    >> would need to get the exact measurements of your base. I would be astonished
                                    >> if we shipped a 0.8585" base, which is way out of spec. The actual thickness
                                    >> should be 0.0853 +/- 0.001. Can you share with me the serial number stamped
                                    >> on the side?
                                    >>
                                    >> I don't see reference to 0.858" as the base thickness on boxcarpress.com,
                                    >> but I do see this height mentioned incorrectly on some other websites. I'll
                                    >> write to them to clarify in order to avoid any future confusion. The correct
                                    >> height is 0.853".
                                    >>
                                    >> Thanks
                                    >> Harold
                                    >>
                                    >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:40 AM, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...>wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>> Next time I'm there I'm going to bring my table top micrometer. It's an
                                    >>> extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that's
                                    >>> bothering me is we
                                    >>> ordered the base ground to Boxcar's specs listed on their site, .858".
                                    >>> The hand held dial caliper reads .8585". We measured the base and plate
                                    >>> together while the base was locked in the chase, which was a bit tricky, but
                                    >>> checked it a couple of times and got .922". Without actually measuring the
                                    >>> plate alone that would mean the plate was .0635" - .064". Why would the
                                    >>> plates be .004" higher than what's listed on the site for 152SB?
                                    >>>
                                    >>> ________________________________
                                    >>>
                                    >>> A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
                                    >>> --Eric Holub, SF
                                    >>>
                                    >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>>
                                    >>
                                    >> --
                                    >> ---
                                    >> Boxcar Press
                                    >> 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                    >> Syracuse, NY 13204
                                    >> www.boxcarpress.com
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                  • matthew lamoureux
                                    Harold, I just found out the two jobs I ve been talking about might already be at boxcar for plating. They would be coming from The R. Frank Printing Company,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Harold,
                                      I just found out the two jobs I've been talking about might already be at boxcar for plating. They would be coming from The R. Frank Printing Company, his email is richard.frank@... and they are being made/paid for by Wild BIll in Middletown Connecticut. I don't know what they both are but one I'm sure is a pink and black poster for wood stock. It has a guitar with a bird sitting on it.

                                      If these aren't already made please hold off until I can get this figured out. If they are made don't sweat it I'll look into pinning the plates.

                                      Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                                      Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


                                      Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                      Thomas Jefferson


                                      When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by a woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".



                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Harold Kyle <harold@...>
                                      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 12:58:02 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Plate walking

                                      OK I was confused by this thread, and talked with Matthew off-list.
                                      Apparently he has a Bunting base, which is 0.858, as we do mention on our
                                      website. That much is correct. I thought mistakenly he was referring to our
                                      Deep Relief base. He is also apparently ordering 152SB steel backed plates
                                      but I can't see how they would be thicker than 0.060. He's going to test
                                      them with another measuring tool and report back.

                                      Sorry for the confusion!
                                      Harold

                                      On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Harold Kyle <harold@...> wrote:

                                      > Matthew:
                                      >
                                      > Our records show that you purchased KF152, which measures 0.060 but ships
                                      > with 0.004 film adhesive. This means the plate should measure 0.064 thick.
                                      > Is your plate transparent or does it have a rigid metal back? Transparent
                                      > means KF152.
                                      >
                                      > I couldn't find a base purchase under your name in our system, which I
                                      > would need to get the exact measurements of your base. I would be astonished
                                      > if we shipped a 0.8585" base, which is way out of spec. The actual thickness
                                      > should be 0.0853 +/- 0.001. Can you share with me the serial number stamped
                                      > on the side?
                                      >
                                      > I don't see reference to 0.858" as the base thickness on boxcarpress.com,
                                      > but I do see this height mentioned incorrectly on some other websites. I'll
                                      > write to them to clarify in order to avoid any future confusion. The correct
                                      > height is 0.853".
                                      >
                                      > Thanks
                                      > Harold
                                      >
                                      > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:40 AM, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...>wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Next time I'm there I'm going to bring my table top micrometer. It's an
                                      >> extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that's
                                      >> bothering me is we
                                      >> ordered the base ground to Boxcar's specs listed on their site, .858".
                                      >> The hand held dial caliper reads .8585". We measured the base and plate
                                      >> together while the base was locked in the chase, which was a bit tricky, but
                                      >> checked it a couple of times and got .922". Without actually measuring the
                                      >> plate alone that would mean the plate was .0635" - .064". Why would the
                                      >> plates be .004" higher than what's listed on the site for 152SB?
                                      >>
                                      >> ________________________________
                                      >>
                                      >> A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
                                      >> --Eric Holub, SF
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > ---
                                      > Boxcar Press
                                      > 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                      > Syracuse, NY 13204
                                      > www.boxcarpress.com
                                      >



                                      --
                                      ---
                                      Boxcar Press
                                      501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                      Syracuse, NY 13204
                                      www.boxcarpress.com


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • engrossersscript@aol.com
                                      I am in Houston, Tx =( ... From: Edgar Weber To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Dec 9, 2009 1:32 pm Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress]
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I am in Houston, Tx =(






                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Edgar Weber <elweber@...>
                                        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wed, Dec 9, 2009 1:32 pm
                                        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(




                                        Where are you?

                                        ________________________________
                                        From: "engrossersscript@..." <engrossersscript@...>
                                        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 8:02:43 AM
                                        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(



                                        I am helping a dear friend of mine do her invitation. We want to do letterpress (though I dnt have one I am able to use the ones at the Printing Museum and also a good friend of mine has two that are run with motors. I have never done anything like this before and I should of thought about this before offering. I know I need a plate, she also wants something embossed on them and we will also do the envelopes... . can ANY ONE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me with this project or give me any ideas? I have asked a few of the member of the Museum and noone has returned my emails or calls.... =( I have lots of time the wedding is not till next year but I want to start working on this asap so I dnt rush it! Any ideas or comments please feel free and thank you all talented printers =)

                                        Leenah
                                        www.thevintagehand. com

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Peter Fraterdeus
                                        Hi Leenah Don t know what the Museum offers, but it sounds to me like you should consider taking a couple of classes to figure out what you ve gotten yourself
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi Leenah

                                          Don't know what the Museum offers, but it sounds to me like you should
                                          consider taking a couple of classes to figure out what you've gotten
                                          yourself into. Your enthusiasm is commendable, but unfortunately, it
                                          takes a good bit more than that to be a printer. :-)

                                          Embossing requires two 'plates' -- dies, really, which have to be
                                          perfectly matched and registered.
                                          It's possible (see John Henry's demos here and there) to make the
                                          'positive' die with a fast setting epoxy, but again, requires a good
                                          bit of trial and error, no doubt.

                                          To ask members of the Museum to volunteer to "help", which means
                                          essentially taking you on as an apprentice, might just possibly be a
                                          bit too much to ask... which may perhaps be why you're not getting a
                                          lot of response...

                                          There's an enormous amount of very good information available online,
                                          including the archives of this list, briarpress.org, etc etc etc. Many
                                          of us began without any instruction at all, except that provided by
                                          the laws of physics, common sense, and the odd golden nugget provided
                                          by those who rarely repeat themselves...

                                          The first 'rule' of asking for help is to do your homework, and ask
                                          specific, well-considered questions!
                                          (That's true of anything, whether letterpress, web design, rocket
                                          science, or quantum theory!)

                                          So, perhaps either take some classes, or get ready to pay somebody to
                                          do the printing, and ask nicely if you can watch while they do it!

                                          Good luck!

                                          :-)

                                          PF

                                          PS, finally, "Letterpress" is a noun, there's a verb for what it does,
                                          which is "Printing" ;-)



                                          On 9 Dec 2009, at 3:39 PM, engrossersscript@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: "engrossersscript@..." <engrossersscript@...>
                                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 8:02:43 AM
                                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I am helping a dear friend of mine do her invitation. We want to do
                                          > letterpress (though I dnt have one I am able to use the ones at the
                                          > Printing Museum and also a good friend of mine has two that are run
                                          > with motors. I have never done anything like this before and I
                                          > should of thought about this before offering. I know I need a plate,
                                          > she also wants something embossed on them and we will also do the
                                          > envelopes... . can ANY ONE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me with this
                                          > project or give me any ideas? I have asked a few of the member of
                                          > the Museum and noone has returned my emails or calls.... =( I have
                                          > lots of time the wedding is not till next year but I want to start
                                          > working on this asap so I dnt rush it! Any ideas or comments please
                                          > feel free and thank you all talented printers =)
                                          >
                                          > Leenah
                                          > www.thevintagehand. com

                                          Peter Fraterdeus
                                          Exquisite Letterpress from Slow Print Studios
                                          http://slowprint.com/
                                        • Harold Kyle
                                          I should mention the plates can move out of register on Vandercooks as well. Cylinder presses can move steel backed plates out of register during deep
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 9, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I should mention the plates can move out of register on Vandercooks as well.
                                            Cylinder presses can move steel backed plates out of register during deep
                                            impression printing. The problem is that magnetic bases hold the plates down
                                            but don't resist shearing well. This was the genesis for our Boxcar Base and
                                            plastic backed plates in the first place ten years ago. Since many printers
                                            resort to adhesives to hold their plates in place (even on Bunting Bases),
                                            we figured we could just do away with the magnet and use an adhesive that
                                            works--one that resists shearing. We run our plastic backed plates on a
                                            Heidelberg Cylinder (long multi-color runs) and on Vandercooks and have
                                            never had this problem.

                                            I hope this helps,
                                            Harold


                                            On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Scott Rubel <scott@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            >
                                            > What kinds of forces does it take to make a steel plate on a Bunting
                                            > base move? Even with all the relational physics answers posted earlier,
                                            > once the plate gets over a few inches I can't imagine how it could move.
                                            >
                                            > --Scott
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Harold Kyle wrote:
                                            > > OK I was confused by this thread, and talked with Matthew off-list.
                                            > > Apparently he has a Bunting base, which is 0.858, as we do mention on our
                                            > > website. That much is correct. I thought mistakenly he was referring to
                                            > our
                                            > > Deep Relief base. He is also apparently ordering 152SB steel backed
                                            > plates
                                            > > but I can't see how they would be thicker than 0.060. He's going to test
                                            > > them with another measuring tool and report back.
                                            > >
                                            > > Sorry for the confusion!
                                            > > Harold
                                            > >
                                            > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:34 AM, Harold Kyle <harold@...<harold%40boxcarpress.com>>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >> Matthew:
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Our records show that you purchased KF152, which measures 0.060 but
                                            > ships
                                            > >> with 0.004 film adhesive. This means the plate should measure 0.064
                                            > thick.
                                            > >> Is your plate transparent or does it have a rigid metal back?
                                            > Transparent
                                            > >> means KF152.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> I couldn't find a base purchase under your name in our system, which I
                                            > >> would need to get the exact measurements of your base. I would be
                                            > astonished
                                            > >> if we shipped a 0.8585" base, which is way out of spec. The actual
                                            > thickness
                                            > >> should be 0.0853 +/- 0.001. Can you share with me the serial number
                                            > stamped
                                            > >> on the side?
                                            > >>
                                            > >> I don't see reference to 0.858" as the base thickness on
                                            > boxcarpress.com,
                                            > >> but I do see this height mentioned incorrectly on some other websites.
                                            > I'll
                                            > >> write to them to clarify in order to avoid any future confusion. The
                                            > correct
                                            > >> height is 0.853".
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Thanks
                                            > >> Harold
                                            > >>
                                            > >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:40 AM, matthew lamoureux <lamsland@...<lamsland%40yahoo.com>
                                            > >wrote:
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >>> Next time I'm there I'm going to bring my table top micrometer. It's an
                                            > >>> extremely precise dial caliper mounted on a stand. The thing that's
                                            > >>> bothering me is we
                                            > >>> ordered the base ground to Boxcar's specs listed on their site, .858".
                                            > >>> The hand held dial caliper reads .8585". We measured the base and plate
                                            > >>> together while the base was locked in the chase, which was a bit
                                            > tricky, but
                                            > >>> checked it a couple of times and got .922". Without actually measuring
                                            > the
                                            > >>> plate alone that would mean the plate was .0635" - .064". Why would the
                                            > >>> plates be .004" higher than what's listed on the site for 152SB?
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>> ________________________________
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>> A thinner plate ia indicated; If you are using a 152 go to a 145.
                                            > >>> --Eric Holub, SF
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>
                                            > >> --
                                            >
                                            > >> ---
                                            > >> Boxcar Press
                                            > >> 501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                            > >> Syracuse, NY 13204
                                            > >> www.boxcarpress.com
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            >
                                            >



                                            --
                                            ---
                                            Boxcar Press
                                            501 W. Fayette St. #222
                                            Syracuse, NY 13204
                                            www.boxcarpress.com


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Ph.D.
                                            A couple of years ago, one of my students wanted to try embossing. We had a 1/4-inch copper die made at Owosso, then we used auto body filler (Bondo) to make a
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 10, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              A couple of years ago, one of my students wanted to try
                                              embossing. We had a 1/4-inch copper die made at Owosso,
                                              then we used auto body filler (Bondo) to make a counter
                                              die. Everything worked the first time, and the embosssing
                                              looked great.

                                              --Ph. D.


                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Peter Fraterdeus
                                              To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 6:39 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(


                                              Embossing requires two 'plates' -- dies, really, which have to be
                                              perfectly matched and registered.
                                              It's possible (see John Henry's demos here and there) to make the
                                              'positive' die with a fast setting epoxy, but again, requires a good
                                              bit of trial and error, no doubt.




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • engrossersscript@aol.com
                                              Thanks Peter for the kind email. English is my second language so thanks for the lesson as well. Some people have been to help me through this group. Yes u are
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 10, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Thanks Peter for the kind email. English is my second language so thanks for the lesson as well. Some people have been to help me through this group. Yes u are right perhaps it was too much for the members to ask for help.

                                                Leenah
                                                Houston, Tx



                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Peter Fraterdeus <peterf@...>
                                                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Wed, Dec 9, 2009 5:39 pm
                                                Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(




                                                Hi Leenah

                                                Don't know what the Museum offers, but it sounds to me like you should
                                                consider taking a couple of classes to figure out what you've gotten
                                                yourself into. Your enthusiasm is commendable, but unfortunately, it
                                                takes a good bit more than that to be a printer. :-)

                                                Embossing requires two 'plates' -- dies, really, which have to be
                                                perfectly matched and registered.
                                                It's possible (see John Henry's demos here and there) to make the
                                                'positive' die with a fast setting epoxy, but again, requires a good
                                                bit of trial and error, no doubt.

                                                To ask members of the Museum to volunteer to "help", which means
                                                essentially taking you on as an apprentice, might just possibly be a
                                                bit too much to ask... which may perhaps be why you're not getting a
                                                lot of response...

                                                There's an enormous amount of very good information available online,
                                                including the archives of this list, briarpress.org, etc etc etc. Many
                                                of us began without any instruction at all, except that provided by
                                                the laws of physics, common sense, and the odd golden nugget provided
                                                by those who rarely repeat themselves...

                                                The first 'rule' of asking for help is to do your homework, and ask
                                                specific, well-considered questions!
                                                (That's true of anything, whether letterpress, web design, rocket
                                                science, or quantum theory!)

                                                So, perhaps either take some classes, or get ready to pay somebody to
                                                do the printing, and ask nicely if you can watch while they do it!

                                                Good luck!

                                                :-)

                                                PF

                                                PS, finally, "Letterpress" is a noun, there's a verb for what it does,
                                                which is "Printing" ;-)

                                                On 9 Dec 2009, at 3:39 PM, engrossersscript@... wrote:
                                                >
                                                > From: "engrossersscript@..." <engrossersscript@...>
                                                > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 8:02:43 AM
                                                > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Help with Paper Stock and Letterpressing! =(
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > I am helping a dear friend of mine do her invitation. We want to do
                                                > letterpress (though I dnt have one I am able to use the ones at the
                                                > Printing Museum and also a good friend of mine has two that are run
                                                > with motors. I have never done anything like this before and I
                                                > should of thought about this before offering. I know I need a plate,
                                                > she also wants something embossed on them and we will also do the
                                                > envelopes... . can ANY ONE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me with this
                                                > project or give me any ideas? I have asked a few of the member of
                                                > the Museum and noone has returned my emails or calls.... =( I have
                                                > lots of time the wedding is not till next year but I want to start
                                                > working on this asap so I dnt rush it! Any ideas or comments please
                                                > feel free and thank you all talented printers =)
                                                >
                                                > Leenah
                                                > www.thevintagehand. com

                                                Peter Fraterdeus
                                                Exquisite Letterpress from Slow Print Studios
                                                http://slowprint.com/







                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • matthew lamoureux
                                                Here s photos of the caliper measurements and repacking results. It s just the first few photos.
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jan 2, 2010
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Here's photos of the caliper measurements and repacking results. It's just the first few photos.

                                                  http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb91/Lammys_album/Letterpress/

                                                  The basic conclusion I've come to is based on the amount of packing I need to get a good solid print the plates and the bases are just fine. I'm thinking I can't put enough pressure on the plate and base together to get a good reading, otherwise I have no idea why it reads so high. With enough pressure I got the bases and plates to read .858 and .060 respectively. The final reading for the packing and stock was .048, just .001 over what it should be. Even at the correct height of everything I still have the issue with the plate sliding on the base. Taping all four sides of the plate to the chase/ base/ furniture stopped this.

                                                  Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                                                  Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


                                                  Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                                  Thomas Jefferson


                                                  When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by a woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".
                                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.