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Re: [PPLetterpress] Counters not washing out

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  • Ed Inman
    It could also result from either your negatives not being opaque enough or insufficient washout time. Sometimes it takes some trial and error to resolve, as
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
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      It could also result from either your negatives not being opaque enough or insufficient washout time.
      Sometimes it takes some trial and error to resolve, as every system is different.
      good luck,
      Ed

      -----Original Message-----
      >From: cmcgarr1957 <casey@...>
      >Sent: Sep 12, 2009 10:46 AM
      >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Counters not washing out
      >
      >Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long pre exposure of my deep relief plate?
      >
      >Casey
      >iLP
      >
      >
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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      >
    • bielerpr
      Casey That would generally be the case (in theory). If you are using relatively new 152 mm plate stock, however, note that they might have changed the formula.
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
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        Casey

        That would generally be the case (in theory). If you are using relatively new 152 mm plate stock, however, note that they might have changed the formula. The steel-backed stuff I am now getting (since a couple of months ago) has a much shorter exposure, much longer washout than previously.

        Only way to work it out is test the exposure with a Stouffer 21-step gauge and run the washout until the plate floor is clean. I think the new formulation is a better one but I lost a lot of plate material and time working it out when the first batch came in.

        This is the second time in recent years that Toyobo has changed the formula and not bothered to inform their distributors (or if they did, their distributors did not bother to inform their clients).

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "cmcgarr1957" <casey@...> wrote:
        >
        > Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long pre exposure of my deep relief plate?
        >
        > Casey
        > iLP
        >
      • cmcgarr1957
        Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I ll do a longer washout and see if that helps. Earlier I didn t do a pre exposure and it helped a little. However
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
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          Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I'll do a longer washout and see if that helps. Earlier I didn't do a pre exposure and it helped a little. However some of the counters were still not washed out enough. I'll do another test and see what follows.

          I'll post the results.

          Thanks again for the help.

          Casey
          iLP
        • jasonmacdallas
          Casey, I ve experienced a little bit of the same problem lately (and I believe we are getting material from the same vendor here in Texas.) So, it s certainly
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
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            Casey,

            I've experienced a little bit of the same problem lately (and I believe we are getting material from the same vendor here in Texas.) So, it's certainly possible that there has been a formula change in KF152. I've noticed that the problem goes away when the water is cleaner (after lots of platemaking it gets milky and that is when i see more of a problem, so i just change the water during longer sessions.)

            Jason McDaniel
            Missing Q Press

            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "cmcgarr1957" <casey@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I'll do a longer washout and see if that helps. Earlier I didn't do a pre exposure and it helped a little. However some of the counters were still not washed out enough. I'll do another test and see what follows.
            >
            > I'll post the results.
            >
            > Thanks again for the help.
            >
            > Casey
            > iLP
            >
          • cmcgarr1957
            I bumped up the washout to 6 minutes and to work. 1 minute more than usual seems like a lot. Casey iLP
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
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              I bumped up the washout to 6 minutes and to work. 1 minute more than usual seems like a lot.

              Casey
              iLP


              > Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long pre exposure of my deep relief plate?
              >
              > Casey
              > iLP
              >
            • Harold Kyle
              Do you have a way to check the density of your films? This problem can also happen because the black isn t dense enough in your film negatives. If not, the
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
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                Do you have a way to check the density of your films? This problem can also
                happen because the black isn't dense enough in your film negatives. If not,
                the down-and-dirty test is: can you see an overhead light through the neg if
                you hold it up above your head? If you see the lightbulb or lightbulb
                filament through the film it's not dense enough.
                Hope this helps,
                Harold

                --
                ---
                Boxcar Press
                501 W. Fayette St. #222
                Syracuse, NY 13204
                www.boxcarpress.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • cmcgarr1957
                Kyle, I don t have way to check the density of the film an the film output bureau has been pretty consistent. I ll ask on Monday because this maybe the
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 13, 2009
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                  Kyle,

                  I don't have way to check the density of the film an the film output bureau has been pretty consistent. I'll ask on Monday because this maybe the problem. The longer washout helped but the counters are still not open enough.

                  Casey
                  iLP
                • typetom@aol.com
                  Hi Casey, I have not worked with polymer plates that involve back exposure, but it sounds like over-exposure to me. For my steel-backed plates, the washout
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 13, 2009
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                    Hi Casey,
                    I have not worked with polymer plates that involve back exposure, but it
                    sounds like over-exposure to me. For my steel-backed plates, the washout time
                    is critical only when it is too long - when the time in the water allows
                    the base of the polymer to absorb too much water and thus allows the
                    hardened surface to separate and move or break off. More time in washout does not
                    dissolve material that has been hardened.

                    Too much exposure time, however, will harden more of the base and can fill
                    counters or white lines in a reverse image, because the base material
                    swells out from the face of the exposed image as it has time to harden more of
                    the base polymer, as the UV light continues to penetrate indirectly to areas
                    normally protected by the negative - the surface of a letter will look
                    correct, but the sides and counters will be swollen if it is over-exposed.

                    Could be emulsion density, but it is possible to work around even weak
                    emulsion by under-exposure.
                    Best wishes,
                    Tom

                    Tom Parson/ Now It's Up To You
                    157 S Logan, Denver CO 80209
                    (303) 777-8951 home & printshop
                    (720) 480-5358 cellphone
                    _typetom@..._ (mailto:typetom@...)



                    In a message dated 9/13/2009 8:20:14 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
                    casey@... writes:

                    Kyle,

                    I don't have way to check the density of the film an the film output
                    bureau has been pretty consistent. I'll ask on Monday because this maybe the
                    problem. The longer washout helped but the counters are still not open enough.

                    Casey
                    iLP











                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Austin Jones
                    From what I am reading of this thread, I can only conclude that there are many people out there who are using photopolymer on a daily basis. This leads to the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 13, 2009
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                      From what I am reading of this thread, I can only conclude that there are
                      many people out there who are using photopolymer on a daily basis. This
                      leads to the common practice of developing a procedure which works. The
                      problem with this practice is that things change which you are not aware of.
                      I do not work much with film today but when I did the slightest change in
                      any of the steps could cause major changes in the outcome. Film, developer,
                      water, as well as environment can have a major impact on the total process.

                      I would suggest that even though you are getting your negs from the same
                      service, it is highly likely that they have changed suppliers or their
                      supplier may have changed their supplier. All of the other things involved
                      should be considered one at a time.

                      When a procedure works then stops working it is sometimes difficult to
                      remember how the procedure was developed. It is just done by habit and you
                      don't remember why some of the steps are important or how you came up with
                      that conclusion.

                      I am just suggesting that the procedure be revisited and considered step by
                      step and make no assumptions. Only make one change at a time to eliminate
                      possibilities.

                      I know film processing is an art which has been mechanized to the point that
                      no one needs to make note today.

                      I hope this is a help in finding the cause of the change.

                      tks

                      Austin Jones
                      prints by AJ
                      austin@...
                      http://printsbyaj.com
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "cmcgarr1957" <casey@...>
                      To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:19 AM
                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Counters not washing out


                      > Kyle,
                      >
                      > I don't have way to check the density of the film an the film output
                      > bureau has been pretty consistent. I'll ask on Monday because this maybe
                      > the problem. The longer washout helped but the counters are still not open
                      > enough.
                      >
                      > Casey
                      > iLP
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • cmcgarr1957
                      Thanks Austin, very good points. I visited with the film output business and their densities were light reading around 2.5. They output new film and I m back
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 14, 2009
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                        Thanks Austin, very good points.

                        I visited with the film output business and their densities were light reading around 2.5. They output new film and I'm back in business making good plates.

                        Thanks for all the recommendations everyone gave me.

                        Casey
                        iLP
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