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Re: [PPLetterpress] Counters not washing out

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  • Peter Fraterdeus
    Hi Casey ... Sorta sounds like a possible cause. I had all kinds of trouble with the 152 plates _before_ learning about preexposure from the back. And I could
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
      Hi Casey

      On 12 Sep 2009, at 10:46 AM, cmcgarr1957 wrote:

      > Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long
      > pre exposure of my deep relief plate?

      Sorta sounds like a possible cause.
      I had all kinds of trouble with the 152 plates _before_ learning about
      preexposure from the back.
      And I could see how you'd have fill-in if you back-expose and then the
      top exposure adds through diffusion to the base at the counters...
      since there's exposure all around it, it makes sense that the
      'shoulders' into the counter will meet higher than on the outer
      contour of the glyph...

      I haven't been using 152 plates for quite a while though.
      At first I assumed I'd get nicer (steeper) shoulders, like on foundry
      type, but it doesn't seem to be.
      Also the thicker plates are a hell of a lot more expensive.

      So, I use .020 worth of underlay on my base, and use the thinner plates.

      Are you using the thicker for a special case, or in general?

      Cheers

      Peter
      >

      Peter Fraterdeus
      http://slowprint.com/
    • Ed Inman
      It could also result from either your negatives not being opaque enough or insufficient washout time. Sometimes it takes some trial and error to resolve, as
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
        It could also result from either your negatives not being opaque enough or insufficient washout time.
        Sometimes it takes some trial and error to resolve, as every system is different.
        good luck,
        Ed

        -----Original Message-----
        >From: cmcgarr1957 <casey@...>
        >Sent: Sep 12, 2009 10:46 AM
        >To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [PPLetterpress] Counters not washing out
        >
        >Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long pre exposure of my deep relief plate?
        >
        >Casey
        >iLP
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • bielerpr
        Casey That would generally be the case (in theory). If you are using relatively new 152 mm plate stock, however, note that they might have changed the formula.
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
          Casey

          That would generally be the case (in theory). If you are using relatively new 152 mm plate stock, however, note that they might have changed the formula. The steel-backed stuff I am now getting (since a couple of months ago) has a much shorter exposure, much longer washout than previously.

          Only way to work it out is test the exposure with a Stouffer 21-step gauge and run the washout until the plate floor is clean. I think the new formulation is a better one but I lost a lot of plate material and time working it out when the first batch came in.

          This is the second time in recent years that Toyobo has changed the formula and not bothered to inform their distributors (or if they did, their distributors did not bother to inform their clients).

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "cmcgarr1957" <casey@...> wrote:
          >
          > Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long pre exposure of my deep relief plate?
          >
          > Casey
          > iLP
          >
        • cmcgarr1957
          Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I ll do a longer washout and see if that helps. Earlier I didn t do a pre exposure and it helped a little. However
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
            Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I'll do a longer washout and see if that helps. Earlier I didn't do a pre exposure and it helped a little. However some of the counters were still not washed out enough. I'll do another test and see what follows.

            I'll post the results.

            Thanks again for the help.

            Casey
            iLP
          • jasonmacdallas
            Casey, I ve experienced a little bit of the same problem lately (and I believe we are getting material from the same vendor here in Texas.) So, it s certainly
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
              Casey,

              I've experienced a little bit of the same problem lately (and I believe we are getting material from the same vendor here in Texas.) So, it's certainly possible that there has been a formula change in KF152. I've noticed that the problem goes away when the water is cleaner (after lots of platemaking it gets milky and that is when i see more of a problem, so i just change the water during longer sessions.)

              Jason McDaniel
              Missing Q Press

              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "cmcgarr1957" <casey@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I'll do a longer washout and see if that helps. Earlier I didn't do a pre exposure and it helped a little. However some of the counters were still not washed out enough. I'll do another test and see what follows.
              >
              > I'll post the results.
              >
              > Thanks again for the help.
              >
              > Casey
              > iLP
              >
            • cmcgarr1957
              I bumped up the washout to 6 minutes and to work. 1 minute more than usual seems like a lot. Casey iLP
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
                I bumped up the washout to 6 minutes and to work. 1 minute more than usual seems like a lot.

                Casey
                iLP


                > Counters are not washing out deep enough. Is that due to too long pre exposure of my deep relief plate?
                >
                > Casey
                > iLP
                >
              • Harold Kyle
                Do you have a way to check the density of your films? This problem can also happen because the black isn t dense enough in your film negatives. If not, the
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 12, 2009
                  Do you have a way to check the density of your films? This problem can also
                  happen because the black isn't dense enough in your film negatives. If not,
                  the down-and-dirty test is: can you see an overhead light through the neg if
                  you hold it up above your head? If you see the lightbulb or lightbulb
                  filament through the film it's not dense enough.
                  Hope this helps,
                  Harold

                  --
                  ---
                  Boxcar Press
                  501 W. Fayette St. #222
                  Syracuse, NY 13204
                  www.boxcarpress.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • cmcgarr1957
                  Kyle, I don t have way to check the density of the film an the film output bureau has been pretty consistent. I ll ask on Monday because this maybe the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 13, 2009
                    Kyle,

                    I don't have way to check the density of the film an the film output bureau has been pretty consistent. I'll ask on Monday because this maybe the problem. The longer washout helped but the counters are still not open enough.

                    Casey
                    iLP
                  • typetom@aol.com
                    Hi Casey, I have not worked with polymer plates that involve back exposure, but it sounds like over-exposure to me. For my steel-backed plates, the washout
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 13, 2009
                      Hi Casey,
                      I have not worked with polymer plates that involve back exposure, but it
                      sounds like over-exposure to me. For my steel-backed plates, the washout time
                      is critical only when it is too long - when the time in the water allows
                      the base of the polymer to absorb too much water and thus allows the
                      hardened surface to separate and move or break off. More time in washout does not
                      dissolve material that has been hardened.

                      Too much exposure time, however, will harden more of the base and can fill
                      counters or white lines in a reverse image, because the base material
                      swells out from the face of the exposed image as it has time to harden more of
                      the base polymer, as the UV light continues to penetrate indirectly to areas
                      normally protected by the negative - the surface of a letter will look
                      correct, but the sides and counters will be swollen if it is over-exposed.

                      Could be emulsion density, but it is possible to work around even weak
                      emulsion by under-exposure.
                      Best wishes,
                      Tom

                      Tom Parson/ Now It's Up To You
                      157 S Logan, Denver CO 80209
                      (303) 777-8951 home & printshop
                      (720) 480-5358 cellphone
                      _typetom@..._ (mailto:typetom@...)



                      In a message dated 9/13/2009 8:20:14 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
                      casey@... writes:

                      Kyle,

                      I don't have way to check the density of the film an the film output
                      bureau has been pretty consistent. I'll ask on Monday because this maybe the
                      problem. The longer washout helped but the counters are still not open enough.

                      Casey
                      iLP











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Austin Jones
                      From what I am reading of this thread, I can only conclude that there are many people out there who are using photopolymer on a daily basis. This leads to the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 13, 2009
                        From what I am reading of this thread, I can only conclude that there are
                        many people out there who are using photopolymer on a daily basis. This
                        leads to the common practice of developing a procedure which works. The
                        problem with this practice is that things change which you are not aware of.
                        I do not work much with film today but when I did the slightest change in
                        any of the steps could cause major changes in the outcome. Film, developer,
                        water, as well as environment can have a major impact on the total process.

                        I would suggest that even though you are getting your negs from the same
                        service, it is highly likely that they have changed suppliers or their
                        supplier may have changed their supplier. All of the other things involved
                        should be considered one at a time.

                        When a procedure works then stops working it is sometimes difficult to
                        remember how the procedure was developed. It is just done by habit and you
                        don't remember why some of the steps are important or how you came up with
                        that conclusion.

                        I am just suggesting that the procedure be revisited and considered step by
                        step and make no assumptions. Only make one change at a time to eliminate
                        possibilities.

                        I know film processing is an art which has been mechanized to the point that
                        no one needs to make note today.

                        I hope this is a help in finding the cause of the change.

                        tks

                        Austin Jones
                        prints by AJ
                        austin@...
                        http://printsbyaj.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "cmcgarr1957" <casey@...>
                        To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:19 AM
                        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Counters not washing out


                        > Kyle,
                        >
                        > I don't have way to check the density of the film an the film output
                        > bureau has been pretty consistent. I'll ask on Monday because this maybe
                        > the problem. The longer washout helped but the counters are still not open
                        > enough.
                        >
                        > Casey
                        > iLP
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • cmcgarr1957
                        Thanks Austin, very good points. I visited with the film output business and their densities were light reading around 2.5. They output new film and I m back
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 14, 2009
                          Thanks Austin, very good points.

                          I visited with the film output business and their densities were light reading around 2.5. They output new film and I'm back in business making good plates.

                          Thanks for all the recommendations everyone gave me.

                          Casey
                          iLP
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