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Re: Digital as a Means to an End...

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  • Barbara Hauser
    Yes, Michael, that s how I do it, too. I set a few lines in metal and then type the same lines digitally. Then I fiddle with fractional point sizes and leading
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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      Yes, Michael, that's how I do it, too. I set a few lines in metal and then type the same lines digitally. Then I fiddle with fractional point sizes and leading until my digital lines are exactly the same size as the metal ones. If I don't happen to have a digital face that matches the metal face I'm working with, I just pick something close since it's only the size I'm concerned with. I may end up making a few adjustments, but it helps tremendously to have something to start with.

      rdziesing, it may be true that in some cases it's only the typesetter herself who cares about the hours slumped over a table, but whenever I have invited the uninitiated to observe a little of what I do, they invariably are captivated. A conversation invariably ensues about how important the spread of information must be for this type of work to have been carried out, on a large scale, for five centuries.

      I truly appreciate your frustration and impatience with handsetting a simple name and address -- it's not for everyone, to be sure. But me, I am happy -- relieved, actually -- to get my eyes off a flat, glowing screen and make intimate physical contact with the words I'm printing. I find it extremely relaxing -- a welcome respite from all of the other things in my life that I must rush through. But then again I'm just a hobby printer. You're right, if I did it for a living it would be digital typesetting all the way.

      Barbara


      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Babcock" <mjb@...> wrote:

      . . . Michael Russem / Kat Ran Press gave an interesting talk several years ago at the North East Kingdom Typographic Congress at Stinehour Press in Lunenburg where he outlined his method of laying out books digitally for eventual Monotype composition by the Bixler's.

      If I recall, he did trial sets to determine the built-in fit of any give metal face he was planning to have comp set in and then did digital sets to determine what point size and tracking he needed to set the digital in to give an accurate representation of eventual hot metal setting. Once those variables were arrived at and recorded, layout was simple and painless. And since the setting was in Monotype, any discrepancies once set could be corrected with relative ease. . . .


      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
      >
      > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
    • Austin Jones
      I really have to disagree with you on this one. There have always been artists and buyers interested in the process. There are buyers who are only interested
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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        I really have to disagree with you on this one. There have always been
        artists and buyers interested in the process. There are buyers who are only
        interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always been producers
        willing to give it to them. Just because there has always been a market for
        and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does not mean there is
        no market for the product which strives to maintain the process.

        As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the buyer with the
        product I have no problem. However, when there is an attempt to promote a
        product as something other than what it really is, I am prone to speak up.

        So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides, and historical
        reprints because there are people out there who can appreciate the
        difference in the product. If you don't want to do that, fine. But don't try
        to convince yourself or others that no one cares.

        tks

        Austin Jones
        prints by AJ
        austin@...
        http://printsbyaj.com
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
        To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


        > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you
        > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye
        > coordination.
        >
        > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product
        > at the most reasonable price possible?
        >
        > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time
        > I had any desire to do so.
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Steve Robison
        To use a metaphor... Some people walk Some people ride a bike Some people drive a car Some people take the train Some people fly Each process (method)
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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          To use a metaphor...

          Some people walk
          Some people ride a bike
          Some people drive a car
          Some people take the train
          Some people fly

          Each process (method) eventually gets you where you want to go, and each has it's own merits and limitations, followers and detractors.

          What's important for some is the journey, and for others the destination, and still others a little bit of both.

          Each printing method currently known has a similar spectrum of possibilities. Here are a few...

          Some people write(wrote) on clay tablets
          Some people write and draw with pencil
          Some people write and draw with pen and ink
          Some people draw on stones and etch images with acid
          Some people carve in metal to make grooves
          Some people carve in wood or linoleum to leave raised relief images
          Some people cast individual letters in metal type
          Some people make individual letter in wood type
          Some people hand set metal type and wood type
          Some people machine set metal type in full lines
          Some people draw by hand
          Some people print images letterpress using copper, zinc or magnesium plates
          Some people design and compose on the computer and print the images letterpress using etched copper, zinc, magnesium or photopolymer plates
          Some people take photographic images of their composition and use offset lithography to transfer those images on to paper
          Some people ditto
          Some people mimeograph
          Some people xerox or use high speed digital presses
          Some people use telepathy to transfer images from one mind to the other

          Which one of the above is the "best" method is determined by the practitioner and the end user and how they each want to enjoy the journey and/or get to the destination.

          That tension is always in flux. It is always dependent on context. It is always changing. It is the dance between the two that will determine what's best.

          Steve Robison
          The Robison Press
          Belmont, CA - 25 miles south of San Francisco
          robisonsteve@...


          --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Austin Jones <austin@...> wrote:

          > From: Austin Jones <austin@...>
          > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:54 AM
          > I really have to disagree with you on
          > this one. There have always been
          > artists and buyers interested in the process. There are
          > buyers who are only
          > interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always
          > been producers
          > willing to give it to them. Just because there has always
          > been a market for
          > and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does
          > not mean there is
          > no market for the product which strives to maintain the
          > process.
          >
          > As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the
          > buyer with the
          > product I have no problem. However, when there is an
          > attempt to promote a
          > product as something other than what it really is, I am
          > prone to speak up.
          >
          > So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides,
          > and historical
          > reprints because there are people out there who can
          > appreciate the
          > difference in the product. If you don't want to do that,
          > fine. But don't try
          > to convince yourself or others that no one cares.
          >
          > tks
          >
          > Austin Jones
          > prints by AJ
          > austin@...
          > http://printsbyaj.com
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
          > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an
          > End...
          >
          >
          > > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares
          > about the hours you
          > > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and
          > cursing your hand eye
          > > coordination.
          > >
          > > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the
          > best possible product
          > > at the most reasonable price possible?
          > >
          > > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the
          > first and final time
          > > I had any desire to do so.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >     mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
        • Austin Jones
          Yep! You can please All of the People Some of the Time You can please Some of the People All of the Time But, You can t Please All of the People All of the
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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            Yep!

            You can please All of the People Some of the Time
            You can please Some of the People All of the Time
            But, You can't Please All of the People All of the Time.

            tks

            Austin Jones
            prints by AJ
            austin@...
            http://printsbyaj.com
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Steve Robison" <robisonsteve@...>
            To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:50 AM
            Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


            >
            > To use a metaphor...
            >
            > Some people walk
            > Some people ride a bike
            > Some people drive a car
            > Some people take the train
            > Some people fly
            >
            > Each process (method) eventually gets you where you want to go, and each
            > has it's own merits and limitations, followers and detractors.
            >
            > What's important for some is the journey, and for others the destination,
            > and still others a little bit of both.
            >
            > Each printing method currently known has a similar spectrum of
            > possibilities. Here are a few...
            >
            > Some people write(wrote) on clay tablets
            > Some people write and draw with pencil
            > Some people write and draw with pen and ink
            > Some people draw on stones and etch images with acid
            > Some people carve in metal to make grooves
            > Some people carve in wood or linoleum to leave raised relief images
            > Some people cast individual letters in metal type
            > Some people make individual letter in wood type
            > Some people hand set metal type and wood type
            > Some people machine set metal type in full lines
            > Some people draw by hand
            > Some people print images letterpress using copper, zinc or magnesium
            > plates
            > Some people design and compose on the computer and print the images
            > letterpress using etched copper, zinc, magnesium or photopolymer plates
            > Some people take photographic images of their composition and use offset
            > lithography to transfer those images on to paper
            > Some people ditto
            > Some people mimeograph
            > Some people xerox or use high speed digital presses
            > Some people use telepathy to transfer images from one mind to the other
            >
            > Which one of the above is the "best" method is determined by the
            > practitioner and the end user and how they each want to enjoy the journey
            > and/or get to the destination.
            >
            > That tension is always in flux. It is always dependent on context. It is
            > always changing. It is the dance between the two that will determine
            > what's best.
            >
            > Steve Robison
            > The Robison Press
            > Belmont, CA - 25 miles south of San Francisco
            > robisonsteve@...
            >
            >
            > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Austin Jones <austin@...> wrote:
            >
            >> From: Austin Jones <austin@...>
            >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
            >> To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:54 AM
            >> I really have to disagree with you on
            >> this one. There have always been
            >> artists and buyers interested in the process. There are
            >> buyers who are only
            >> interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always
            >> been producers
            >> willing to give it to them. Just because there has always
            >> been a market for
            >> and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does
            >> not mean there is
            >> no market for the product which strives to maintain the
            >> process.
            >>
            >> As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the
            >> buyer with the
            >> product I have no problem. However, when there is an
            >> attempt to promote a
            >> product as something other than what it really is, I am
            >> prone to speak up.
            >>
            >> So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides,
            >> and historical
            >> reprints because there are people out there who can
            >> appreciate the
            >> difference in the product. If you don't want to do that,
            >> fine. But don't try
            >> to convince yourself or others that no one cares.
            >>
            >> tks
            >>
            >> Austin Jones
            >> prints by AJ
            >> austin@...
            >> http://printsbyaj.com
            >> ----- Original Message -----
            >> From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
            >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
            >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an
            >> End...
            >>
            >>
            >> > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares
            >> about the hours you
            >> > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and
            >> cursing your hand eye
            >> > coordination.
            >> >
            >> > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the
            >> best possible product
            >> > at the most reasonable price possible?
            >> >
            >> > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the
            >> first and final time
            >> > I had any desire to do so.
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > ------------------------------------
            >> >
            >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >> mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Michael Babcock
            ... no strain; no cursing. and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can t to it, you can t know it. ... no. think again. rather,
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
              >
              > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.

              no strain; no cursing.

              and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can't to it, you can't know it.

              >
              > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?

              no. think again. rather, just think.

              >
              > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
              >

              lame. you clearly aren't cut out for letterpress. stop pretending now.
            • Gerald Lange
              I heard this on the radio the other day: All beer is good. But some beer is better. Some guy talking about his dad, who was involved in the business.
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                I heard this on the radio the other day: "All beer is good. But some
                beer is better." Some guy talking about his dad, who was involved in the
                business.

                Obviously folks value quality and the well crafted, and the better made.
                This is commonplace in everyday life, in our everyday values. I have
                never quite understood why there is such a particularly overt resistance
                to this though in the general communications that transverse the
                letterpress world.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                Michael Babcock wrote:
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                >
                >> You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                >>
                >
                > no strain; no cursing.
                >
                > and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can't to it, you can't know it.
                >
                >
                >> Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?
                >>
                >
                > no. think again. rather, just think.
                >
                >
                >> I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                >>
                >>
                >
                > lame. you clearly aren't cut out for letterpress. stop pretending now.
                >
                >
                >
              • leorawest
                Michael- Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you ve come to the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and those
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                  Michael-
                  Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                  Leora
                • Austin Jones
                  I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the various
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                    I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting
                    on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the
                    various wishes of different people. No one needs to be criticized for having
                    an opinion, no matter what the opinion. Lets all be the tolerant ones we
                    want everyone else to be.

                    tks

                    Austin Jones
                    prints by AJ
                    austin@...
                    http://printsbyaj.com
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
                    To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:52 PM
                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                    > Michael-
                    > Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to
                    > the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and
                    > those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                    > Leora
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Gerald Lange
                    In email discourse, it seems best if one takes the ancient Greek approach to logic/argument. One may, and should, question an idea that is perceived to be
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                      In email discourse, it seems best if one takes the ancient Greek approach to logic/argument. One may, and should, question an idea that is perceived to be errant, but one should never attack the character of the person who uttered it as a part of the questioning. That serves no fruitful purpose.

                      Gerald
                      http://bielerpress.blogspot.com

                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Austin Jones" <austin@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting
                      > on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the
                      > various wishes of different people. No one needs to be criticized for having
                      > an opinion, no matter what the opinion. Lets all be the tolerant ones we
                      > want everyone else to be.
                      >
                      > tks
                      >
                      > Austin Jones
                      > prints by AJ
                      > austin@...
                      > http://printsbyaj.com
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
                      > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:52 PM
                      > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
                      >
                      >
                      > > Michael-
                      > > Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to
                      > > the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and
                      > > those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                      > > Leora
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Casey McGarr
                      I felt the same way the first time I set some 10 pt type and it fell. Then picked the type back up and set it the correct way so it wouldn t fall. There is a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 4, 2009
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                        I felt the same way the first time I set some 10 pt type and it fell. Then picked the type back up and set it the correct way so it wouldn't fall.

                        There is a lot of satisfaction setting type by hand. Now granted I don't set every job I print by handset type but when I do its an accomplishment. Really an accomplishment when I have all the sorts, LOL.

                        However, thank you for photopolymer. What is not set by hand goes digital and I love it. Since I'm a graphic designer the opportunity to experiment with images and type is also very satisfying.

                        I have a few friends here in the Dallas area that only print photopolymer and another group of friends that handset the type. As long as we both get the final piece printed in the way it was envisioned then great for all of us.

                        Casey
                        http://www.inkylipspress.com


                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                        >
                        > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?
                        >
                        > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                        >
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