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Re: Digital as a Means to an End...

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  • rdziesing
    You know....I m just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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      You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.

      Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?

      I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
    • matthew lamoureux
      Preservation I would suppose depends an what you do with items while in your possession. A coin collector who simply throws all his coins into a tin can I
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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        Preservation I would suppose depends an what you do with items while in your possession. A coin collector who simply throws all his coins into a tin can I would not say is preserving them. One who seals them in the plastic bags, marks and labels then and keeps record of what history he knows of them would in my opinion be preserving them.

        same holds true for anything, now where to find a plastic bag big enough to seal my Golding into ;)

        Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
        Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


        Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
        Thomas Jefferson


        When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".




        ________________________________
        From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2009 1:04:18 AM
        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


        Yes, one should use the best tools available to them, and while it likely not a good idea to hold hands with the dead (which lots of folks seem to like to do)–"they might not appreciate it," as the saying goes—it cannot hurt in any way to have a thorough knowledge of where we came from and how it was done.

        I'm not into the acquisition of discarded material and equipment per se myself but I do highly appreciate their preservation. Though I doubt that just have this stuff around in your basement or garage or whatever actually allows one to proclaim they are preserving it. Coin collectors acquire old coins, are they preserving them? in most cases, not really, they are simply possessing them until they pass from their ownership.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress. blogspot. com

        >
        > If you think for a minute that those who came before us would not have used this technique as an aide your kidding yourself. It wasn't available to them though so they had no choice.
        >
        > As the old adage goes. . . . work smarter not harder.
        >
        > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
        > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
        >







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Barbara Hauser
        Yes, Michael, that s how I do it, too. I set a few lines in metal and then type the same lines digitally. Then I fiddle with fractional point sizes and leading
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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          Yes, Michael, that's how I do it, too. I set a few lines in metal and then type the same lines digitally. Then I fiddle with fractional point sizes and leading until my digital lines are exactly the same size as the metal ones. If I don't happen to have a digital face that matches the metal face I'm working with, I just pick something close since it's only the size I'm concerned with. I may end up making a few adjustments, but it helps tremendously to have something to start with.

          rdziesing, it may be true that in some cases it's only the typesetter herself who cares about the hours slumped over a table, but whenever I have invited the uninitiated to observe a little of what I do, they invariably are captivated. A conversation invariably ensues about how important the spread of information must be for this type of work to have been carried out, on a large scale, for five centuries.

          I truly appreciate your frustration and impatience with handsetting a simple name and address -- it's not for everyone, to be sure. But me, I am happy -- relieved, actually -- to get my eyes off a flat, glowing screen and make intimate physical contact with the words I'm printing. I find it extremely relaxing -- a welcome respite from all of the other things in my life that I must rush through. But then again I'm just a hobby printer. You're right, if I did it for a living it would be digital typesetting all the way.

          Barbara


          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Babcock" <mjb@...> wrote:

          . . . Michael Russem / Kat Ran Press gave an interesting talk several years ago at the North East Kingdom Typographic Congress at Stinehour Press in Lunenburg where he outlined his method of laying out books digitally for eventual Monotype composition by the Bixler's.

          If I recall, he did trial sets to determine the built-in fit of any give metal face he was planning to have comp set in and then did digital sets to determine what point size and tracking he needed to set the digital in to give an accurate representation of eventual hot metal setting. Once those variables were arrived at and recorded, layout was simple and painless. And since the setting was in Monotype, any discrepancies once set could be corrected with relative ease. . . .


          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
          >
          > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
        • Austin Jones
          I really have to disagree with you on this one. There have always been artists and buyers interested in the process. There are buyers who are only interested
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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            I really have to disagree with you on this one. There have always been
            artists and buyers interested in the process. There are buyers who are only
            interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always been producers
            willing to give it to them. Just because there has always been a market for
            and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does not mean there is
            no market for the product which strives to maintain the process.

            As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the buyer with the
            product I have no problem. However, when there is an attempt to promote a
            product as something other than what it really is, I am prone to speak up.

            So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides, and historical
            reprints because there are people out there who can appreciate the
            difference in the product. If you don't want to do that, fine. But don't try
            to convince yourself or others that no one cares.

            tks

            Austin Jones
            prints by AJ
            austin@...
            http://printsbyaj.com
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
            To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


            > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you
            > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye
            > coordination.
            >
            > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product
            > at the most reasonable price possible?
            >
            > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time
            > I had any desire to do so.
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Steve Robison
            To use a metaphor... Some people walk Some people ride a bike Some people drive a car Some people take the train Some people fly Each process (method)
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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              To use a metaphor...

              Some people walk
              Some people ride a bike
              Some people drive a car
              Some people take the train
              Some people fly

              Each process (method) eventually gets you where you want to go, and each has it's own merits and limitations, followers and detractors.

              What's important for some is the journey, and for others the destination, and still others a little bit of both.

              Each printing method currently known has a similar spectrum of possibilities. Here are a few...

              Some people write(wrote) on clay tablets
              Some people write and draw with pencil
              Some people write and draw with pen and ink
              Some people draw on stones and etch images with acid
              Some people carve in metal to make grooves
              Some people carve in wood or linoleum to leave raised relief images
              Some people cast individual letters in metal type
              Some people make individual letter in wood type
              Some people hand set metal type and wood type
              Some people machine set metal type in full lines
              Some people draw by hand
              Some people print images letterpress using copper, zinc or magnesium plates
              Some people design and compose on the computer and print the images letterpress using etched copper, zinc, magnesium or photopolymer plates
              Some people take photographic images of their composition and use offset lithography to transfer those images on to paper
              Some people ditto
              Some people mimeograph
              Some people xerox or use high speed digital presses
              Some people use telepathy to transfer images from one mind to the other

              Which one of the above is the "best" method is determined by the practitioner and the end user and how they each want to enjoy the journey and/or get to the destination.

              That tension is always in flux. It is always dependent on context. It is always changing. It is the dance between the two that will determine what's best.

              Steve Robison
              The Robison Press
              Belmont, CA - 25 miles south of San Francisco
              robisonsteve@...


              --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Austin Jones <austin@...> wrote:

              > From: Austin Jones <austin@...>
              > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
              > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:54 AM
              > I really have to disagree with you on
              > this one. There have always been
              > artists and buyers interested in the process. There are
              > buyers who are only
              > interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always
              > been producers
              > willing to give it to them. Just because there has always
              > been a market for
              > and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does
              > not mean there is
              > no market for the product which strives to maintain the
              > process.
              >
              > As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the
              > buyer with the
              > product I have no problem. However, when there is an
              > attempt to promote a
              > product as something other than what it really is, I am
              > prone to speak up.
              >
              > So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides,
              > and historical
              > reprints because there are people out there who can
              > appreciate the
              > difference in the product. If you don't want to do that,
              > fine. But don't try
              > to convince yourself or others that no one cares.
              >
              > tks
              >
              > Austin Jones
              > prints by AJ
              > austin@...
              > http://printsbyaj.com
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
              > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
              > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an
              > End...
              >
              >
              > > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares
              > about the hours you
              > > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and
              > cursing your hand eye
              > > coordination.
              > >
              > > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the
              > best possible product
              > > at the most reasonable price possible?
              > >
              > > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the
              > first and final time
              > > I had any desire to do so.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >     mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
            • Austin Jones
              Yep! You can please All of the People Some of the Time You can please Some of the People All of the Time But, You can t Please All of the People All of the
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                Yep!

                You can please All of the People Some of the Time
                You can please Some of the People All of the Time
                But, You can't Please All of the People All of the Time.

                tks

                Austin Jones
                prints by AJ
                austin@...
                http://printsbyaj.com
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Steve Robison" <robisonsteve@...>
                To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:50 AM
                Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                >
                > To use a metaphor...
                >
                > Some people walk
                > Some people ride a bike
                > Some people drive a car
                > Some people take the train
                > Some people fly
                >
                > Each process (method) eventually gets you where you want to go, and each
                > has it's own merits and limitations, followers and detractors.
                >
                > What's important for some is the journey, and for others the destination,
                > and still others a little bit of both.
                >
                > Each printing method currently known has a similar spectrum of
                > possibilities. Here are a few...
                >
                > Some people write(wrote) on clay tablets
                > Some people write and draw with pencil
                > Some people write and draw with pen and ink
                > Some people draw on stones and etch images with acid
                > Some people carve in metal to make grooves
                > Some people carve in wood or linoleum to leave raised relief images
                > Some people cast individual letters in metal type
                > Some people make individual letter in wood type
                > Some people hand set metal type and wood type
                > Some people machine set metal type in full lines
                > Some people draw by hand
                > Some people print images letterpress using copper, zinc or magnesium
                > plates
                > Some people design and compose on the computer and print the images
                > letterpress using etched copper, zinc, magnesium or photopolymer plates
                > Some people take photographic images of their composition and use offset
                > lithography to transfer those images on to paper
                > Some people ditto
                > Some people mimeograph
                > Some people xerox or use high speed digital presses
                > Some people use telepathy to transfer images from one mind to the other
                >
                > Which one of the above is the "best" method is determined by the
                > practitioner and the end user and how they each want to enjoy the journey
                > and/or get to the destination.
                >
                > That tension is always in flux. It is always dependent on context. It is
                > always changing. It is the dance between the two that will determine
                > what's best.
                >
                > Steve Robison
                > The Robison Press
                > Belmont, CA - 25 miles south of San Francisco
                > robisonsteve@...
                >
                >
                > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Austin Jones <austin@...> wrote:
                >
                >> From: Austin Jones <austin@...>
                >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
                >> To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:54 AM
                >> I really have to disagree with you on
                >> this one. There have always been
                >> artists and buyers interested in the process. There are
                >> buyers who are only
                >> interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always
                >> been producers
                >> willing to give it to them. Just because there has always
                >> been a market for
                >> and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does
                >> not mean there is
                >> no market for the product which strives to maintain the
                >> process.
                >>
                >> As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the
                >> buyer with the
                >> product I have no problem. However, when there is an
                >> attempt to promote a
                >> product as something other than what it really is, I am
                >> prone to speak up.
                >>
                >> So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides,
                >> and historical
                >> reprints because there are people out there who can
                >> appreciate the
                >> difference in the product. If you don't want to do that,
                >> fine. But don't try
                >> to convince yourself or others that no one cares.
                >>
                >> tks
                >>
                >> Austin Jones
                >> prints by AJ
                >> austin@...
                >> http://printsbyaj.com
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
                >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
                >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an
                >> End...
                >>
                >>
                >> > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares
                >> about the hours you
                >> > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and
                >> cursing your hand eye
                >> > coordination.
                >> >
                >> > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the
                >> best possible product
                >> > at the most reasonable price possible?
                >> >
                >> > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the
                >> first and final time
                >> > I had any desire to do so.
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > ------------------------------------
                >> >
                >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
                >>
                >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>
                >>
                >> mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Michael Babcock
                ... no strain; no cursing. and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can t to it, you can t know it. ... no. think again. rather,
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                  --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.

                  no strain; no cursing.

                  and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can't to it, you can't know it.

                  >
                  > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?

                  no. think again. rather, just think.

                  >
                  > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                  >

                  lame. you clearly aren't cut out for letterpress. stop pretending now.
                • Gerald Lange
                  I heard this on the radio the other day: All beer is good. But some beer is better. Some guy talking about his dad, who was involved in the business.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                    I heard this on the radio the other day: "All beer is good. But some
                    beer is better." Some guy talking about his dad, who was involved in the
                    business.

                    Obviously folks value quality and the well crafted, and the better made.
                    This is commonplace in everyday life, in our everyday values. I have
                    never quite understood why there is such a particularly overt resistance
                    to this though in the general communications that transverse the
                    letterpress world.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                    Michael Babcock wrote:
                    > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                    >>
                    >
                    > no strain; no cursing.
                    >
                    > and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can't to it, you can't know it.
                    >
                    >
                    >> Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?
                    >>
                    >
                    > no. think again. rather, just think.
                    >
                    >
                    >> I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    > lame. you clearly aren't cut out for letterpress. stop pretending now.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • leorawest
                    Michael- Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you ve come to the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and those
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                      Michael-
                      Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                      Leora
                    • Austin Jones
                      I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the various
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                        I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting
                        on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the
                        various wishes of different people. No one needs to be criticized for having
                        an opinion, no matter what the opinion. Lets all be the tolerant ones we
                        want everyone else to be.

                        tks

                        Austin Jones
                        prints by AJ
                        austin@...
                        http://printsbyaj.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
                        To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:52 PM
                        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                        > Michael-
                        > Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to
                        > the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and
                        > those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                        > Leora
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Gerald Lange
                        In email discourse, it seems best if one takes the ancient Greek approach to logic/argument. One may, and should, question an idea that is perceived to be
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                          In email discourse, it seems best if one takes the ancient Greek approach to logic/argument. One may, and should, question an idea that is perceived to be errant, but one should never attack the character of the person who uttered it as a part of the questioning. That serves no fruitful purpose.

                          Gerald
                          http://bielerpress.blogspot.com

                          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Austin Jones" <austin@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting
                          > on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the
                          > various wishes of different people. No one needs to be criticized for having
                          > an opinion, no matter what the opinion. Lets all be the tolerant ones we
                          > want everyone else to be.
                          >
                          > tks
                          >
                          > Austin Jones
                          > prints by AJ
                          > austin@...
                          > http://printsbyaj.com
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
                          > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:52 PM
                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
                          >
                          >
                          > > Michael-
                          > > Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to
                          > > the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and
                          > > those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                          > > Leora
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Casey McGarr
                          I felt the same way the first time I set some 10 pt type and it fell. Then picked the type back up and set it the correct way so it wouldn t fall. There is a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 4, 2009
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                            I felt the same way the first time I set some 10 pt type and it fell. Then picked the type back up and set it the correct way so it wouldn't fall.

                            There is a lot of satisfaction setting type by hand. Now granted I don't set every job I print by handset type but when I do its an accomplishment. Really an accomplishment when I have all the sorts, LOL.

                            However, thank you for photopolymer. What is not set by hand goes digital and I love it. Since I'm a graphic designer the opportunity to experiment with images and type is also very satisfying.

                            I have a few friends here in the Dallas area that only print photopolymer and another group of friends that handset the type. As long as we both get the final piece printed in the way it was envisioned then great for all of us.

                            Casey
                            http://www.inkylipspress.com


                            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                            >
                            > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?
                            >
                            > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                            >
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