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Digital as a Means to an End...

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  • Michael Babcock
    Rather than an end in itself. Despite a dedication to older means of production, I happily acknowledge the power and ease with which modern tools can aid in
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 29, 2009
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      Rather than an end in itself.

      Despite a dedication to older means of production, I happily acknowledge the power and ease with which modern tools can aid in the design and development of preliminary sketches both for internal use and client presentation.

      To that end, and with the proofs pulled and type in four sizes laid in cases, I have digitized what has proven to be an obscure penline script face designed for D. Stempel in the 30s, and currently available in metal from Rainier Gerstenberg at Schriften-Service D. Stempel in Darmstadt, DE. In addition I did a quickie of the ATF's "Primrose" border.

      Absolutely slap dash, auto-traced vectors copied out of Illustrator into FontLab in the course of an evening, I can now do layouts of general approximation before ever pulling a case open.

      To my mind, this is leveraging the best of both worlds, the hot metal and the digital.

      Comments are welcome as long as they don't bear on design, naughty words, kerning pairs, letter fit, color choices, or the fact that 6-pages do not a booklet make. Oh yes, and the cap E IS missing, though it IS in both digital and analog cuts...

      http://interrobangletterpress.com/html/misc/gladiola.html

      --
      michael babcock • interrobang letterpress
      direct-from-type letterpress since 1992
      .................................................
      interrobangletterpress.com
      linotypesetting.com
      flickr.com/photos/interrobang918/
      twitter.com/interrobang918
    • Barbara Hauser
      Hey Michael I think that is very cool. I love that script, except the descenders on the g and y bother me a bit, but I guess it can t be helped. Sometimes I
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 31, 2009
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        Hey Michael I think that is very cool. I love that script, except the descenders
        on the g and y bother me a bit, but I guess it can't be helped. Sometimes I
        worry a little that all the exclusively metal fonts will be digitized so that no
        one will be able to appreciate that you spent hours hunched over a table setting
        it all out. But then again, if no one digitized metal fonts, they would
        disappear entirely when the last sort wears out

        I work mostly in metal, too, but use the computer all the time to aid in layout
        and typesetting. I recently needed to set a good-sized block of text in 8-point
        Gill Sans, full-justified. Typing it out digitally first really sped things up
        by helping me anticipate line breaks and hyphenation. It also let me fiddle with
        leading without having to proof each try and without the risk of klutzing out
        when respacing lines of small type. I also use digitally created printouts to
        physically lay out metal forms: http://tinyurl.com/mofj5w and
        http://tinyurl.com/mbguw6 .

        Sometimes I feel like I'm cheating -- that I'm not really learning to set metal
        type if I rely on digital aids -- since one of the reasons I work in metal is to
        help preserve the craft. But mostly I feel as you do, that I'm getting the best
        of both worlds.

        Barbara

        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Babcock" <mjb@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rather than an end in itself.
        >
        > Despite a dedication to older means of production, I happily acknowledge the power and ease with which modern tools can aid in the design and development of preliminary sketches both for internal use and client presentation.
        >
        > To that end, and with the proofs pulled and type in four sizes laid in cases, I have digitized what has proven to be an obscure penline script face designed for D. Stempel in the 30s, and currently available in metal from Rainier Gerstenberg at Schriften-Service D. Stempel in Darmstadt, DE. In addition I did a quickie of the ATF's "Primrose" border....
      • matthew lamoureux
        If you think for a minute that those who came before us would not have used this technique as an aide your kidding yourself. It wasn t available to them though
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 31, 2009
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          If you think for a minute that those who came before us would not have used this technique as an aide your kidding yourself. It wasn't available to them though so they had no choice.

          As the old adage goes. . . . work smarter not harder.

          Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
          Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


          Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
          Thomas Jefferson


          When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Scott Rubel
          True. What makes people 100 years ago different from us? We all want the tools that make our crafts easier. There is value in preserving the old knowledge, of
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 31, 2009
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            True. What makes people 100 years ago different from us? We all want
            the tools that make our crafts easier. There is value in preserving
            the old knowledge, of course, because you never know when we'll need
            to go back to it. Keeping the Republic in the hardest times…that's
            why I keep a treadle around.

            --Scott

            On Jul 31, 2009, at 9:44 AM, matthew lamoureux wrote:

            > If you think for a minute that those who came before us would not
            > have used this technique as an aide your kidding yourself. It
            > wasn't available to them though so they had no choice.
            >
            > As the old adage goes. . . . work smarter not harder.
            >
            > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
            > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
            >
            >
            > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
            > Thomas Jefferson
            >
            >
            > When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was
            > asked by woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A
            > Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Gerald Lange
            Yes, one should use the best tools available to them, and while it likely not a good idea to hold hands with the dead (which lots of folks seem to like to
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 31, 2009
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              Yes, one should use the best tools available to them, and while it likely not a good idea to hold hands with the dead (which lots of folks seem to like to do)–"they might not appreciate it," as the saying goes—it cannot hurt in any way to have a thorough knowledge of where we came from and how it was done.

              I'm not into the acquisition of discarded material and equipment per se myself but I do highly appreciate their preservation. Though I doubt that just have this stuff around in your basement or garage or whatever actually allows one to proclaim they are preserving it. Coin collectors acquire old coins, are they preserving them? in most cases, not really, they are simply possessing them until they pass from their ownership.

              Gerald
              http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


              >
              > If you think for a minute that those who came before us would not have used this technique as an aide your kidding yourself. It wasn't available to them though so they had no choice.
              >
              > As the old adage goes. . . . work smarter not harder.
              >
              > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
              > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
              >
            • Michael Babcock
              Hi Barbara, Thank you. Yes, using digital for layout is certainly the way to go. The primary pitfall is the disparity of letter fit between physical reality
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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                Hi Barbara,

                Thank you.

                Yes, using digital for layout is certainly the way to go. The primary pitfall is the disparity of letter fit between physical reality and digital emulation, especially if you are trying to do a tight layout (such as it sound like you were with the Gill). Secondarily so is the actual character size of digital vs metal. Since digital is unconstrained by physical body, and is created without reference to such, there is no generally accurate correlation possible.

                Michael Russem / Kat Ran Press gave an interesting talk several years ago at the North East Kingdom Typographic Congress at Stinehour Press in Lunenburg where he outlined his method of laying out books digitally for eventual Monotype composition by the Bixler's.

                If I recall, he did trial sets to determine the built-in fit of any give metal face he was planning to have comp set in and then did digital sets to determine what point size and tracking he needed to set the digital in to give an accurate representation of eventual hot metal setting. Once those variables were arrived at and recorded, layout was simple and painless. And since the setting was in Monotype, any discrepancies once set could be corrected with relative ease.

                Hey, in the end, it has allowed us to retire the Haberule and its exhaustive design specific tables, and that isn't a bad thing...

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Hauser" <BarbHauser@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey Michael I think that is very cool. I love that script, except the descenders
                > on the g and y bother me a bit, but I guess it can't be helped. Sometimes I
                > worry a little that all the exclusively metal fonts will be digitized so that no
                > one will be able to appreciate that you spent hours hunched over a table setting
                > it all out. But then again, if no one digitized metal fonts, they would
                > disappear entirely when the last sort wears out
                >
                > I work mostly in metal, too, but use the computer all the time to aid in layout
                > and typesetting. I recently needed to set a good-sized block of text in 8-point
                > Gill Sans, full-justified. Typing it out digitally first really sped things up
                > by helping me anticipate line breaks and hyphenation. It also let me fiddle with
                > leading without having to proof each try and without the risk of klutzing out
                > when respacing lines of small type. I also use digitally created printouts to
                > physically lay out metal forms: http://tinyurl.com/mofj5w and
                > http://tinyurl.com/mbguw6 .
                >
                > Sometimes I feel like I'm cheating -- that I'm not really learning to set metal
                > type if I rely on digital aids -- since one of the reasons I work in metal is to
                > help preserve the craft. But mostly I feel as you do, that I'm getting the best
                > of both worlds.
                >
                > Barbara
                >
                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Babcock" <mjb@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Rather than an end in itself.
                > >
                > > Despite a dedication to older means of production, I happily acknowledge the power and ease with which modern tools can aid in the design and development of preliminary sketches both for internal use and client presentation.
                > >
                > > To that end, and with the proofs pulled and type in four sizes laid in cases, I have digitized what has proven to be an obscure penline script face designed for D. Stempel in the 30s, and currently available in metal from Rainier Gerstenberg at Schriften-Service D. Stempel in Darmstadt, DE. In addition I did a quickie of the ATF's "Primrose" border....
                >
              • rdziesing
                You know....I m just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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                  You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.

                  Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?

                  I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                • matthew lamoureux
                  Preservation I would suppose depends an what you do with items while in your possession. A coin collector who simply throws all his coins into a tin can I
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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                    Preservation I would suppose depends an what you do with items while in your possession. A coin collector who simply throws all his coins into a tin can I would not say is preserving them. One who seals them in the plastic bags, marks and labels then and keeps record of what history he knows of them would in my opinion be preserving them.

                    same holds true for anything, now where to find a plastic bag big enough to seal my Golding into ;)

                    Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                    Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae


                    Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                    Thomas Jefferson


                    When Benjamin Franklin exited the Constitutional Convention, he was asked by woman, "Sir, what have you given us?" He replied, "A Republic, Ma'am, if you can keep it".




                    ________________________________
                    From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                    To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2009 1:04:18 AM
                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                    Yes, one should use the best tools available to them, and while it likely not a good idea to hold hands with the dead (which lots of folks seem to like to do)–"they might not appreciate it," as the saying goes—it cannot hurt in any way to have a thorough knowledge of where we came from and how it was done.

                    I'm not into the acquisition of discarded material and equipment per se myself but I do highly appreciate their preservation. Though I doubt that just have this stuff around in your basement or garage or whatever actually allows one to proclaim they are preserving it. Coin collectors acquire old coins, are they preserving them? in most cases, not really, they are simply possessing them until they pass from their ownership.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress. blogspot. com

                    >
                    > If you think for a minute that those who came before us would not have used this technique as an aide your kidding yourself. It wasn't available to them though so they had no choice.
                    >
                    > As the old adage goes. . . . work smarter not harder.
                    >
                    > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                    > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
                    >







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Barbara Hauser
                    Yes, Michael, that s how I do it, too. I set a few lines in metal and then type the same lines digitally. Then I fiddle with fractional point sizes and leading
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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                      Yes, Michael, that's how I do it, too. I set a few lines in metal and then type the same lines digitally. Then I fiddle with fractional point sizes and leading until my digital lines are exactly the same size as the metal ones. If I don't happen to have a digital face that matches the metal face I'm working with, I just pick something close since it's only the size I'm concerned with. I may end up making a few adjustments, but it helps tremendously to have something to start with.

                      rdziesing, it may be true that in some cases it's only the typesetter herself who cares about the hours slumped over a table, but whenever I have invited the uninitiated to observe a little of what I do, they invariably are captivated. A conversation invariably ensues about how important the spread of information must be for this type of work to have been carried out, on a large scale, for five centuries.

                      I truly appreciate your frustration and impatience with handsetting a simple name and address -- it's not for everyone, to be sure. But me, I am happy -- relieved, actually -- to get my eyes off a flat, glowing screen and make intimate physical contact with the words I'm printing. I find it extremely relaxing -- a welcome respite from all of the other things in my life that I must rush through. But then again I'm just a hobby printer. You're right, if I did it for a living it would be digital typesetting all the way.

                      Barbara


                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Babcock" <mjb@...> wrote:

                      . . . Michael Russem / Kat Ran Press gave an interesting talk several years ago at the North East Kingdom Typographic Congress at Stinehour Press in Lunenburg where he outlined his method of laying out books digitally for eventual Monotype composition by the Bixler's.

                      If I recall, he did trial sets to determine the built-in fit of any give metal face he was planning to have comp set in and then did digital sets to determine what point size and tracking he needed to set the digital in to give an accurate representation of eventual hot metal setting. Once those variables were arrived at and recorded, layout was simple and painless. And since the setting was in Monotype, any discrepancies once set could be corrected with relative ease. . . .


                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                    • Austin Jones
                      I really have to disagree with you on this one. There have always been artists and buyers interested in the process. There are buyers who are only interested
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 1, 2009
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                        I really have to disagree with you on this one. There have always been
                        artists and buyers interested in the process. There are buyers who are only
                        interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always been producers
                        willing to give it to them. Just because there has always been a market for
                        and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does not mean there is
                        no market for the product which strives to maintain the process.

                        As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the buyer with the
                        product I have no problem. However, when there is an attempt to promote a
                        product as something other than what it really is, I am prone to speak up.

                        So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides, and historical
                        reprints because there are people out there who can appreciate the
                        difference in the product. If you don't want to do that, fine. But don't try
                        to convince yourself or others that no one cares.

                        tks

                        Austin Jones
                        prints by AJ
                        austin@...
                        http://printsbyaj.com
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
                        To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
                        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                        > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you
                        > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye
                        > coordination.
                        >
                        > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product
                        > at the most reasonable price possible?
                        >
                        > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time
                        > I had any desire to do so.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Steve Robison
                        To use a metaphor... Some people walk Some people ride a bike Some people drive a car Some people take the train Some people fly Each process (method)
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                          To use a metaphor...

                          Some people walk
                          Some people ride a bike
                          Some people drive a car
                          Some people take the train
                          Some people fly

                          Each process (method) eventually gets you where you want to go, and each has it's own merits and limitations, followers and detractors.

                          What's important for some is the journey, and for others the destination, and still others a little bit of both.

                          Each printing method currently known has a similar spectrum of possibilities. Here are a few...

                          Some people write(wrote) on clay tablets
                          Some people write and draw with pencil
                          Some people write and draw with pen and ink
                          Some people draw on stones and etch images with acid
                          Some people carve in metal to make grooves
                          Some people carve in wood or linoleum to leave raised relief images
                          Some people cast individual letters in metal type
                          Some people make individual letter in wood type
                          Some people hand set metal type and wood type
                          Some people machine set metal type in full lines
                          Some people draw by hand
                          Some people print images letterpress using copper, zinc or magnesium plates
                          Some people design and compose on the computer and print the images letterpress using etched copper, zinc, magnesium or photopolymer plates
                          Some people take photographic images of their composition and use offset lithography to transfer those images on to paper
                          Some people ditto
                          Some people mimeograph
                          Some people xerox or use high speed digital presses
                          Some people use telepathy to transfer images from one mind to the other

                          Which one of the above is the "best" method is determined by the practitioner and the end user and how they each want to enjoy the journey and/or get to the destination.

                          That tension is always in flux. It is always dependent on context. It is always changing. It is the dance between the two that will determine what's best.

                          Steve Robison
                          The Robison Press
                          Belmont, CA - 25 miles south of San Francisco
                          robisonsteve@...


                          --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Austin Jones <austin@...> wrote:

                          > From: Austin Jones <austin@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
                          > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:54 AM
                          > I really have to disagree with you on
                          > this one. There have always been
                          > artists and buyers interested in the process. There are
                          > buyers who are only
                          > interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always
                          > been producers
                          > willing to give it to them. Just because there has always
                          > been a market for
                          > and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does
                          > not mean there is
                          > no market for the product which strives to maintain the
                          > process.
                          >
                          > As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the
                          > buyer with the
                          > product I have no problem. However, when there is an
                          > attempt to promote a
                          > product as something other than what it really is, I am
                          > prone to speak up.
                          >
                          > So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides,
                          > and historical
                          > reprints because there are people out there who can
                          > appreciate the
                          > difference in the product. If you don't want to do that,
                          > fine. But don't try
                          > to convince yourself or others that no one cares.
                          >
                          > tks
                          >
                          > Austin Jones
                          > prints by AJ
                          > austin@...
                          > http://printsbyaj.com
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
                          > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
                          > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an
                          > End...
                          >
                          >
                          > > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares
                          > about the hours you
                          > > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and
                          > cursing your hand eye
                          > > coordination.
                          > >
                          > > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the
                          > best possible product
                          > > at the most reasonable price possible?
                          > >
                          > > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the
                          > first and final time
                          > > I had any desire to do so.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >     mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Austin Jones
                          Yep! You can please All of the People Some of the Time You can please Some of the People All of the Time But, You can t Please All of the People All of the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                            Yep!

                            You can please All of the People Some of the Time
                            You can please Some of the People All of the Time
                            But, You can't Please All of the People All of the Time.

                            tks

                            Austin Jones
                            prints by AJ
                            austin@...
                            http://printsbyaj.com
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Steve Robison" <robisonsteve@...>
                            To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 4:50 AM
                            Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                            >
                            > To use a metaphor...
                            >
                            > Some people walk
                            > Some people ride a bike
                            > Some people drive a car
                            > Some people take the train
                            > Some people fly
                            >
                            > Each process (method) eventually gets you where you want to go, and each
                            > has it's own merits and limitations, followers and detractors.
                            >
                            > What's important for some is the journey, and for others the destination,
                            > and still others a little bit of both.
                            >
                            > Each printing method currently known has a similar spectrum of
                            > possibilities. Here are a few...
                            >
                            > Some people write(wrote) on clay tablets
                            > Some people write and draw with pencil
                            > Some people write and draw with pen and ink
                            > Some people draw on stones and etch images with acid
                            > Some people carve in metal to make grooves
                            > Some people carve in wood or linoleum to leave raised relief images
                            > Some people cast individual letters in metal type
                            > Some people make individual letter in wood type
                            > Some people hand set metal type and wood type
                            > Some people machine set metal type in full lines
                            > Some people draw by hand
                            > Some people print images letterpress using copper, zinc or magnesium
                            > plates
                            > Some people design and compose on the computer and print the images
                            > letterpress using etched copper, zinc, magnesium or photopolymer plates
                            > Some people take photographic images of their composition and use offset
                            > lithography to transfer those images on to paper
                            > Some people ditto
                            > Some people mimeograph
                            > Some people xerox or use high speed digital presses
                            > Some people use telepathy to transfer images from one mind to the other
                            >
                            > Which one of the above is the "best" method is determined by the
                            > practitioner and the end user and how they each want to enjoy the journey
                            > and/or get to the destination.
                            >
                            > That tension is always in flux. It is always dependent on context. It is
                            > always changing. It is the dance between the two that will determine
                            > what's best.
                            >
                            > Steve Robison
                            > The Robison Press
                            > Belmont, CA - 25 miles south of San Francisco
                            > robisonsteve@...
                            >
                            >
                            > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Austin Jones <austin@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> From: Austin Jones <austin@...>
                            >> Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
                            >> To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 11:54 AM
                            >> I really have to disagree with you on
                            >> this one. There have always been
                            >> artists and buyers interested in the process. There are
                            >> buyers who are only
                            >> interested in getting something CHEAP. There have always
                            >> been producers
                            >> willing to give it to them. Just because there has always
                            >> been a market for
                            >> and producers willing to provide the cheap product, does
                            >> not mean there is
                            >> no market for the product which strives to maintain the
                            >> process.
                            >>
                            >> As long as the producer is not attempting to mislead the
                            >> buyer with the
                            >> product I have no problem. However, when there is an
                            >> attempt to promote a
                            >> product as something other than what it really is, I am
                            >> prone to speak up.
                            >>
                            >> So, I am saying that I handset miniature books, broadsides,
                            >> and historical
                            >> reprints because there are people out there who can
                            >> appreciate the
                            >> difference in the product. If you don't want to do that,
                            >> fine. But don't try
                            >> to convince yourself or others that no one cares.
                            >>
                            >> tks
                            >>
                            >> Austin Jones
                            >> prints by AJ
                            >> austin@...
                            >> http://printsbyaj.com
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: "rdziesing" <rziesing@...>
                            >> To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                            >> Sent: Saturday, August 01, 2009 11:15 AM
                            >> Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an
                            >> End...
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares
                            >> about the hours you
                            >> > spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and
                            >> cursing your hand eye
                            >> > coordination.
                            >> >
                            >> > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the
                            >> best possible product
                            >> > at the most reasonable price possible?
                            >> >
                            >> > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the
                            >> first and final time
                            >> > I had any desire to do so.
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > ------------------------------------
                            >> >
                            >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> mailto:PPLetterpress-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Michael Babcock
                            ... no strain; no cursing. and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can t to it, you can t know it. ... no. think again. rather,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                              --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.

                              no strain; no cursing.

                              and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can't to it, you can't know it.

                              >
                              > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?

                              no. think again. rather, just think.

                              >
                              > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                              >

                              lame. you clearly aren't cut out for letterpress. stop pretending now.
                            • Gerald Lange
                              I heard this on the radio the other day: All beer is good. But some beer is better. Some guy talking about his dad, who was involved in the business.
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 2, 2009
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                                I heard this on the radio the other day: "All beer is good. But some
                                beer is better." Some guy talking about his dad, who was involved in the
                                business.

                                Obviously folks value quality and the well crafted, and the better made.
                                This is commonplace in everyday life, in our everyday values. I have
                                never quite understood why there is such a particularly overt resistance
                                to this though in the general communications that transverse the
                                letterpress world.

                                Gerald
                                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                                Michael Babcock wrote:
                                > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                                >>
                                >
                                > no strain; no cursing.
                                >
                                > and yes, many people care about real work, well done. perhaps since you can't to it, you can't know it.
                                >
                                >
                                >> Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?
                                >>
                                >
                                > no. think again. rather, just think.
                                >
                                >
                                >> I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                > lame. you clearly aren't cut out for letterpress. stop pretending now.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • leorawest
                                Michael- Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you ve come to the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and those
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                                  Michael-
                                  Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                                  Leora
                                • Austin Jones
                                  I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the various
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                                    I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting
                                    on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the
                                    various wishes of different people. No one needs to be criticized for having
                                    an opinion, no matter what the opinion. Lets all be the tolerant ones we
                                    want everyone else to be.

                                    tks

                                    Austin Jones
                                    prints by AJ
                                    austin@...
                                    http://printsbyaj.com
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
                                    To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:52 PM
                                    Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...


                                    > Michael-
                                    > Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to
                                    > the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and
                                    > those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                                    > Leora
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Gerald Lange
                                    In email discourse, it seems best if one takes the ancient Greek approach to logic/argument. One may, and should, question an idea that is perceived to be
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 3, 2009
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                                      In email discourse, it seems best if one takes the ancient Greek approach to logic/argument. One may, and should, question an idea that is perceived to be errant, but one should never attack the character of the person who uttered it as a part of the questioning. That serves no fruitful purpose.

                                      Gerald
                                      http://bielerpress.blogspot.com

                                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Austin Jones" <austin@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I think Gerald went out of his way to try to be nice to everyone commenting
                                      > on this issue. Lots of people have tried to be philosophical about the
                                      > various wishes of different people. No one needs to be criticized for having
                                      > an opinion, no matter what the opinion. Lets all be the tolerant ones we
                                      > want everyone else to be.
                                      >
                                      > tks
                                      >
                                      > Austin Jones
                                      > prints by AJ
                                      > austin@...
                                      > http://printsbyaj.com
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: "leorawest" <leorawest@...>
                                      > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 1:52 PM
                                      > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Digital as a Means to an End...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > Michael-
                                      > > Your mission and type collection are impressive; but if you've come to
                                      > > the photo polymer list only to insult those of us who use this method and
                                      > > those of us who do both, maybe you're in the wrong forum.
                                      > > Leora
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > ------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Casey McGarr
                                      I felt the same way the first time I set some 10 pt type and it fell. Then picked the type back up and set it the correct way so it wouldn t fall. There is a
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 4, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        I felt the same way the first time I set some 10 pt type and it fell. Then picked the type back up and set it the correct way so it wouldn't fall.

                                        There is a lot of satisfaction setting type by hand. Now granted I don't set every job I print by handset type but when I do its an accomplishment. Really an accomplishment when I have all the sorts, LOL.

                                        However, thank you for photopolymer. What is not set by hand goes digital and I love it. Since I'm a graphic designer the opportunity to experiment with images and type is also very satisfying.

                                        I have a few friends here in the Dallas area that only print photopolymer and another group of friends that handset the type. As long as we both get the final piece printed in the way it was envisioned then great for all of us.

                                        Casey
                                        http://www.inkylipspress.com


                                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "rdziesing" <rziesing@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > You know....I'm just not convinced that ANYone cares about the hours you spent slumped over a table straining your eyes and cursing your hand eye coordination.
                                        >
                                        > Isn't the real purpose of any craft to produce the best possible product at the most reasonable price possible?
                                        >
                                        > I set my name and address by hand once. That was the first and final time I had any desire to do so.
                                        >
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