Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: U.S. type foundries

Expand Messages
  • David McNamara
    Alex, Apologies in advance if this is inappropriate, but...since you re casting, and you re hurting for money, would you cast for cash? Or are you on a strict
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 28, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Alex,

      Apologies in advance if this is inappropriate, but...since you're casting, and you're hurting for money, would you cast for cash? Or are you on a strict apprenticeship (where you'd be stepping on toes if you sold work)?

      Just a thought.
      __

      David

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: alex brooks
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:31 AM
      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: U.S. type foundries


      Yes, the difference is in the metal, the matrix, and the typecaster
      (and I guess, the type-castor).

      Monotype metal is much softer than foundry - try to break a sort in
      half and you'll see the difference. It's also true that as type
      increase in point size the metal decreases in hardness.

      The matrix is also different, the depth of drive on foundry matrices
      is deeper, allowing for a deeper shoulder, more kerning, stronger
      face, etc.

      The most important difference in typecasters is in pressure and in
      speed. A monotype caster may be as fast as a barth caster, but it
      does not create the same amount of pressure at the point of casting.
      This is responsible for the hardness and solidity of foundry type as
      much as the metal. You can put hard metal in a Thompson caster, and
      use Barth matrices in a Thompson, but it won't be quite the same as
      Barth cast type. When M&H says they are using foundry metal, they are
      actually using harder metal in Thompson Monotype casters, probably
      still not as hard as Barth metal.
      There are foundry machines other than the Barths: pivotals, as well
      as euro & asian automatics. The pivotals cast very good type but take
      more courage. They can be automatic or hand cranked, but they still
      can't cast type as fast as a Barth, and the sorts require much more
      finishing (by hand) after casting. And there are some folks out there
      making type by hand, with hand molds, but this is obviously a slow
      method of production.

      I think monotype is great if you can cast the type, print with it in
      house, and melt it down - Like M&H and Arion press operate. This was
      the intended function for a monotype caster. (I particularly like the
      computer operated setup that some have engineered to replace the
      keyboard & paper tape that monotype casters run on) But for a printer
      who does not cast her own type, Monotype does not equal Foundry type
      in quality and durability.

      There are foundries working in Europe and in Japan, and in India
      (maybe other places), but in America, the Dale Guild is the only
      Commercial Type Foundry with a capital 'F'. I in no way wish to
      disparage any monotype castors, or anyone who is giving their hard
      work and spirit to making type. Most of these folks have been doing
      it for many years before I was born and know more than I will
      probably ever learn, but I've told you what I know.

      NA Graphics sells Dale Guild type (and is a great supporter of the
      foundry) and you can buy from the Dale Guild directly.
      Greg Walters, in Piqua OH, owns some of the ATF Barth casters, but
      I'm not sure if he uses them to cast type.
      Howard Bratter, in Brooklyn, is currently selling a complete set-up
      of multiple automatic pivotals, imported from the UK.

      Interestingly, one reason there are so few true foundry typecasters
      in America is the consolidation of all the American typefoundries
      into ATF. ATF literally owned every single automatic caster in
      America until their close, and then they were all sold to a few
      buyers, or they were scrapped. In Japan, for comparison, there was
      never any consolidation, and today there are at least 6 working
      typefoundries in Tokyo alone, as well as more in other cities. The
      downside: they all have their own proprietary type height (e.g. - no .
      918).

      I'm sure i've left something out, or said something wrong, i'm tired.
      If anyone wants to know more, I can answer any other questions tomorrow.

      also, Gerald, I would never melt down your Claudius Fraktur, although
      one day I will acquire your Dominante (not for smelting though, for
      printing).

      -Alex
      press eight seventeen - lexington letterpress

      On Mar 1, 2009, at 12:51 AM, Gerald Lange wrote:

      > Lisa
      >
      > The birth right is the matrix, but more the casting machine. M&H may
      > label their material as foundry cast type (didn't all Monotype
      > casters?), but it is not (at least not in the definitive definition of
      > the term).
      >
      > Gerald
      > http://BielerPress.blogspot.com
      >
      > >
      > > >Alex was referring to foundry type. The others are (I think)
      > Monotype composition (except for NA Graphics's type, but Dale Guild is
      > their supplier, I believe); the foundry type Alex refers to is a
      > harder alloy (so, if you do send him your hell box, his needs are for
      > foundry type, not Monotype composition; the two are not
      > interchangeable, as far as I know.)
      > >
      > > Good point--sorry about taking "type foundry" too loosely--but M&H
      > does cast both monotype and foundry type--Kenny, are you lurking?
      > Please clarify if I'm wrong.
      > > Best,
      > > Lisa
      > > Littoral Press
      >
      > .
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ph.D.
      Greg Walters in Piqua, Ohio owns some of the Barth casters from ATF, but he does not cast type for sale. He recently bought the ten Kustermann casting machines
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Greg Walters in Piqua, Ohio owns some of the Barth
        casters from ATF, but he does not cast type for sale.
        He recently bought the ten Kustermann casting machines
        from Cast Craft in Chicago. These were the type of
        casters used by European type foundries to make
        high-quality foundry type just like ATF's. Cast Craft
        had imported them to use with their pirated matrices
        to cast Helvetica and Optima and Melior back in the
        early 1970s.

        Greg is going to host the biennial conference of the
        American Typecasting Fellowship in 2010. He is
        building a new building to house all the casters and
        plans to have at least some of each kind up and
        running by the time of the conference.

        --Ph. D.


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: alex brooks
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:31 AM
        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: U.S. type foundries

        NA Graphics sells Dale Guild type (and is a great
        supporter of the foundry) and you can buy from the
        Dale Guild directly. Greg Walters, in Piqua OH,
        owns some of the ATF Barth casters, but I'm not
        sure if he uses them to cast type. Howard Bratter,
        in Brooklyn, is currently selling a complete set-up
        of multiple automatic pivotals, imported from the UK.
      • parallel_imp
        ... The term type foundry predates the Barth and Kustermann casting machines, even the Bruce Pivotal, so your definitive definition is a modern distinction
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 1, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
          >
          > The birth right is the matrix, but more the casting machine. M&H may
          > label their material as foundry cast type (didn't all Monotype
          > casters?), but it is not (at least not in the definitive definition of
          > the term).

          The term "type foundry" predates the Barth and Kustermann casting
          machines, even the Bruce Pivotal, so your "definitive definition" is a
          modern distinction that wouldn't necessarily be recognized by past
          generations of type casters. The term goes back to the days of the
          hand mold.
          If Alex had said instead, "last type foundry using foundry casters"
          that would be more accurate.
          --Eric Holub, SF
        • jason@greenboathouse.com
          I m currently looking, ideally, for a Thompson, but should anyone know of any working Monotype caster looking for a home where it will be put to good use,
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 1, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            I'm currently looking, ideally, for a Thompson, but should anyone know of any working Monotype caster looking for a home where it will be put to good use, please let me know. I'm In BC (Canada), and thus this end of the continent would be preferable in terms of pick-up.

            Following in Jim Rimmer's path, my goal is to eventually find a Pantograph and to cast type both from Monotype matrices and also to produce new designs. A lofty goal, clearly, but I'd like to follow in the line of private presses using a house type (Kelmscott, Doves, etc.), and in turn to keep this tradition and practice alive.

            Jason Dewinetz
            Greenboathouse Press



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: parallel_imp
            To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:04 AM
            Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: U.S. type foundries


            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
            >
            > The birth right is the matrix, but more the casting machine. M&H may
            > label their material as foundry cast type (didn't all Monotype
            > casters?), but it is not (at least not in the definitive definition of
            > the term).

            The term "type foundry" predates the Barth and Kustermann casting
            machines, even the Bruce Pivotal, so your "definitive definition" is a
            modern distinction that wouldn't necessarily be recognized by past
            generations of type casters. The term goes back to the days of the
            hand mold.
            If Alex had said instead, "last type foundry using foundry casters"
            that would be more accurate.
            --Eric Holub, SF




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mel
            Don t forget Skyline Type! Monotype may be softer than Foundry type, but how many printers today will ever print enough to wear out even Monotype cast type?
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 1, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Don't forget Skyline Type!

              Monotype may be softer than Foundry type, but how many printers today
              will ever print enough to wear out even Monotype cast type?


              Mel
            • Lance Williams
              Well, I would for one.... But that is why I have Intertypes and Ludlows... Never have to worry about running out of type or bashing it into uselessness
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 1, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, I would for one.... But that is why I have Intertypes and Ludlows...
                Never have to worry about running out of type or bashing it into
                uselessness <grin>....

                - Lance Williams
                Williams Stationery Co.
                Camden, New York
                APA #785


                > [Original Message]
                > From: Mel <the_melzer@...>
                > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: 3/1/2009 2:04:23 PM
                > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: U.S. type foundries
                >
                > Don't forget Skyline Type!
                >
                > Monotype may be softer than Foundry type, but how many printers today
                > will ever print enough to wear out even Monotype cast type?
                >
                >
                > Mel
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • Graham and Kathy
                Or better, which is the real point: Last type foundry using hard metal. Graham Moss Incline Press 36 Bow Street Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Or better, which is the real point: Last type foundry using hard metal.


                  Graham Moss

                  Incline Press
                  36 Bow Street
                  Oldham OL1 1SJ England

                  http://www.inclinepress.com




                  On 1/3/09 15:04, "parallel_imp" <Megalonyx@...> wrote:

                  > If Alex had said instead, "last type foundry using foundry casters"
                  > that would be more accurate.
                • parallel_imp
                  ... Graham, it isn t just a matter of typemetal. The temperature and pressure at which type is cast is just as important to the hardness of type, and thats why
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Graham and Kathy
                    <kwhalen.incline@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Or better, which is the real point: Last type foundry using hard metal.
                    >

                    Graham, it isn't just a matter of typemetal. The temperature and
                    pressure at which type is cast is just as important to the hardness of
                    type, and thats why Thompson and Monotype casters don't produce the
                    same quality as foundry casters. And it takes foundry mats to stand up
                    to that casting environment, not the brass and aluminum mats made for
                    Monotype equipment. One could ruin mats and machines by trying to make
                    type harder than is normal for the equipment. But wherever any of
                    these machines are used is still a type foundry.
                    --Eric Holub, SF
                  • Graham and Kathy
                    No, quite so, it isn t just a matter of the hardness of the metal that defines a foundry, but Dale Guild is still the last foundry in the US using hard metal.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      No, quite so, it isn't just a matter of the hardness of the metal that
                      defines a foundry, but Dale Guild is still the last foundry in the US using
                      hard metal. Count your blessings; there's none here.

                      As a printer, I'd put hardness of the metal higher than any of the other
                      physical attributes in any hierarchy of importance, assuming the face of the
                      type wasn't full of bubbles that is!


                      Graham Moss

                      Incline Press
                      36 Bow Street
                      Oldham OL1 1SJ England

                      http://www.inclinepress.com






                      On 3/3/09 14:26, "parallel_imp" <Megalonyx@...> wrote:

                      >> Or better, which is the real point: Last type foundry using hard metal.
                      >>
                      >
                      > Graham, it isn't just a matter of typemetal. The temperature and
                      > pressure at which type is cast is just as important to the hardness of
                      > type, and thats why Thompson and Monotype casters don't produce the
                      > same quality as foundry casters. And it takes foundry mats to stand up
                      > to that casting environment, not the brass and aluminum mats made for
                      > Monotype equipment. One could ruin mats and machines by trying to make
                      > type harder than is normal for the equipment. But wherever any of
                      > these machines are used is still a type foundry.
                      > --Eric Holub, SF
                    • typetom@aol.com
                      ...Last type foundry using hard metal. ...last type foundry using foundry casters A type foundry is a place where metal is melted and cast in a mold. The
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 3, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ...Last type foundry using hard metal.

                        ...last type foundry using foundry casters

                        A type foundry is a place where metal is melted and cast in a mold. The
                        Monotype system can accurately be described as a complete type foundry.

                        Claims of type founders regarding the hardness and quality of their type are
                        notoriously suspect. Keystone claimed to be the inventors and sole makers of
                        Nickel-Alloy Type. Barnhart Bros & Spindler made Superior Copper Mixed Type.
                        The amount of those metals in type was probably negligible. Only a few
                        foundries ever actually revealed the proportions of the various metals used in
                        their type.

                        Type metal varies from soft to hard, to brittle, depending on the relative
                        quantities of lead, tin, and antimony. Considering just the inherent hardness
                        of the metal, Dale Guild metal is essentially the same as type made from
                        recycled ATF metal. So even the occasional casting done here at Denver Back Alley
                        Type uses "hard metal." The type offered by Skyline type, also, is cast with
                        hard metal, essentially identical to the metal used at Dale Guild.

                        The key differences, besides the metal formula, are the casting machines
                        involved and the knowledge and attention of the worker, and the protocols being
                        followed such as casting speed and temperature and adjustments to the
                        machinery. A Barth caster, and a Thompson caster for that matter, will make harder
                        type than my antique Monotype because they cast with greater pressure. But I
                        expect any type I cast will out-live me.

                        While Stephenson Blake described itself as The Last of the Old English Type
                        Founders, Mouldtype's monotype was The Best in Any Case. While MacKellar,
                        Smiths & Jordan accurately claimed status as the Oldest American Type Foundry,
                        anyone who casts type today might honorably be described as Successor to
                        Gutenberg and Garamond.

                        At Now It's Up To You, we cast type out of thin air.


                        Tom Parson/ Now It's Up To You/ Denver Back Alley Type Foundry
                        157 S Logan, Denver CO 80209
                        (303) 777-8951
                        (720) 480-5358 cellphone
                        _typetom@..._ (mailto:typetom@...)







                        **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
                        steps!
                        (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1219957551x1201325337/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
                        %3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.