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Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

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  • Fritz Klinke
    I have no idea how soy inks work in letterpress as I ve never used it, but one thing that I have done when faced with a similar problem is to try something
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
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      I have no idea how soy inks work in letterpress as I've never used it, but one thing that I have done when faced with a similar problem is to try something different--try another type of ink, and oil and rubber are the remaining choices, and sometimes when it seems to be the problem of a particular color as different pigments sometimes print differently, is to change color. And as a very recent thread discussed tac reducer, something like that may also work in the case of larger solids. There are sometimes compatibility issues between ink and paper, and try another type or finish of paper to see if that's an issue. And then there's the issue of ink/roller compatibility. And this happens when an ink just won't work with a particular roller material. Not all rollers work well with all types of ink. Since I have access to various rollers, I have the luxury of changing out rollers if I run into a problem and I'm dead set on a type of ink or committed to a certain paper.

      I guess there is still another ink being used and that's acrylic, and I do have some in stock but have not tried it yet in letterpress. The rollers Jill is using are Vinylith, and I've had great success with them on my Miehle Vertical where I first tried them out and continue to use them with no problem, but I usually print with oil based ink as a personal preference. Another roller material we have used on several thousand rollers is the blue Rhyno material, and as that roller company is closing its doors for good February 27, this Friday--Rollcrafters in Indianapolis--I'm going to have to find another source for that. We also use Buna-N as an excellent material and that's what almost all of the Vandercook rollers we sell are made from. It is also an excellent material for regular rollers as well.

      There has been at least one or two printers who have had problems with every one of the different types of material we provide. I have no logical explanation, and when I've sent a sample roller back to the roller maker along with a sample of the ink used, they have been at a loss for an explanation as well. A lot depends on experience and the ability to shift gears to try another approach. And occasionally it is a material problem in the rollers, ink, or paper.

      Fritz

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jill Velez
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing


      fritz, we got the rollers from you, so i think i must have given the wrong name for the rollers! argh. oh well:). i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the ghosting.
      jill

      --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Fritz Klinke <nagraph@...> wrote:
      From: Fritz Klinke <nagraph@...>
      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 8:20 PM

      One clue to this problem is that Jill is using only 2 rollers, and generally speaking, all three should be used. It is false economy to not use a press as designed to its full design capability, and with the platens, 3 rollers prove to provide more effective inking. I'm not sure what ploylith is, but any reasonably soft and receptive ink roller covering should do an adequate job of inking except where the image area is stripping the ink off an image area that is bigger than the circumference of the roller--and that's where the additional oscillating ink rider rollers are useful, but harder than hell to find for these presses.

      fritz

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Jill

      To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com

      Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:16 AM

      Subject: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

      This is going to be hard to explain - I am getting a shadow print on

      my printed pieces. I may have to post a picture to help clarify, but

      instead of a smooth constant coverage, the image seems to carry more

      ink in certain spots. It looks like the rollers carry the ink over

      the plate, the plate presses into the paper, and then the rollers run

      up to grab more ink but doesn't roll back over the plate in the exact

      same spot on the roller, causing ink to be heavier in spots around the

      edge of the image. This is really obvious when i print a block of

      color with white text in the middle. I will get a shadow of the

      printed word in the middle of the block of color. This has been

      happening for quite some time, but as I've paid more attention to the

      work of other pressmen, I don't see this shadow print in their final

      product. I'm pressing on an 8x12 C&P with 2 polylith rollers, using

      soy inks. Thoughts on this? And let me know if I need to post a pic!

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gerald Lange
      When I recently had some rollers recovered I was asked if I intended to use soy inks as they required a different formulation of material. The term used by the
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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        When I recently had some rollers recovered I was asked if I intended
        to use soy inks as they required a different formulation of material.
        The term used by the rep was that they were "aggressive" on the
        material I normally spec. Not exactly sure what that means. From what
        I have read about them there is no regulated standard as to what
        proportion of soy needs to be in an ink to qualify it as a soy ink. In
        terms of it being "green," environmentalists are increasingly opposed
        to soy as it is one of the main crops grown on cleared Amazon rain
        forest land.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

        >
        > I have no idea how soy inks work in letterpress as I've never used
        it, but one thing that I have done when faced with a similar problem
        is to try something different--try another type of ink, and oil and
        rubber are the remaining choices, and sometimes when it seems to be
        the problem of a particular color as different pigments sometimes
        print differently, is to change color. And as a very recent thread
        discussed tac reducer, something like that may also work in the case
        of larger solids. There are sometimes compatibility issues between ink
        and paper, and try another type or finish of paper to see if that's an
        issue. And then there's the issue of ink/roller compatibility. And
        this happens when an ink just won't work with a particular roller
        material. Not all rollers work well with all types of ink. Since I
        have access to various rollers, I have the luxury of changing out
        rollers if I run into a problem and I'm dead set on a type of ink or
        committed to a certain paper.
        >
        > I guess there is still another ink being used and that's acrylic,
        and I do have some in stock but have not tried it yet in letterpress.
        The rollers Jill is using are Vinylith, and I've had great success
        with them on my Miehle Vertical where I first tried them out and
        continue to use them with no problem, but I usually print with oil
        based ink as a personal preference. Another roller material we have
        used on several thousand rollers is the blue Rhyno material, and as
        that roller company is closing its doors for good February 27, this
        Friday--Rollcrafters in Indianapolis--I'm going to have to find
        another source for that. We also use Buna-N as an excellent material
        and that's what almost all of the Vandercook rollers we sell are made
        from. It is also an excellent material for regular rollers as well.
        >
        > There has been at least one or two printers who have had problems
        with every one of the different types of material we provide. I have
        no logical explanation, and when I've sent a sample roller back to the
        roller maker along with a sample of the ink used, they have been at a
        loss for an explanation as well. A lot depends on experience and the
        ability to shift gears to try another approach. And occasionally it is
        a material problem in the rollers, ink, or paper.
        >
        > Fritz
        >
      • Graham and Kathy
        If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to fit a rider roller , as this really helps to break up the ink distribution on the
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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          If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to
          fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink distribution
          on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress List
          if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how
          this is done.

          However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not suited
          to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both
          the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble. Really
          you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to what
          the machine was intended to produce.


          Graham Moss

          Incline Press
          36 Bow Street
          Oldham OL1 1SJ England

          http://www.inclinepress.com






          On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@...> wrote:

          > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the
          > ghosting.
          > jill
        • Peter Fraterdeus
          Hi, Graham! I should have read your note before I wrote mine ;-) Yeah. What He Says! P.
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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            Hi, Graham!

            I should have read your note before I wrote mine ;-)

            Yeah. What He Says!

            P.


            On 27 Feb 2009, at 3:30 AM, Graham and Kathy wrote:

            > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you
            > need to
            > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink
            > distribution
            > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the
            > Letterpress List
            > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site
            > showing how
            > this is done.
            >
            > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is
            > not suited
            > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work.
            > Both
            > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and
            > trouble. Really
            > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do
            > to what
            > the machine was intended to produce.
            >
            >
            > Graham Moss
            >
            > Incline Press
            > 36 Bow Street
            > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
            >
            > http://www.inclinepress.com
            >
          • Lance Williams
            Here s the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on top of the two rollers for a rider. http://www.twopiglets.com/kluge/parts/#pyramid If
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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              Here's the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on
              top of the two rollers for a rider.

              http://www.twopiglets.com/kluge/parts/#pyramid

              If I were doing this, I would opt for a roller with about 1/2 the
              diameter of the form rollers so you get better ink distribution. The
              vibrator rollers (riders) that were made for these presses are mounted on a
              screw shaft that rolls the 7/8" roller back and forth across the surface of
              the form rollers as they run up and down on the press.... Very effective
              in improving ink coverage on solids, but still not as effective as printing
              on a cylinder press....

              - Lance Williams
              Williams Stationery Co.
              Camden, New York
              APA #785



              > [Original Message]
              > From: Graham and Kathy <kwhalen.incline@...>
              > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
              > Date: 2/27/2009 4:32:53 AM
              > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
              >
              > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to
              > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink
              distribution
              > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress
              List
              > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how
              > this is done.
              >
              > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not
              suited
              > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both
              > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble.
              Really
              > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to
              what
              > the machine was intended to produce.
              >
              >
              > Graham Moss
              >
              > Incline Press
              > 36 Bow Street
              > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
              >
              > http://www.inclinepress.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@...> wrote:
              >
              > > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the
              > > ghosting.
              > > jill
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • lamsland1@comcast.net
              Excellant link!! Thank you. I ve been toying with the idea of getting an oscillating roller off a small offset press and figuring out how to mount it. This is
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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                Excellant link!! Thank you. I've been toying with the idea of getting an oscillating roller off a small offset press and figuring out how to mount it. This is great info.
                Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                Thomas Jefferson

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Lance Williams" <lwwill7999@...>
                To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:16:43 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

                Here's the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on
                top of the two rollers for a rider.

                http://www.twopiglets.com/kluge/parts/#pyramid

                If I were doing this, I would opt for a roller with about 1/2 the
                diameter of the form rollers so you get better ink distribution. The
                vibrator rollers (riders) that were made for these presses are mounted on a
                screw shaft that rolls the 7/8" roller back and forth across the surface of
                the form rollers as they run up and down on the press.... Very effective
                in improving ink coverage on solids, but still not as effective as printing
                on a cylinder press....

                - Lance Williams
                Williams Stationery Co.
                Camden, New York
                APA #785

                > [Original Message]
                > From: Graham and Kathy <kwhalen.incline@...>
                > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: 2/27/2009 4:32:53 AM
                > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
                >
                > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to
                > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink
                distribution
                > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress
                List
                > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how
                > this is done.
                >
                > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not
                suited
                > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both
                > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble.
                Really
                > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to
                what
                > the machine was intended to produce.
                >
                >
                > Graham Moss
                >
                > Incline Press
                > 36 Bow Street
                > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                >
                > http://www.inclinepress.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@...> wrote:
                >
                > > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the
                > > ghosting.
                > > jill
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jill Velez
                that is an awesome reference, thank you! does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers?  as fritz said, i m using his
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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                  that is an awesome reference, thank you!
                  does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers?  as fritz said, i'm using his vinolith rollers.

                  Velez Family Blog: http://velez-family.blogspot.com/


                  --- On Fri, 2/27/09, lamsland1@... <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                  From: lamsland1@... <lamsland1@...>
                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 6:32 AM












                  Excellant link!! Thank you. I've been toying with the idea of getting an oscillating roller off a small offset press and figuring out how to mount it. This is great info.

                  Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux

                  Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae



                  Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.

                  Thomas Jefferson



                  ----- Original Message -----

                  From: "Lance Williams" <lwwill7999@earthlin k.net>

                  To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com

                  Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:16:43 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing



                  Here's the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on

                  top of the two rollers for a rider.



                  http://www.twopigle ts.com/kluge/ parts/#pyramid



                  If I were doing this, I would opt for a roller with about 1/2 the

                  diameter of the form rollers so you get better ink distribution. The

                  vibrator rollers (riders) that were made for these presses are mounted on a

                  screw shaft that rolls the 7/8" roller back and forth across the surface of

                  the form rollers as they run up and down on the press.... Very effective

                  in improving ink coverage on solids, but still not as effective as printing

                  on a cylinder press....



                  - Lance Williams

                  Williams Stationery Co.

                  Camden, New York

                  APA #785



                  > [Original Message]

                  > From: Graham and Kathy <kwhalen.incline@ VIRGIN.NET>

                  > To: <PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com>

                  > Date: 2/27/2009 4:32:53 AM

                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

                  >

                  > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to

                  > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink

                  distribution

                  > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress

                  List

                  > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how

                  > this is done.

                  >

                  > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not

                  suited

                  > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both

                  > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble.

                  Really

                  > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to

                  what

                  > the machine was intended to produce.

                  >

                  >

                  > Graham Moss

                  >

                  > Incline Press

                  > 36 Bow Street

                  > Oldham OL1 1SJ England

                  >

                  > http://www.inclinep ress.com

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  >

                  > > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the

                  > > ghosting.

                  > > jill

                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • parallel_imp
                  ... Normally you don t place rubber rollers in contact with other rubber rollers, or metal rollers with metal rollers. Soft against hard against soft is best
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jill Velez <foofnik79@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers? 

                    Normally you don't place rubber rollers in contact with other rubber rollers, or metal rollers
                    with metal rollers. Soft against hard against soft is best for the rollers and for distribution.
                    But any rider roller on a C&P would make a huge improvement in inking. Best position is
                    contacting the lower form roller, which is the last to leave the form.
                    --Eric Holub, SF
                  • Jill Velez
                    thanks so much everyone, this has been a HUGE help! jill ... From: parallel_imp Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: shadows printing To:
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
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                      thanks so much everyone, this has been a HUGE help!
                      jill



                      --- On Fri, 2/27/09, parallel_imp <Megalonyx@...> wrote:
                      From: parallel_imp <Megalonyx@...>
                      Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: shadows printing
                      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 9:34 AM












                      --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, Jill Velez <foofnik79@. ..> wrote:

                      >

                      > does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers? 



                      Normally you don't place rubber rollers in contact with other rubber rollers, or metal rollers

                      with metal rollers. Soft against hard against soft is best for the rollers and for distribution.

                      But any rider roller on a C&P would make a huge improvement in inking. Best position is

                      contacting the lower form roller, which is the last to leave the form.

                      --Eric Holub, SF































                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sylvia chevrier
                      I have only printed thus far with rubber-based ink on my Vandercook, and would like to begin experimenting with other ink types. I d like to try acrylic next,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 20, 2009
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                        I have only printed thus far with rubber-based ink on my Vandercook,
                        and would like to begin experimenting with other ink types. I'd like
                        to try acrylic next, and am wondering if anyone can recommend a good
                        brand, and also tell me what's best to use for roller clean up.

                        Many thanks!
                        Sylvia
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