Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

Expand Messages
  • Jill Velez
    fritz, we got the rollers from you, so i think i must have given the wrong name for the rollers!  argh.  oh well:).  i have tried it with 3 rollers too and
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      fritz, we got the rollers from you, so i think i must have given the wrong name for the rollers!  argh.  oh well:).  i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the ghosting.
      jill



      --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Fritz Klinke <nagraph@...> wrote:
      From: Fritz Klinke <nagraph@...>
      Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
      To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 8:20 PM












      One clue to this problem is that Jill is using only 2 rollers, and generally speaking, all three should be used. It is false economy to not use a press as designed to its full design capability, and with the platens, 3 rollers prove to provide more effective inking. I'm not sure what ploylith is, but any reasonably soft and receptive ink roller covering should do an adequate job of inking except where the image area is stripping the ink off an image area that is bigger than the circumference of the roller--and that's where the additional oscillating ink rider rollers are useful, but harder than hell to find for these presses.



      fritz



      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Jill

      To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com

      Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:16 AM

      Subject: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing



      This is going to be hard to explain - I am getting a shadow print on

      my printed pieces. I may have to post a picture to help clarify, but

      instead of a smooth constant coverage, the image seems to carry more

      ink in certain spots. It looks like the rollers carry the ink over

      the plate, the plate presses into the paper, and then the rollers run

      up to grab more ink but doesn't roll back over the plate in the exact

      same spot on the roller, causing ink to be heavier in spots around the

      edge of the image. This is really obvious when i print a block of

      color with white text in the middle. I will get a shadow of the

      printed word in the middle of the block of color. This has been

      happening for quite some time, but as I've paid more attention to the

      work of other pressmen, I don't see this shadow print in their final

      product. I'm pressing on an 8x12 C&P with 2 polylith rollers, using

      soy inks. Thoughts on this? And let me know if I need to post a pic!



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Fritz Klinke
      I have no idea how soy inks work in letterpress as I ve never used it, but one thing that I have done when faced with a similar problem is to try something
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        I have no idea how soy inks work in letterpress as I've never used it, but one thing that I have done when faced with a similar problem is to try something different--try another type of ink, and oil and rubber are the remaining choices, and sometimes when it seems to be the problem of a particular color as different pigments sometimes print differently, is to change color. And as a very recent thread discussed tac reducer, something like that may also work in the case of larger solids. There are sometimes compatibility issues between ink and paper, and try another type or finish of paper to see if that's an issue. And then there's the issue of ink/roller compatibility. And this happens when an ink just won't work with a particular roller material. Not all rollers work well with all types of ink. Since I have access to various rollers, I have the luxury of changing out rollers if I run into a problem and I'm dead set on a type of ink or committed to a certain paper.

        I guess there is still another ink being used and that's acrylic, and I do have some in stock but have not tried it yet in letterpress. The rollers Jill is using are Vinylith, and I've had great success with them on my Miehle Vertical where I first tried them out and continue to use them with no problem, but I usually print with oil based ink as a personal preference. Another roller material we have used on several thousand rollers is the blue Rhyno material, and as that roller company is closing its doors for good February 27, this Friday--Rollcrafters in Indianapolis--I'm going to have to find another source for that. We also use Buna-N as an excellent material and that's what almost all of the Vandercook rollers we sell are made from. It is also an excellent material for regular rollers as well.

        There has been at least one or two printers who have had problems with every one of the different types of material we provide. I have no logical explanation, and when I've sent a sample roller back to the roller maker along with a sample of the ink used, they have been at a loss for an explanation as well. A lot depends on experience and the ability to shift gears to try another approach. And occasionally it is a material problem in the rollers, ink, or paper.

        Fritz

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Jill Velez
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 10:29 PM
        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing


        fritz, we got the rollers from you, so i think i must have given the wrong name for the rollers! argh. oh well:). i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the ghosting.
        jill

        --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Fritz Klinke <nagraph@...> wrote:
        From: Fritz Klinke <nagraph@...>
        Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 8:20 PM

        One clue to this problem is that Jill is using only 2 rollers, and generally speaking, all three should be used. It is false economy to not use a press as designed to its full design capability, and with the platens, 3 rollers prove to provide more effective inking. I'm not sure what ploylith is, but any reasonably soft and receptive ink roller covering should do an adequate job of inking except where the image area is stripping the ink off an image area that is bigger than the circumference of the roller--and that's where the additional oscillating ink rider rollers are useful, but harder than hell to find for these presses.

        fritz

        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Jill

        To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com

        Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:16 AM

        Subject: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

        This is going to be hard to explain - I am getting a shadow print on

        my printed pieces. I may have to post a picture to help clarify, but

        instead of a smooth constant coverage, the image seems to carry more

        ink in certain spots. It looks like the rollers carry the ink over

        the plate, the plate presses into the paper, and then the rollers run

        up to grab more ink but doesn't roll back over the plate in the exact

        same spot on the roller, causing ink to be heavier in spots around the

        edge of the image. This is really obvious when i print a block of

        color with white text in the middle. I will get a shadow of the

        printed word in the middle of the block of color. This has been

        happening for quite some time, but as I've paid more attention to the

        work of other pressmen, I don't see this shadow print in their final

        product. I'm pressing on an 8x12 C&P with 2 polylith rollers, using

        soy inks. Thoughts on this? And let me know if I need to post a pic!

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gerald Lange
        When I recently had some rollers recovered I was asked if I intended to use soy inks as they required a different formulation of material. The term used by the
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          When I recently had some rollers recovered I was asked if I intended
          to use soy inks as they required a different formulation of material.
          The term used by the rep was that they were "aggressive" on the
          material I normally spec. Not exactly sure what that means. From what
          I have read about them there is no regulated standard as to what
          proportion of soy needs to be in an ink to qualify it as a soy ink. In
          terms of it being "green," environmentalists are increasingly opposed
          to soy as it is one of the main crops grown on cleared Amazon rain
          forest land.

          Gerald
          http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

          >
          > I have no idea how soy inks work in letterpress as I've never used
          it, but one thing that I have done when faced with a similar problem
          is to try something different--try another type of ink, and oil and
          rubber are the remaining choices, and sometimes when it seems to be
          the problem of a particular color as different pigments sometimes
          print differently, is to change color. And as a very recent thread
          discussed tac reducer, something like that may also work in the case
          of larger solids. There are sometimes compatibility issues between ink
          and paper, and try another type or finish of paper to see if that's an
          issue. And then there's the issue of ink/roller compatibility. And
          this happens when an ink just won't work with a particular roller
          material. Not all rollers work well with all types of ink. Since I
          have access to various rollers, I have the luxury of changing out
          rollers if I run into a problem and I'm dead set on a type of ink or
          committed to a certain paper.
          >
          > I guess there is still another ink being used and that's acrylic,
          and I do have some in stock but have not tried it yet in letterpress.
          The rollers Jill is using are Vinylith, and I've had great success
          with them on my Miehle Vertical where I first tried them out and
          continue to use them with no problem, but I usually print with oil
          based ink as a personal preference. Another roller material we have
          used on several thousand rollers is the blue Rhyno material, and as
          that roller company is closing its doors for good February 27, this
          Friday--Rollcrafters in Indianapolis--I'm going to have to find
          another source for that. We also use Buna-N as an excellent material
          and that's what almost all of the Vandercook rollers we sell are made
          from. It is also an excellent material for regular rollers as well.
          >
          > There has been at least one or two printers who have had problems
          with every one of the different types of material we provide. I have
          no logical explanation, and when I've sent a sample roller back to the
          roller maker along with a sample of the ink used, they have been at a
          loss for an explanation as well. A lot depends on experience and the
          ability to shift gears to try another approach. And occasionally it is
          a material problem in the rollers, ink, or paper.
          >
          > Fritz
          >
        • Graham and Kathy
          If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to fit a rider roller , as this really helps to break up the ink distribution on the
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to
            fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink distribution
            on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress List
            if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how
            this is done.

            However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not suited
            to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both
            the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble. Really
            you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to what
            the machine was intended to produce.


            Graham Moss

            Incline Press
            36 Bow Street
            Oldham OL1 1SJ England

            http://www.inclinepress.com






            On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@...> wrote:

            > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the
            > ghosting.
            > jill
          • Peter Fraterdeus
            Hi, Graham! I should have read your note before I wrote mine ;-) Yeah. What He Says! P.
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi, Graham!

              I should have read your note before I wrote mine ;-)

              Yeah. What He Says!

              P.


              On 27 Feb 2009, at 3:30 AM, Graham and Kathy wrote:

              > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you
              > need to
              > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink
              > distribution
              > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the
              > Letterpress List
              > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site
              > showing how
              > this is done.
              >
              > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is
              > not suited
              > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work.
              > Both
              > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and
              > trouble. Really
              > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do
              > to what
              > the machine was intended to produce.
              >
              >
              > Graham Moss
              >
              > Incline Press
              > 36 Bow Street
              > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
              >
              > http://www.inclinepress.com
              >
            • Lance Williams
              Here s the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on top of the two rollers for a rider. http://www.twopiglets.com/kluge/parts/#pyramid If
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Here's the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on
                top of the two rollers for a rider.

                http://www.twopiglets.com/kluge/parts/#pyramid

                If I were doing this, I would opt for a roller with about 1/2 the
                diameter of the form rollers so you get better ink distribution. The
                vibrator rollers (riders) that were made for these presses are mounted on a
                screw shaft that rolls the 7/8" roller back and forth across the surface of
                the form rollers as they run up and down on the press.... Very effective
                in improving ink coverage on solids, but still not as effective as printing
                on a cylinder press....

                - Lance Williams
                Williams Stationery Co.
                Camden, New York
                APA #785



                > [Original Message]
                > From: Graham and Kathy <kwhalen.incline@...>
                > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                > Date: 2/27/2009 4:32:53 AM
                > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
                >
                > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to
                > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink
                distribution
                > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress
                List
                > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how
                > this is done.
                >
                > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not
                suited
                > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both
                > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble.
                Really
                > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to
                what
                > the machine was intended to produce.
                >
                >
                > Graham Moss
                >
                > Incline Press
                > 36 Bow Street
                > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                >
                > http://www.inclinepress.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@...> wrote:
                >
                > > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the
                > > ghosting.
                > > jill
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • lamsland1@comcast.net
                Excellant link!! Thank you. I ve been toying with the idea of getting an oscillating roller off a small offset press and figuring out how to mount it. This is
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Excellant link!! Thank you. I've been toying with the idea of getting an oscillating roller off a small offset press and figuring out how to mount it. This is great info.
                  Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                  Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                  Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                  Thomas Jefferson

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Lance Williams" <lwwill7999@...>
                  To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:16:43 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                  Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

                  Here's the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on
                  top of the two rollers for a rider.

                  http://www.twopiglets.com/kluge/parts/#pyramid

                  If I were doing this, I would opt for a roller with about 1/2 the
                  diameter of the form rollers so you get better ink distribution. The
                  vibrator rollers (riders) that were made for these presses are mounted on a
                  screw shaft that rolls the 7/8" roller back and forth across the surface of
                  the form rollers as they run up and down on the press.... Very effective
                  in improving ink coverage on solids, but still not as effective as printing
                  on a cylinder press....

                  - Lance Williams
                  Williams Stationery Co.
                  Camden, New York
                  APA #785

                  > [Original Message]
                  > From: Graham and Kathy <kwhalen.incline@...>
                  > To: <PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: 2/27/2009 4:32:53 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
                  >
                  > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to
                  > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink
                  distribution
                  > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress
                  List
                  > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how
                  > this is done.
                  >
                  > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not
                  suited
                  > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both
                  > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble.
                  Really
                  > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to
                  what
                  > the machine was intended to produce.
                  >
                  >
                  > Graham Moss
                  >
                  > Incline Press
                  > 36 Bow Street
                  > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                  >
                  > http://www.inclinepress.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the
                  > > ghosting.
                  > > jill
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jill Velez
                  that is an awesome reference, thank you! does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers?  as fritz said, i m using his
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    that is an awesome reference, thank you!
                    does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers?  as fritz said, i'm using his vinolith rollers.

                    Velez Family Blog: http://velez-family.blogspot.com/


                    --- On Fri, 2/27/09, lamsland1@... <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                    From: lamsland1@... <lamsland1@...>
                    Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing
                    To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 6:32 AM












                    Excellant link!! Thank you. I've been toying with the idea of getting an oscillating roller off a small offset press and figuring out how to mount it. This is great info.

                    Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux

                    Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae



                    Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.

                    Thomas Jefferson



                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: "Lance Williams" <lwwill7999@earthlin k.net>

                    To: PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com

                    Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:16:43 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern

                    Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing



                    Here's the link to how Leonard Molberg mounted a third standard roller on

                    top of the two rollers for a rider.



                    http://www.twopigle ts.com/kluge/ parts/#pyramid



                    If I were doing this, I would opt for a roller with about 1/2 the

                    diameter of the form rollers so you get better ink distribution. The

                    vibrator rollers (riders) that were made for these presses are mounted on a

                    screw shaft that rolls the 7/8" roller back and forth across the surface of

                    the form rollers as they run up and down on the press.... Very effective

                    in improving ink coverage on solids, but still not as effective as printing

                    on a cylinder press....



                    - Lance Williams

                    Williams Stationery Co.

                    Camden, New York

                    APA #785



                    > [Original Message]

                    > From: Graham and Kathy <kwhalen.incline@ VIRGIN.NET>

                    > To: <PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com>

                    > Date: 2/27/2009 4:32:53 AM

                    > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] shadows printing

                    >

                    > If you are determined to get this right without double inking, you need to

                    > fit a 'rider roller', as this really helps to break up the ink

                    distribution

                    > on the rollers. Someone - and you might have to ask on the Letterpress

                    List

                    > if the source isn't forthcoming in a response here, has a site showing how

                    > this is done.

                    >

                    > However, large areas of solid are a printing/design style that is not

                    suited

                    > to platen presses - they were never intended for that style of work. Both

                    > the above methods help you get there, but take more time and trouble.

                    Really

                    > you need a cylinder press, or change the styles of work you offer/do to

                    what

                    > the machine was intended to produce.

                    >

                    >

                    > Graham Moss

                    >

                    > Incline Press

                    > 36 Bow Street

                    > Oldham OL1 1SJ England

                    >

                    > http://www.inclinep ress.com

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    >

                    > On 27/2/09 05:29, "Jill Velez" <foofnik79@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    >

                    > > i have tried it with 3 rollers too and the same thing happens with the

                    > > ghosting.

                    > > jill

                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • parallel_imp
                    ... Normally you don t place rubber rollers in contact with other rubber rollers, or metal rollers with metal rollers. Soft against hard against soft is best
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Jill Velez <foofnik79@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers? 

                      Normally you don't place rubber rollers in contact with other rubber rollers, or metal rollers
                      with metal rollers. Soft against hard against soft is best for the rollers and for distribution.
                      But any rider roller on a C&P would make a huge improvement in inking. Best position is
                      contacting the lower form roller, which is the last to leave the form.
                      --Eric Holub, SF
                    • Jill Velez
                      thanks so much everyone, this has been a HUGE help! jill ... From: parallel_imp Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: shadows printing To:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 27, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        thanks so much everyone, this has been a HUGE help!
                        jill



                        --- On Fri, 2/27/09, parallel_imp <Megalonyx@...> wrote:
                        From: parallel_imp <Megalonyx@...>
                        Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: shadows printing
                        To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, February 27, 2009, 9:34 AM












                        --- In PPLetterpress@ yahoogroups. com, Jill Velez <foofnik79@. ..> wrote:

                        >

                        > does the rider roller need to be made of the same material as the rest of the rollers? 



                        Normally you don't place rubber rollers in contact with other rubber rollers, or metal rollers

                        with metal rollers. Soft against hard against soft is best for the rollers and for distribution.

                        But any rider roller on a C&P would make a huge improvement in inking. Best position is

                        contacting the lower form roller, which is the last to leave the form.

                        --Eric Holub, SF































                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • sylvia chevrier
                        I have only printed thus far with rubber-based ink on my Vandercook, and would like to begin experimenting with other ink types. I d like to try acrylic next,
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 20, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I have only printed thus far with rubber-based ink on my Vandercook,
                          and would like to begin experimenting with other ink types. I'd like
                          to try acrylic next, and am wondering if anyone can recommend a good
                          brand, and also tell me what's best to use for roller clean up.

                          Many thanks!
                          Sylvia
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.