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Re: Wash out temp and brushes

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  • parallel_imp
    ... It does vary with material and method. Manufacturer s spec for Miraclon is 95, and for Rigilon, 105, when using brush washout. (With spray washout, 80 and
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 10, 2009
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      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
      >
      > There is some latitude. 95 seems a bit high.

      It does vary with material and method. Manufacturer's spec for Miraclon is 95, and for
      Rigilon, 105, when using brush washout. (With spray washout, 80 and 84 respectively, at 55
      psi).
      When hand-processing, I will fill a bucket with 105 water, and replenish the water in the
      washout tray a couple times for each plate, because it does cool off quickly. So the
      temperature of the bath would vary from say 95 or 100 to 75 or 80 while washing a given
      plate. For me hand washout takes a minute longer than machine washout using Rigilon 145.
      The problem with cool water is that the unexposed photopolymer takes longer to wash off,
      and the longer in the bath, the exposed plate material can take on moisture as well, and fine
      elements like serifs or periods can get brushed off. If you are doing coarse work, big solids
      or reverses, there are no fine details to lose.
      --Eric Holub, SF
    • Gerald Lange
      Eric Are you using Rigilon for letterpress plates? Aren t these for moulding? And Miraclon, man, that is way back there. Probably one of the first
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 10, 2009
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        Eric

        Are you using Rigilon for letterpress plates? Aren't these for
        moulding? And Miraclon, man, that is way back there. Probably one of
        the first water-washouts. An oldie but goodie I suppose.

        I'd never thought about the problem of heat loss during hand washout.
        I suppose that should be a significant consideration. I preheat my
        machine to near 90 degrees but when I run a preliminary washout to
        clean out the hot and cold spots it drops down to 80+ for the duration
        of the work day. I never considered that need for energy consistency,
        or guess I just assumed it.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "parallel_imp" <Megalonyx@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
        > >
        > > There is some latitude. 95 seems a bit high.
        >
        > It does vary with material and method. Manufacturer's spec for
        Miraclon is 95, and for
        > Rigilon, 105, when using brush washout. (With spray washout, 80 and
        84 respectively, at 55
        > psi).
        > When hand-processing, I will fill a bucket with 105 water, and
        replenish the water in the
        > washout tray a couple times for each plate, because it does cool off
        quickly. So the
        > temperature of the bath would vary from say 95 or 100 to 75 or 80
        while washing a given
        > plate. For me hand washout takes a minute longer than machine
        washout using Rigilon 145.
        > The problem with cool water is that the unexposed photopolymer
        takes longer to wash off,
        > and the longer in the bath, the exposed plate material can take on
        moisture as well, and fine
        > elements like serifs or periods can get brushed off. If you are
        doing coarse work, big solids
        > or reverses, there are no fine details to lose.
        > --Eric Holub, SF
        >
      • vanhorn_k
        We have an Interflex brand from a few years ago... We learned the hard way one day not to leave it on and walk away - it cooked off all the water proceeded to
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
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          We have an Interflex brand from a few years ago...

          We learned the hard way one day not to leave it on and walk away - it cooked off all the
          water proceeded to try to set dried polymer on fire. From then on we just turned off the
          heater and do all our washouts in cold water... Cold cold. Probably 40-60 degrees,
          depending on the season.

          It takes longer, but I have never lost a 1/4 pt line, serif, or apostrophe... and we've burned
          down to 4pt. type before.

          On the other hand, perhaps some warmer water would speed up the washout... Most plates
          wash in the 7-9 min range, depending on what the students have done with the brush
          height.

          uɹoɥ uɐʌ əןλʞ
          http://www.kylevanhorn.com
        • parallel_imp
          ... Actually, my first Miraclon plates came from a rubber stamp supplier who sold THEM as molding plates. I stayed with Miraclon, from Becker, for years. While
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
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            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
            >
            > Eric
            >
            > Are you using Rigilon for letterpress plates? Aren't these for
            > moulding? And Miraclon, man, that is way back there.

            Actually, my first Miraclon plates came from a rubber stamp supplier
            who sold THEM as molding plates. I stayed with Miraclon, from Becker,
            for years. While working at a place that used MLD plates, our supplier
            A-V started shipping Rigilon HX 145 instead of MLD. I switched to HX
            myself, and it happens that some well-known deep-impression job
            printers in the area were already using it. It has a matte surface for
            better drawdown without matte film, and it has a contrasting surface
            that is easy to read; flaws on the all-yellow Miraclon are tricky to
            detect.
            But I have started using Miraclon again, the DS 100, which thickness
            mounts nicely on blank Linotype slugs in a mixed form. It also holds
            detail well; I reproduced some old wood engravings in it, and a single
            exposure held shadow, mid, and highlight detail. In the past, with
            thicker plates, I have needed masking and multiple exposures for such
            images.
            --Eric Holub, SF
          • typetom@aol.com
            Hi Gerald, I have been using Miraclon from Gene Becker ever since (at least 7 or 8 years)... Works fine with my home exposure and hand-washout methods.
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
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              Hi Gerald,
              I have been using Miraclon from Gene Becker ever since (at least 7 or 8
              years)... Works fine with my home exposure and hand-washout methods. (Exposure
              time, good plate contact with the negative, washout time, are all rather
              critical but within reasonable limits. Water temperature and brushing motions, not
              so critical).

              Can you summarize the changes and/or supposed advantages of the more recent
              plate materials?
              Are the differences substantive or mainly proprietary-commercial?
              Are they developments due to machine exposure/washout conditions?

              Thanks, Tom



              In a message dated 1/10/2009 11:42:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
              Bieler@... writes:

              And Miraclon, man, that is way back there. Probably one of
              the first water-washouts. An oldie but goodie I suppose.

              **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • parallel_imp
              ... Wow, that s pretty extreme. I ve only worked with BASF and Polimero machines, and neither had such a high temperature that you couldn t leave them on all
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
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                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "vanhorn_k" <kvh@...> wrote:
                >
                > We have an Interflex brand from a few years ago...
                >
                > We learned the hard way one day not to leave it on and walk away - it cooked off all the
                > water proceeded to try to set dried polymer on fire.

                Wow, that's pretty extreme. I've only worked with BASF and Polimero machines, and neither
                had such a high temperature that you couldn't leave them on all day with minimal
                evaporation, at least with the lid closed. The Polimero machine has a safety that shuts off
                power if bath reaches a certain heat, as when someone turns it on without any water present.
                --Eric Holub, SF
              • vanhorn_k
                ... present. ... Yeah, I think our thermostat is broken. We got one of the first of these models available in the country... I ve dismantled it once or twice
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
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                  > Wow, that's pretty extreme. I've only worked with BASF and Polimero machines, and neither
                  > had such a high temperature that you couldn't leave them on all day with minimal
                  > evaporation, at least with the lid closed. The Polimero machine has a safety that shuts off
                  > power if bath reaches a certain heat, as when someone turns it on without any water
                  present.
                  > --Eric Holub, SF
                  >

                  Yeah, I think our thermostat is broken. We got one of the first of these models available in
                  the country... I've dismantled it once or twice already. Clearly we've decided it's not a big
                  deal.
                • Gerald Lange
                  Hi Tom Not sure I can answer that question. Except maybe with an example. When Toyobo changed its formulation a few years ago, the processing times for
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
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                    Hi Tom

                    Not sure I can answer that question. Except maybe with an example.
                    When Toyobo changed its formulation a few years ago, the processing
                    times for exposure and washout were reduced. Which seems a good thing,
                    energy wise, etc.

                    Can't say I noticed an increase in quality but I certainly did notice
                    there was no decrease. I picked up some of their technical studies
                    that have a lot of comparison photos; I put a few of them up in the
                    photo section a while back.

                    The photos seem to reveal cleaner more refined structure. Less debris
                    in the relief, less corrosion to the relief slope and printing
                    surface. more defined relief slope and drainage, more accurately
                    depicted printing surfaces, etc. At the microphotographic level it all
                    looks like an inprovement. And, since that is where all the action
                    takes place, I assume it is.

                    Not sure why Toyobo felt compelled to reformulate an existing and
                    successful product line but it may have something to do with the
                    ongoing developments toward improving filmless direct-to-plate
                    technology. That would seem to be the larger (future) market.

                    Gerald
                    http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@... wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Gerald,
                    > I have been using Miraclon from Gene Becker ever since (at least 7
                    or 8
                    > years)... Works fine with my home exposure and hand-washout methods.
                    (Exposure
                    > time, good plate contact with the negative, washout time, are all
                    rather
                    > critical but within reasonable limits. Water temperature and
                    brushing motions, not
                    > so critical).
                    >
                    > Can you summarize the changes and/or supposed advantages of the more
                    recent
                    > plate materials?
                    > Are the differences substantive or mainly proprietary-commercial?
                    > Are they developments due to machine exposure/washout conditions?
                    >
                    > Thanks, Tom
                    >
                    >
                  • Lamsland
                    great discussion guys. Thanks. My concern about the temp is I ll either have to get a mixing panel or just try and get it close with a thermometer and the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 12, 2009
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                      great discussion guys. Thanks. My concern about the temp is I'll
                      either have to get a mixing panel or just try and get it close with a
                      thermometer and the spigots. I'm sure the hot water in the house is
                      hot enough (120 degrees) I was more curious how precise it needed to be.

                      As for brushes, I can get an old matchprint developer/laminator
                      machine. The small table top kind. O know it's not made for this use,
                      but I like to tinker with machines and though it would be interesting
                      to experiment with. Thus the question if rotary bushes would work.

                      Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                      Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                      Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                      Thomas Jefferson

                      On Jan 11, 2009, at 10:48 PM, vanhorn_k wrote:

                      >
                      > > Wow, that's pretty extreme. I've only worked with BASF and
                      > Polimero machines, and neither
                      > > had such a high temperature that you couldn't leave them on all
                      > day with minimal
                      > > evaporation, at least with the lid closed. The Polimero machine
                      > has a safety that shuts off
                      > > power if bath reaches a certain heat, as when someone turns it on
                      > without any water
                      > present.
                      > > --Eric Holub, SF
                      > >
                      >
                      > Yeah, I think our thermostat is broken. We got one of the first of
                      > these models available in
                      > the country... I've dismantled it once or twice already. Clearly
                      > we've decided it's not a big
                      > deal.
                      >
                      >
                      >







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John G. Henry
                      1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate development over the weekend at the College Book Arts Assoc. 1st Biennial Conference in Iowa City,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 12, 2009
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                        1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                        development over the weekend at the College Book Arts Assoc. 1st
                        Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he washed out
                        his plates by hand using a stainless photographic developing tray in a
                        sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp somewhat
                        consistent. (Same process used in photo print development by hand.)

                        As to the motion of the brushes, or plate above the brushes, I assume
                        the orbital motion eliminates the chance for individual brush tufts to
                        continually interact with the same plate areas, causing the potential
                        for brush action to be more aggressive in a circular pattern. When
                        washing by hand, you would be wise to imitate the action of the machine
                        and not use totally circular or horizontal & vertical strokes on a
                        consistent basis.
                      • Peter Fraterdeus
                        ... Hi, John Sorry I missed Dan s demo on Saturday. I wonder if he has any online material for reference? I was interested in his use of stochastic patterns in
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 12, 2009
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                          On 12 Jan 2009, at 8:48 AM, John G. Henry wrote:

                          > 1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                          > development over the weekend at the College Book Arts Assoc. 1st
                          > Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he washed out
                          > his plates by hand using a stainless photographic developing tray in a
                          > sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp somewhat
                          > consistent. (Same process used in photo print development by hand.)

                          Hi, John

                          Sorry I missed Dan's demo on Saturday.
                          I wonder if he has any online material for reference?
                          I was interested in his use of stochastic patterns in Photoshop.

                          Cheers
                          PF


                          Peter Fraterdeus
                          Almost Freeā„¢ Business Cards from Exquisite Letterpress
                          http://slowprint.com/almostfreelp

                          New! SlowPrint Newsletter!
                          Signup: http://tinyurl.com/slowprint
                          Current: http://slowprint.com/slowprintnl
                        • Scott Golem
                          Hi, I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am a little slow at text
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
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                            Hi,

                            I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am a little slow at text messaging, blogging etc.

                            The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer to a question. How do you follow the trail backwards to get the whole story. Welcome to the 21 century.

                            SCott

                            Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@... slgolem1@... 972-617-3864


                            --- On Mon, 1/12/09, John G. Henry <JohnH@...> wrote:

                            > From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
                            > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Wash out temp and brushes
                            > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 8:48 AM
                            > 1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                            >
                            > development over the weekend at the College Book Arts
                            > Assoc. 1st
                            > Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he
                            > washed out
                            > his plates by hand using a stainless photographic
                            > developing tray in a
                            > sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp
                            > somewhat
                            > consistent. (Same process used in photo print development
                            > by hand.)
                            >
                            > As to the motion of the brushes, or plate above the
                            > brushes, I assume
                            > the orbital motion eliminates the chance for individual
                            > brush tufts to
                            > continually interact with the same plate areas, causing the
                            > potential
                            > for brush action to be more aggressive in a circular
                            > pattern. When
                            > washing by hand, you would be wise to imitate the action of
                            > the machine
                            > and not use totally circular or horizontal & vertical
                            > strokes on a
                            > consistent basis.
                          • Lamsland
                            easiest way is to actually go to yahoo s site. Find the groups link, then find the only for PPLetterpress. All the messages are there and you can do a search.
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
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                              easiest way is to actually go to yahoo's site. Find the groups link,
                              then find the only for PPLetterpress. All the messages are there and
                              you can do a search. .


                              Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                              Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                              Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                              Thomas Jefferson

                              On Jan 15, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Scott Golem wrote:

                              > Hi,
                              >
                              > I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running
                              > forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am
                              > a little slow at text messaging, blogging etc.
                              >
                              > The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer to a question.
                              > How do you follow the trail backwards to get the whole story.
                              > Welcome to the 21 century.
                              >
                              > SCott
                              >
                              > Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator
                              > www.sgolem@...1@... 972-617-3864
                              >
                              > --- On Mon, 1/12/09, John G. Henry <JohnH@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
                              > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Wash out temp and brushes
                              > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 8:48 AM
                              > > 1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                              > >
                              > > development over the weekend at the College Book Arts
                              > > Assoc. 1st
                              > > Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he
                              > > washed out
                              > > his plates by hand using a stainless photographic
                              > > developing tray in a
                              > > sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp
                              > > somewhat
                              > > consistent. (Same process used in photo print development
                              > > by hand.)
                              > >
                              > > As to the motion of the brushes, or plate above the
                              > > brushes, I assume
                              > > the orbital motion eliminates the chance for individual
                              > > brush tufts to
                              > > continually interact with the same plate areas, causing the
                              > > potential
                              > > for brush action to be more aggressive in a circular
                              > > pattern. When
                              > > washing by hand, you would be wise to imitate the action of
                              > > the machine
                              > > and not use totally circular or horizontal & vertical
                              > > strokes on a
                              > > consistent basis.
                              >
                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Gerald Lange
                              Scott Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress Sign in (you wll need a Yahoo ID), then click on Messages (side panel). This will bring up current
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
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                                Scott

                                Go to

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress

                                Sign in (you wll need a Yahoo ID), then click on Messages (side panel).
                                This will bring up current messages (as well as a search box). You can
                                click on a message and its complete thread will be indexed below it.

                                Gerald
                                PPL

                                Scott Golem wrote:
                                > Hi,
                                >
                                > I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am a little slow at text messaging, blogging etc.
                                >
                                > The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer to a question. How do you follow the trail backwards to get the whole story. Welcome to the 21 century.
                                >
                                > SCott
                                >
                                > Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@... slgolem1@... 972-617-3864
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Scott Golem
                                Gerald, Thanks for the info. I ll try it tomorrow. Scott Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@westwood.edu slgolem1@sbcglobal.net
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
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                                  Gerald,

                                  Thanks for the info. I'll try it tomorrow.

                                  Scott

                                  Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@... slgolem1@... 972-617-3864


                                  --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:

                                  > From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Wash out temp and brushes
                                  > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 11:23 AM
                                  > Scott
                                  >
                                  > Go to
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress
                                  >
                                  > Sign in (you wll need a Yahoo ID), then click on Messages
                                  > (side panel).
                                  > This will bring up current messages (as well as a search
                                  > box). You can
                                  > click on a message and its complete thread will be indexed
                                  > below it.
                                  >
                                  > Gerald
                                  > PPL
                                  >
                                  > Scott Golem wrote:
                                  > > Hi,
                                  > >
                                  > > I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing
                                  > list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen
                                  > art background. I am a little slow at text messaging,
                                  > blogging etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer
                                  > to a question. How do you follow the trail backwards to get
                                  > the whole story. Welcome to the 21 century.
                                  > >
                                  > > SCott
                                  > >
                                  > > Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator
                                  > www.sgolem@... slgolem1@...
                                  > 972-617-3864
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • Graham and Kathy
                                  ... Boy oh boy, don t you wish that was true! Graham Moss Incline Press 36 Bow Street Oldham OL1 1SJ England http://www.inclinepress.com
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 16, 2009
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                                    On 15/1/09 15:08, "Lamsland" <lamsland1@...> wrote:

                                    > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                    > Thomas Jefferson


                                    Boy oh boy, don't you wish that was true!


                                    Graham Moss

                                    Incline Press
                                    36 Bow Street
                                    Oldham OL1 1SJ England

                                    http://www.inclinepress.com
                                  • Lamsland
                                    instead of able to read maybe he should have said bothers to read ??? ;) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 16, 2009
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                                      instead of able to read maybe he should have said "bothers to
                                      read" ??? ;)


                                      On Jan 16, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Graham and Kathy wrote:

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On 15/1/09 15:08, "Lamsland" <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                      > > Thomas Jefferson
                                      >
                                      > Boy oh boy, don't you wish that was true!
                                      >
                                      > Graham Moss
                                      >
                                      > Incline Press
                                      > 36 Bow Street
                                      > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                                      >
                                      > http://www.inclinepress.com
                                      >
                                      >



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