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Wash out temp and brushes

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  • Lamsland
    I ve noticed in the specs for some material it list the wash out time at a specific temp, typically 95°. How critical is this to the wash out process,
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 9, 2009
      I've noticed in the specs for some material it list the wash out
      time at a specific temp, typically 95°. How critical is this to the
      wash out process, especially if doing so by hand?

      Also, looking at the few photos I can find of professional wash out
      machines, that the wash out is done with an oscillating circular
      motion against standing brushes. Is it possible to achieve effective
      wash out with spinning rotary brushes?

      Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
      Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

      Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
      Thomas Jefferson



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gerald Lange
      Matthew There is some latitude. 95˚ seems a bit high. I use Toyobo Printight plates and the manufacturer suggests 68˚–77˚ F. I run them at between 80˚
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 10, 2009
        Matthew

        There is some latitude. 95˚ seems a bit high. I use Toyobo Printight
        plates and the manufacturer suggests 68˚–77˚ F. I run them at between
        80˚ and 90˚ F. More important is the temperature of the plates
        pre-exposure, especially during this time of year. What temperature is
        your tap water?

        I have an A&V Orbiter and the brush action is circular one way, then
        it halts for a bit, then reverses the circular motion seemingly at
        another speed, and then it repeats the sequence. I've looked at the
        apparatus and the only thing a bit different about the electronics was
        a mercury switch, which I assume controlled the actions. I doubt it
        matters too much. Some machines used ultra sound, others used plush
        pads that had a sort of jellyfish pumping action. Many folks who wash
        out by hand seem to do alright. Main thing is the length of time the
        plate is in the washout process and if there are multiple plates being
        done in sequence, that the timing is quite exact.

        The advantage of the machine is basically that, everything can be
        timed in accordance within the spec variances of the plate. If you are
        running a variety of plates, doing plates for others, or just do an
        inordinate amount of precision plate work (say, as required for book
        printing-publishing), hands down the machine beats alternative
        processing. Otherwise, not so crucial, as long as you are on top of it.

        Gerald
        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com





        .--- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've noticed in the specs for some material it list the wash out
        > time at a specific temp, typically 95°. How critical is this to the
        > wash out process, especially if doing so by hand?
        >
        > Also, looking at the few photos I can find of professional wash out
        > machines, that the wash out is done with an oscillating circular
        > motion against standing brushes. Is it possible to achieve effective
        > wash out with spinning rotary brushes?
        >
        > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
        > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
        >
        > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
        > Thomas Jefferson
        >
        >
        >
      • parallel_imp
        ... It does vary with material and method. Manufacturer s spec for Miraclon is 95, and for Rigilon, 105, when using brush washout. (With spray washout, 80 and
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 10, 2009
          --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
          >
          > There is some latitude. 95 seems a bit high.

          It does vary with material and method. Manufacturer's spec for Miraclon is 95, and for
          Rigilon, 105, when using brush washout. (With spray washout, 80 and 84 respectively, at 55
          psi).
          When hand-processing, I will fill a bucket with 105 water, and replenish the water in the
          washout tray a couple times for each plate, because it does cool off quickly. So the
          temperature of the bath would vary from say 95 or 100 to 75 or 80 while washing a given
          plate. For me hand washout takes a minute longer than machine washout using Rigilon 145.
          The problem with cool water is that the unexposed photopolymer takes longer to wash off,
          and the longer in the bath, the exposed plate material can take on moisture as well, and fine
          elements like serifs or periods can get brushed off. If you are doing coarse work, big solids
          or reverses, there are no fine details to lose.
          --Eric Holub, SF
        • Gerald Lange
          Eric Are you using Rigilon for letterpress plates? Aren t these for moulding? And Miraclon, man, that is way back there. Probably one of the first
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 10, 2009
            Eric

            Are you using Rigilon for letterpress plates? Aren't these for
            moulding? And Miraclon, man, that is way back there. Probably one of
            the first water-washouts. An oldie but goodie I suppose.

            I'd never thought about the problem of heat loss during hand washout.
            I suppose that should be a significant consideration. I preheat my
            machine to near 90 degrees but when I run a preliminary washout to
            clean out the hot and cold spots it drops down to 80+ for the duration
            of the work day. I never considered that need for energy consistency,
            or guess I just assumed it.

            Gerald
            http://BielerPress.blogspot.com



            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "parallel_imp" <Megalonyx@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@> wrote:
            > >
            > > There is some latitude. 95 seems a bit high.
            >
            > It does vary with material and method. Manufacturer's spec for
            Miraclon is 95, and for
            > Rigilon, 105, when using brush washout. (With spray washout, 80 and
            84 respectively, at 55
            > psi).
            > When hand-processing, I will fill a bucket with 105 water, and
            replenish the water in the
            > washout tray a couple times for each plate, because it does cool off
            quickly. So the
            > temperature of the bath would vary from say 95 or 100 to 75 or 80
            while washing a given
            > plate. For me hand washout takes a minute longer than machine
            washout using Rigilon 145.
            > The problem with cool water is that the unexposed photopolymer
            takes longer to wash off,
            > and the longer in the bath, the exposed plate material can take on
            moisture as well, and fine
            > elements like serifs or periods can get brushed off. If you are
            doing coarse work, big solids
            > or reverses, there are no fine details to lose.
            > --Eric Holub, SF
            >
          • vanhorn_k
            We have an Interflex brand from a few years ago... We learned the hard way one day not to leave it on and walk away - it cooked off all the water proceeded to
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
              We have an Interflex brand from a few years ago...

              We learned the hard way one day not to leave it on and walk away - it cooked off all the
              water proceeded to try to set dried polymer on fire. From then on we just turned off the
              heater and do all our washouts in cold water... Cold cold. Probably 40-60 degrees,
              depending on the season.

              It takes longer, but I have never lost a 1/4 pt line, serif, or apostrophe... and we've burned
              down to 4pt. type before.

              On the other hand, perhaps some warmer water would speed up the washout... Most plates
              wash in the 7-9 min range, depending on what the students have done with the brush
              height.

              uɹoɥ uɐʌ əןλʞ
              http://www.kylevanhorn.com
            • parallel_imp
              ... Actually, my first Miraclon plates came from a rubber stamp supplier who sold THEM as molding plates. I stayed with Miraclon, from Becker, for years. While
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                >
                > Eric
                >
                > Are you using Rigilon for letterpress plates? Aren't these for
                > moulding? And Miraclon, man, that is way back there.

                Actually, my first Miraclon plates came from a rubber stamp supplier
                who sold THEM as molding plates. I stayed with Miraclon, from Becker,
                for years. While working at a place that used MLD plates, our supplier
                A-V started shipping Rigilon HX 145 instead of MLD. I switched to HX
                myself, and it happens that some well-known deep-impression job
                printers in the area were already using it. It has a matte surface for
                better drawdown without matte film, and it has a contrasting surface
                that is easy to read; flaws on the all-yellow Miraclon are tricky to
                detect.
                But I have started using Miraclon again, the DS 100, which thickness
                mounts nicely on blank Linotype slugs in a mixed form. It also holds
                detail well; I reproduced some old wood engravings in it, and a single
                exposure held shadow, mid, and highlight detail. In the past, with
                thicker plates, I have needed masking and multiple exposures for such
                images.
                --Eric Holub, SF
              • typetom@aol.com
                Hi Gerald, I have been using Miraclon from Gene Becker ever since (at least 7 or 8 years)... Works fine with my home exposure and hand-washout methods.
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
                  Hi Gerald,
                  I have been using Miraclon from Gene Becker ever since (at least 7 or 8
                  years)... Works fine with my home exposure and hand-washout methods. (Exposure
                  time, good plate contact with the negative, washout time, are all rather
                  critical but within reasonable limits. Water temperature and brushing motions, not
                  so critical).

                  Can you summarize the changes and/or supposed advantages of the more recent
                  plate materials?
                  Are the differences substantive or mainly proprietary-commercial?
                  Are they developments due to machine exposure/washout conditions?

                  Thanks, Tom



                  In a message dated 1/10/2009 11:42:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
                  Bieler@... writes:

                  And Miraclon, man, that is way back there. Probably one of
                  the first water-washouts. An oldie but goodie I suppose.

                  **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
                  steps!
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                  cemailfooterNO62)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • parallel_imp
                  ... Wow, that s pretty extreme. I ve only worked with BASF and Polimero machines, and neither had such a high temperature that you couldn t leave them on all
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "vanhorn_k" <kvh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > We have an Interflex brand from a few years ago...
                    >
                    > We learned the hard way one day not to leave it on and walk away - it cooked off all the
                    > water proceeded to try to set dried polymer on fire.

                    Wow, that's pretty extreme. I've only worked with BASF and Polimero machines, and neither
                    had such a high temperature that you couldn't leave them on all day with minimal
                    evaporation, at least with the lid closed. The Polimero machine has a safety that shuts off
                    power if bath reaches a certain heat, as when someone turns it on without any water present.
                    --Eric Holub, SF
                  • vanhorn_k
                    ... present. ... Yeah, I think our thermostat is broken. We got one of the first of these models available in the country... I ve dismantled it once or twice
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
                      > Wow, that's pretty extreme. I've only worked with BASF and Polimero machines, and neither
                      > had such a high temperature that you couldn't leave them on all day with minimal
                      > evaporation, at least with the lid closed. The Polimero machine has a safety that shuts off
                      > power if bath reaches a certain heat, as when someone turns it on without any water
                      present.
                      > --Eric Holub, SF
                      >

                      Yeah, I think our thermostat is broken. We got one of the first of these models available in
                      the country... I've dismantled it once or twice already. Clearly we've decided it's not a big
                      deal.
                    • Gerald Lange
                      Hi Tom Not sure I can answer that question. Except maybe with an example. When Toyobo changed its formulation a few years ago, the processing times for
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 11, 2009
                        Hi Tom

                        Not sure I can answer that question. Except maybe with an example.
                        When Toyobo changed its formulation a few years ago, the processing
                        times for exposure and washout were reduced. Which seems a good thing,
                        energy wise, etc.

                        Can't say I noticed an increase in quality but I certainly did notice
                        there was no decrease. I picked up some of their technical studies
                        that have a lot of comparison photos; I put a few of them up in the
                        photo section a while back.

                        The photos seem to reveal cleaner more refined structure. Less debris
                        in the relief, less corrosion to the relief slope and printing
                        surface. more defined relief slope and drainage, more accurately
                        depicted printing surfaces, etc. At the microphotographic level it all
                        looks like an inprovement. And, since that is where all the action
                        takes place, I assume it is.

                        Not sure why Toyobo felt compelled to reformulate an existing and
                        successful product line but it may have something to do with the
                        ongoing developments toward improving filmless direct-to-plate
                        technology. That would seem to be the larger (future) market.

                        Gerald
                        http://BielerPress.blogspot.com


                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, typetom@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Gerald,
                        > I have been using Miraclon from Gene Becker ever since (at least 7
                        or 8
                        > years)... Works fine with my home exposure and hand-washout methods.
                        (Exposure
                        > time, good plate contact with the negative, washout time, are all
                        rather
                        > critical but within reasonable limits. Water temperature and
                        brushing motions, not
                        > so critical).
                        >
                        > Can you summarize the changes and/or supposed advantages of the more
                        recent
                        > plate materials?
                        > Are the differences substantive or mainly proprietary-commercial?
                        > Are they developments due to machine exposure/washout conditions?
                        >
                        > Thanks, Tom
                        >
                        >
                      • Lamsland
                        great discussion guys. Thanks. My concern about the temp is I ll either have to get a mixing panel or just try and get it close with a thermometer and the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 12, 2009
                          great discussion guys. Thanks. My concern about the temp is I'll
                          either have to get a mixing panel or just try and get it close with a
                          thermometer and the spigots. I'm sure the hot water in the house is
                          hot enough (120 degrees) I was more curious how precise it needed to be.

                          As for brushes, I can get an old matchprint developer/laminator
                          machine. The small table top kind. O know it's not made for this use,
                          but I like to tinker with machines and though it would be interesting
                          to experiment with. Thus the question if rotary bushes would work.

                          Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                          Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                          Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                          Thomas Jefferson

                          On Jan 11, 2009, at 10:48 PM, vanhorn_k wrote:

                          >
                          > > Wow, that's pretty extreme. I've only worked with BASF and
                          > Polimero machines, and neither
                          > > had such a high temperature that you couldn't leave them on all
                          > day with minimal
                          > > evaporation, at least with the lid closed. The Polimero machine
                          > has a safety that shuts off
                          > > power if bath reaches a certain heat, as when someone turns it on
                          > without any water
                          > present.
                          > > --Eric Holub, SF
                          > >
                          >
                          > Yeah, I think our thermostat is broken. We got one of the first of
                          > these models available in
                          > the country... I've dismantled it once or twice already. Clearly
                          > we've decided it's not a big
                          > deal.
                          >
                          >
                          >







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John G. Henry
                          1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate development over the weekend at the College Book Arts Assoc. 1st Biennial Conference in Iowa City,
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 12, 2009
                            1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                            development over the weekend at the College Book Arts Assoc. 1st
                            Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he washed out
                            his plates by hand using a stainless photographic developing tray in a
                            sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp somewhat
                            consistent. (Same process used in photo print development by hand.)

                            As to the motion of the brushes, or plate above the brushes, I assume
                            the orbital motion eliminates the chance for individual brush tufts to
                            continually interact with the same plate areas, causing the potential
                            for brush action to be more aggressive in a circular pattern. When
                            washing by hand, you would be wise to imitate the action of the machine
                            and not use totally circular or horizontal & vertical strokes on a
                            consistent basis.
                          • Peter Fraterdeus
                            ... Hi, John Sorry I missed Dan s demo on Saturday. I wonder if he has any online material for reference? I was interested in his use of stochastic patterns in
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 12, 2009
                              On 12 Jan 2009, at 8:48 AM, John G. Henry wrote:

                              > 1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                              > development over the weekend at the College Book Arts Assoc. 1st
                              > Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he washed out
                              > his plates by hand using a stainless photographic developing tray in a
                              > sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp somewhat
                              > consistent. (Same process used in photo print development by hand.)

                              Hi, John

                              Sorry I missed Dan's demo on Saturday.
                              I wonder if he has any online material for reference?
                              I was interested in his use of stochastic patterns in Photoshop.

                              Cheers
                              PF


                              Peter Fraterdeus
                              Almost Free™ Business Cards from Exquisite Letterpress
                              http://slowprint.com/almostfreelp

                              New! SlowPrint Newsletter!
                              Signup: http://tinyurl.com/slowprint
                              Current: http://slowprint.com/slowprintnl
                            • Scott Golem
                              Hi, I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am a little slow at text
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
                                Hi,

                                I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am a little slow at text messaging, blogging etc.

                                The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer to a question. How do you follow the trail backwards to get the whole story. Welcome to the 21 century.

                                SCott

                                Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@... slgolem1@... 972-617-3864


                                --- On Mon, 1/12/09, John G. Henry <JohnH@...> wrote:

                                > From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
                                > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Wash out temp and brushes
                                > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 8:48 AM
                                > 1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                                >
                                > development over the weekend at the College Book Arts
                                > Assoc. 1st
                                > Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he
                                > washed out
                                > his plates by hand using a stainless photographic
                                > developing tray in a
                                > sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp
                                > somewhat
                                > consistent. (Same process used in photo print development
                                > by hand.)
                                >
                                > As to the motion of the brushes, or plate above the
                                > brushes, I assume
                                > the orbital motion eliminates the chance for individual
                                > brush tufts to
                                > continually interact with the same plate areas, causing the
                                > potential
                                > for brush action to be more aggressive in a circular
                                > pattern. When
                                > washing by hand, you would be wise to imitate the action of
                                > the machine
                                > and not use totally circular or horizontal & vertical
                                > strokes on a
                                > consistent basis.
                              • Lamsland
                                easiest way is to actually go to yahoo s site. Find the groups link, then find the only for PPLetterpress. All the messages are there and you can do a search.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
                                  easiest way is to actually go to yahoo's site. Find the groups link,
                                  then find the only for PPLetterpress. All the messages are there and
                                  you can do a search. .


                                  Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                                  Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                                  Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                  Thomas Jefferson

                                  On Jan 15, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Scott Golem wrote:

                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running
                                  > forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am
                                  > a little slow at text messaging, blogging etc.
                                  >
                                  > The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer to a question.
                                  > How do you follow the trail backwards to get the whole story.
                                  > Welcome to the 21 century.
                                  >
                                  > SCott
                                  >
                                  > Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator
                                  > www.sgolem@...1@... 972-617-3864
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 1/12/09, John G. Henry <JohnH@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > From: John G. Henry <JohnH@...>
                                  > > Subject: [PPLetterpress] Re: Wash out temp and brushes
                                  > > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 8:48 AM
                                  > > 1. Water Temp -- Dan Mayer demonstrated his methods of plate
                                  > >
                                  > > development over the weekend at the College Book Arts
                                  > > Assoc. 1st
                                  > > Biennial Conference in Iowa City, IA. He indicated that he
                                  > > washed out
                                  > > his plates by hand using a stainless photographic
                                  > > developing tray in a
                                  > > sink with warm water running, in order to keep the temp
                                  > > somewhat
                                  > > consistent. (Same process used in photo print development
                                  > > by hand.)
                                  > >
                                  > > As to the motion of the brushes, or plate above the
                                  > > brushes, I assume
                                  > > the orbital motion eliminates the chance for individual
                                  > > brush tufts to
                                  > > continually interact with the same plate areas, causing the
                                  > > potential
                                  > > for brush action to be more aggressive in a circular
                                  > > pattern. When
                                  > > washing by hand, you would be wise to imitate the action of
                                  > > the machine
                                  > > and not use totally circular or horizontal & vertical
                                  > > strokes on a
                                  > > consistent basis.
                                  >
                                  >





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Gerald Lange
                                  Scott Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress Sign in (you wll need a Yahoo ID), then click on Messages (side panel). This will bring up current
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
                                    Scott

                                    Go to

                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress

                                    Sign in (you wll need a Yahoo ID), then click on Messages (side panel).
                                    This will bring up current messages (as well as a search box). You can
                                    click on a message and its complete thread will be indexed below it.

                                    Gerald
                                    PPL

                                    Scott Golem wrote:
                                    > Hi,
                                    >
                                    > I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen art background. I am a little slow at text messaging, blogging etc.
                                    >
                                    > The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer to a question. How do you follow the trail backwards to get the whole story. Welcome to the 21 century.
                                    >
                                    > SCott
                                    >
                                    > Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@... slgolem1@... 972-617-3864
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Scott Golem
                                    Gerald, Thanks for the info. I ll try it tomorrow. Scott Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@westwood.edu slgolem1@sbcglobal.net
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 15, 2009
                                      Gerald,

                                      Thanks for the info. I'll try it tomorrow.

                                      Scott

                                      Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator www.sgolem@... slgolem1@... 972-617-3864


                                      --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Gerald Lange <Bieler@...> wrote:

                                      > From: Gerald Lange <Bieler@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: [PPLetterpress] Re: Wash out temp and brushes
                                      > To: PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 11:23 AM
                                      > Scott
                                      >
                                      > Go to
                                      >
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPLetterpress
                                      >
                                      > Sign in (you wll need a Yahoo ID), then click on Messages
                                      > (side panel).
                                      > This will bring up current messages (as well as a search
                                      > box). You can
                                      > click on a message and its complete thread will be indexed
                                      > below it.
                                      >
                                      > Gerald
                                      > PPL
                                      >
                                      > Scott Golem wrote:
                                      > > Hi,
                                      > >
                                      > > I just got involved with the PPLetterpress mailing
                                      > list/running forum. I come from an intaglio and silkscreen
                                      > art background. I am a little slow at text messaging,
                                      > blogging etc.
                                      > >
                                      > > The emails that I'm getting seem to be the answer
                                      > to a question. How do you follow the trail backwards to get
                                      > the whole story. Welcome to the 21 century.
                                      > >
                                      > > SCott
                                      > >
                                      > > Scott Golem, MFA Graphic Designer and Educator
                                      > www.sgolem@... slgolem1@...
                                      > 972-617-3864
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                    • Graham and Kathy
                                      ... Boy oh boy, don t you wish that was true! Graham Moss Incline Press 36 Bow Street Oldham OL1 1SJ England http://www.inclinepress.com
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jan 16, 2009
                                        On 15/1/09 15:08, "Lamsland" <lamsland1@...> wrote:

                                        > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                        > Thomas Jefferson


                                        Boy oh boy, don't you wish that was true!


                                        Graham Moss

                                        Incline Press
                                        36 Bow Street
                                        Oldham OL1 1SJ England

                                        http://www.inclinepress.com
                                      • Lamsland
                                        instead of able to read maybe he should have said bothers to read ??? ;) ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jan 16, 2009
                                          instead of able to read maybe he should have said "bothers to
                                          read" ??? ;)


                                          On Jan 16, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Graham and Kathy wrote:

                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On 15/1/09 15:08, "Lamsland" <lamsland1@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Where the press is free and every man able to read, all is safe.
                                          > > Thomas Jefferson
                                          >
                                          > Boy oh boy, don't you wish that was true!
                                          >
                                          > Graham Moss
                                          >
                                          > Incline Press
                                          > 36 Bow Street
                                          > Oldham OL1 1SJ England
                                          >
                                          > http://www.inclinepress.com
                                          >
                                          >



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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