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font problem update

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  • parallel_imp
    Thanks to all who responded. The customer dug deeper and found the missing fonts, AND the service bureau discovered they had the Mac version already (and
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 5, 2008
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      Thanks to all who responded. The customer dug deeper and found the
      missing fonts, AND the service bureau discovered they had the Mac
      version already (and thankfully, their Zip 250 drive was still
      functional). I suspect the dismembering of the font family may be from
      purchasing by download.
      As for pdfs, I think a customer who can't properly gather the
      necessary files for a job may also have problems generating a good
      pdf. That's been my experience anyway. But even on a PC laptop,
      without Acrobat, he is able to do book designs that Thompson-Shore (or
      whoever it is) accepts and prints.
      firmly on the trailing edge, I remain, faithfully yours,
      Eric Holub, SF
    • Gerald Lange
      Eric Well there was a time, in the late Pagemaker/PS1 years when you were LUCKY enough to be able to generate a PDF for Thompson-Shore, if you correctly
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 5, 2008
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        Eric

        Well there was a time, in the late Pagemaker/PS1 years when you were
        LUCKY enough to be able to generate a PDF for Thompson-Shore, if you
        correctly configured it based on their very difficult multi-step
        requirements. They frowned on accepting camera-ready quite some many
        years ago. On one job I had specked it would have cost something like
        $12,000 (maybe a lot more?) for the camera-ready output. A day later,
        PDF capability, $0.

        Today, with Acrobat 8 or 9, click "press quality." Done. Nothing else
        required. Nothing wrong with being firmly on the trialing edge. I'm
        not a big fan of jumping on the latest innovation or technological
        advance or fashion; I say use it up first. But, take it when you can.

        Gerald


        > As for pdfs, I think a customer who can't properly gather the
        > necessary files for a job may also have problems generating a good
        > pdf. That's been my experience anyway. But even on a PC laptop,
        > without Acrobat, he is able to do book designs that Thompson-Shore (or
        > whoever it is) accepts and prints.
        > firmly on the trailing edge, I remain, faithfully yours,
        > Eric Holub, SF
        >
      • Lamsland
        don t be to too hard on them, pagemaker is NOT the best app for collecting a file to send off to a service bureau. Personally I ve never had a ton of luck
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 6, 2008
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          don't be to too hard on them, pagemaker is NOT the best app for
          collecting a file to send off to a service bureau. Personally I've
          never had a ton of luck making a half way decent PDF out of it on a
          windoze machine either.


          Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
          Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

          On Sep 5, 2008, at 8:05 PM, parallel_imp wrote:

          > Thanks to all who responded. The customer dug deeper and found the
          > missing fonts, AND the service bureau discovered they had the Mac
          > version already (and thankfully, their Zip 250 drive was still
          > functional). I suspect the dismembering of the font family may be from
          > purchasing by download.
          > As for pdfs, I think a customer who can't properly gather the
          > necessary files for a job may also have problems generating a good
          > pdf. That's been my experience anyway. But even on a PC laptop,
          > without Acrobat, he is able to do book designs that Thompson-Shore (or
          > whoever it is) accepts and prints.
          > firmly on the trailing edge, I remain, faithfully yours,
          > Eric Holub, SF
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Aaron
          If you are making poor pdfs it not pagemaker that is the problem. If you do not set up your Adobe Distiller® correctly. You have to set it up for high res.
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 6, 2008
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            If you are making poor pdfs it not pagemaker that is the problem. If
            you do not set up your Adobe Distiller® correctly. You have to set it
            up for high res. you have to change the setting to 1200 and 1800 and
            a few other things. The Adobe Distiller® is set up for pdf for non-
            printer. Your service bureau should have someone that can tell your
            the correct settings. I know this is correct because for the pass 8
            years I have been the production manager of a weekly newspaper that
            makes pdfs to send to our printing plant 15 miles away.
            Aaqron Poscovsky
            --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, Lamsland <lamsland1@...> wrote:
            >
            > don't be to too hard on them, pagemaker is NOT the best app for
            > collecting a file to send off to a service bureau. Personally I've
            > never had a ton of luck making a half way decent PDF out of it on
            a
            > windoze machine either.
            >
            >
            > Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
            > Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae
            >
            > On Sep 5, 2008, at 8:05 PM, parallel_imp wrote:
            >
            > > Thanks to all who responded. The customer dug deeper and found the
            > > missing fonts, AND the service bureau discovered they had the Mac
            > > version already (and thankfully, their Zip 250 drive was still
            > > functional). I suspect the dismembering of the font family may be
            from
            > > purchasing by download.
            > > As for pdfs, I think a customer who can't properly gather the
            > > necessary files for a job may also have problems generating a good
            > > pdf. That's been my experience anyway. But even on a PC laptop,
            > > without Acrobat, he is able to do book designs that Thompson-
            Shore (or
            > > whoever it is) accepts and prints.
            > > firmly on the trailing edge, I remain, faithfully yours,
            > > Eric Holub, SF
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • George Chapman
            I use Pagemaker 7.0 and the built in pdf distiller seems to work fine when I forward files to outside printers. -- I don t send email, I just speak to people
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
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              I use Pagemaker 7.0 and the built in pdf distiller seems to work fine when I
              forward files to outside printers.

              --
              "I don't send email, I just speak to people . . . and it's amazing what you
              find out when you speak to a lot of people about . . . what's going on in
              anything you do."
              Sanford Weill
              Former chairman and CEO of Citigroup


              George Chapman
              In the heart of the beautiful San Juan Mountains of Colorado at 9,318 feet.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gerald Lange
              PMers I was always a big PageMaker loyalist (hated Quark, just not intuitive enough) but I must say get ye over to InDesign. At this point, the typographer s
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 7, 2008
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                PMers

                I was always a big PageMaker loyalist (hated Quark, just not intuitive
                enough) but I must say get ye over to InDesign. At this point, the
                typographer's dream program. Beginning with CS2, Indy could/can
                convert PM files with ease. Only thing lacking, and a good thing,
                was/is it strips out the kerning. I used to have to work my ass off in
                PageMaker to get the kerning anywhere near what I expected from my
                metal type years. Indy provides exceptional kerning based on the
                metrics of the font. Of course, only technically well thought out
                fonts respond better in this regard. On lesser engineered fonts, a bit
                of work is required. Plus, high-end PDF generation in any of the Adobe
                CS programs is automatic.

                Gerald
                http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "George Chapman" <gachap@...> wrote:
                >
                > I use Pagemaker 7.0 and the built in pdf distiller seems to work
                fine when I
                > forward files to outside printers.
                >
                > --
                > "I don't send email, I just speak to people . . . and it's amazing
                what you
                > find out when you speak to a lot of people about . . . what's going
                on in
                > anything you do."
                > Sanford Weill
                > Former chairman and CEO of Citigroup
                >
                >
                > George Chapman
                > In the heart of the beautiful San Juan Mountains of Colorado at
                9,318 feet.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • bryan@manifestopress.com
                Quark: Awesome for book layout, the industry standard for small and large-scale publishing, dynamic and loaded with functionality if you take the time to use
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
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                  Quark: Awesome for book layout, the industry standard for small and
                  large-scale publishing, dynamic and loaded with functionality if you
                  take the time to use it. I consulted and trained in pre-press and
                  desktop for most of the 90's. It does exactly what it's supposed to.
                  The only drawback to Quark is the very long delay that happened
                  between Version 5 and 6. for prepress, Quark's simple ability to set
                  traps was a reason enough to use it. Markzware wrote so many add-ons
                  for Quark it was almost impossible to be held back when using Quark.

                  Pagemaker: I used to call it Ragemaker. the app sucked. Slightly non-
                  intuitive but a good amount of people learned DTP using Ragemaker
                  simply because Quark was too expensive for most colleges to purchase.
                  Quark is light-years ahead of Ragemaker with respect to
                  functionality. The text box in Ragemaker is slightly better than
                  Microsoft Word, Text warp in Ragemaker was better than the early
                  versions of Quark, but once Quark hit version 5, that all changed.
                  There is a reason Ragemaker was shelved once Aldus was purchased by
                  Adobe. I find that most people who stuck with Ragemaker were doing it
                  for some kind of "I'm not selling out to Quark" stance. Basically
                  people used Ragemaker because it was cheap and easy to pirate.
                  Everyone had a pirated copy of Ragemaker.

                  Speaking as someone who worked in one of Boston's largest service
                  bureaus and trained DTP professionals for careers, Ragemaker sucks.
                  It was a dead-end application that followed a non-intuitive series of
                  blunders that ended it's development. Simply put, it was developed
                  when people were learning about DTP. Quark had a better approach and
                  it showed. To redevelop Ragemaker was too expensive and everyone
                  generally accepted that a redevelopment would make it too much like
                  Quark, which would bring many lawsuits from Quark. They loved to sue
                  anyone who infringed on their model. I worked in the magazine
                  publication industry for many years. The Ragemaker crap that used to
                  come through our door was a nightmare for production, filled with
                  holes that required so many workarounds it was ridiculous.

                  Indesign: Originally promoted as an upgrade to Ragemaker for
                  Ragemaker fans. It launched in the void between Quark 5 and 6. then
                  when Q6 came out with it's hefty price tage, the selling point for
                  "Indy" was that it was bundled in CS packages. By the time Q6
                  launched enough people had switched to "Indy" which ran on Apple OS
                  X. Quark 5 still ran on OS 9. When Q6 launched to run on OS X, they
                  had already lost enough of their market share to Adobe and "Indy". As
                  page layout goes, it's a very powerful tool, but still not as
                  intuitive as Quark 6, especially for the large-scale publishing
                  industry.

                  Illustrator: for single page layout and prepress, this is the
                  application I use exclusively. Powerful on so many levels it's
                  unbelievable. When they finally upgraded their trace functionality to
                  one-up Freehand, they set the bar so high no one will ever meet it.
                  If they could just come out with a stripped down version for print.

                  As a side note, I also did a lot of the beta testing on the first
                  releases of Aldus Trapwise and Presswise. Even Aldus acknowledged the
                  superiority of Quark. It was the preferred application when testing
                  Trap & Presswise.
                • Gerald Lange
                  When InDesign was first leaked it was known as K2 (meaning 2000): the Quark Killer. It did just that. Quark was intuitive?, you have got to be kidding. Worse
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 8, 2008
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                    When InDesign was first leaked it was known as K2 (meaning 2000): the
                    Quark Killer. It did just that. Quark was intuitive?, you have got to
                    be kidding. Worse thing about Quark, other than the fact that it was
                    extremely unstable, the company arrogantly treated its customers like
                    second-class citizens. How long did it take for Quark to recognize the
                    OpenType type format? I can't imagine how they have survived, or
                    should have.

                    Gerald

                    --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "bryan@..." <bryan@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Quark: Awesome for book layout, the industry standard for small and
                    > large-scale publishing, dynamic and loaded with functionality if you
                    > take the time to use it. I consulted and trained in pre-press and
                    > desktop for most of the 90's. It does exactly what it's supposed to.
                    > The only drawback to Quark is the very long delay that happened
                    > between Version 5 and 6. for prepress, Quark's simple ability to set
                    > traps was a reason enough to use it. Markzware wrote so many add-ons
                    > for Quark it was almost impossible to be held back when using Quark.
                    >
                    > Pagemaker: I used to call it Ragemaker. the app sucked. Slightly non-
                    > intuitive but a good amount of people learned DTP using Ragemaker
                    > simply because Quark was too expensive for most colleges to purchase.
                    > Quark is light-years ahead of Ragemaker with respect to
                    > functionality. The text box in Ragemaker is slightly better than
                    > Microsoft Word, Text warp in Ragemaker was better than the early
                    > versions of Quark, but once Quark hit version 5, that all changed.
                    > There is a reason Ragemaker was shelved once Aldus was purchased by
                    > Adobe. I find that most people who stuck with Ragemaker were doing it
                    > for some kind of "I'm not selling out to Quark" stance. Basically
                    > people used Ragemaker because it was cheap and easy to pirate.
                    > Everyone had a pirated copy of Ragemaker.
                    >
                    > Speaking as someone who worked in one of Boston's largest service
                    > bureaus and trained DTP professionals for careers, Ragemaker sucks.
                    > It was a dead-end application that followed a non-intuitive series of
                    > blunders that ended it's development. Simply put, it was developed
                    > when people were learning about DTP. Quark had a better approach and
                    > it showed. To redevelop Ragemaker was too expensive and everyone
                    > generally accepted that a redevelopment would make it too much like
                    > Quark, which would bring many lawsuits from Quark. They loved to sue
                    > anyone who infringed on their model. I worked in the magazine
                    > publication industry for many years. The Ragemaker crap that used to
                    > come through our door was a nightmare for production, filled with
                    > holes that required so many workarounds it was ridiculous.
                    >
                    > Indesign: Originally promoted as an upgrade to Ragemaker for
                    > Ragemaker fans. It launched in the void between Quark 5 and 6. then
                    > when Q6 came out with it's hefty price tage, the selling point for
                    > "Indy" was that it was bundled in CS packages. By the time Q6
                    > launched enough people had switched to "Indy" which ran on Apple OS
                    > X. Quark 5 still ran on OS 9. When Q6 launched to run on OS X, they
                    > had already lost enough of their market share to Adobe and "Indy". As
                    > page layout goes, it's a very powerful tool, but still not as
                    > intuitive as Quark 6, especially for the large-scale publishing
                    > industry.
                    >
                    > Illustrator: for single page layout and prepress, this is the
                    > application I use exclusively. Powerful on so many levels it's
                    > unbelievable. When they finally upgraded their trace functionality to
                    > one-up Freehand, they set the bar so high no one will ever meet it.
                    > If they could just come out with a stripped down version for print.
                    >
                    > As a side note, I also did a lot of the beta testing on the first
                    > releases of Aldus Trapwise and Presswise. Even Aldus acknowledged the
                    > superiority of Quark. It was the preferred application when testing
                    > Trap & Presswise.
                    >
                  • Gerald Lange
                    In defense of PM ... Hardly. Very few folks remember it was once owned by Altsys. Or that Fontographer was owned by Altyys as well. I find that most people who
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
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                      In defense of PM

                      > There is a reason Ragemaker was shelved once Aldus was purchased by
                      > Adobe.

                      Hardly. Very few folks remember it was once owned by Altsys. Or that
                      Fontographer was owned by Altyys as well.

                      I find that most people who stuck with Ragemaker were doing it
                      > for some kind of "I'm not selling out to Quark" stance. Basically
                      > people used Ragemaker because it was cheap and easy to pirate.
                      > Everyone had a pirated copy of Ragemaker.

                      I have never had a pirated copy of PageMaker or Quark.

                      >
                      To redevelop Ragemaker was too expensive and everyone
                      > generally accepted that a redevelopment would make it too much like
                      > Quark, which would bring many lawsuits from Quark. They loved to sue
                      > anyone who infringed on their model.

                      Apparently Adobe was able to work that out, Re: InDesign. Quark's
                      model was based on previous proprietary applications. They could sue
                      whoever they wanted. Big deal. Did they ever win? They should have
                      paid more attention to the product.

                      Gerald
                    • parallel_imp
                      ... Gerald, both sides of this argument seem pretty damn subjective. I went straight from metal type to XPress 3.2, no computing experience, hadn t even done
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
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                        --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Lange" <Bieler@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > When InDesign was first leaked it was known as K2 (meaning 2000):
                        > the Quark Killer. It did just that. Quark was intuitive?, you have
                        > got to be kidding.

                        Gerald, both sides of this argument seem pretty damn subjective. I
                        went straight from metal type to XPress 3.2, no computing experience,
                        hadn't even done phototype since school 20 years before. I found it
                        extremely easy to learn, everything I knew from assembling type into
                        lines and pages was there, so for me "intuitive" would be accurate.
                        All I need to do in digital typesetting, I can still do in v
                        4.1--but then I don't do catalogs. Never experienced any instability,
                        never had to deal with their hated customer service, nor did my
                        associates. I've used Adobe products too, but found the tools for
                        handling type completely obscure without using the manual and
                        therefore "non-intuitive". But I have said this before.
                        I haven't used InDesign yet, maybe I'll have a conversion
                        experience with it, but frankly I've come to hate learning new
                        software. My ageing brain can only process so much, and learning
                        linecasters--a finite realm--is infinitely more satisfying.
                        --Eric Holub, SF
                      • bryan@manifestopress.com
                        Quark still beats Indesign as a production tool. Indesign did not kill Quark Intuitive for sure! Indesign, like all Adobe programs, tries to do too much. I
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
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                          Quark still beats Indesign as a production tool. Indesign did not
                          "kill" Quark Intuitive for sure! Indesign, like all Adobe programs,
                          tries to do too much.

                          I wonder what would have happened if Quark bought Aldus. they would
                          have had a great suite to rework and bundle with Quark � Freehand,
                          Press/Trapwise. Adobe could have gone down the Web path with
                          Macromedia, and Quark could have gone down the print path with their
                          Print Suite.

                          Of all the students I trained as a consultant, I can only think of
                          one who insisted that Ragemaker was better than Quark. She ended up
                          being replaced mainly because of her crappy attitude about everything
                          but her Bible-beating Jesus rants. Training strippers, printers etc.,
                          in companies who were bringing their own pre-press in-house, was
                          challenging. I trained them to use Quark, simply because it is a very
                          powerful tool and very easy to use. People picked it up quickly and
                          it fit into existing workflows very easily. Everyone was psyched to
                          drop Ragemaker and switch to Quark. It most certainly wasn't
                          unstable. OS9 was unstable and quark relied heavily on apple's pre-
                          OS X backbone.

                          Quark was arrogant, much like Adobe is today. That arrogance was
                          mainly because their software was so powerful and light-years ahead
                          of anyone else trying to sell publishing or DTP software. That
                          arrogance was also reflected in their price tag for the package.

                          I worked at the Boston Phoenix from 91-93. I filled in as the
                          "paginator" every 6 weeks. Laying out a weekly paper on deadline. The
                          power of Quark was very evident. The "Library" pallet was something
                          that made my life so much easier. Every headline combination, columns
                          with preset faces and spacing, drop caps etc was right there at my
                          fingertips.

                          I found that most people who railed against Quark were generally just
                          more about trying to be "different" and "not sellout to Quark".
                          Honestly, anyone who continued to use Ragemaker had a hard time
                          selling themselves as serious designers or production people.

                          When I worked at Graphics Express in Boston, I was in the "Projects"
                          department. We ran catalogue, magazines and books to film. Usually 4-
                          color seps hundreds of pages. etc. . The only people submitting work
                          in Ragemaker were hacks. I could look at a piece of film and tell you
                          if it was from Ragemaker just by the crappy way Ragemaker handled
                          text. That windowshade text box was a joke....a step above people who
                          insisted on using Microsoft Publisher...LOL

                          Stable Postscript didn't seem to be in Ragemakers vocabulary. Run a
                          file to a laser printer and it wouldn't match what came out of the
                          laser printer.





                          bryan hutcheson
                          manifesto letterpress / industrie standard
                          116 pleasant street - 201/203
                          easthampton, ma 01027
                          p:877.529.0009
                          f:413.529.1177
                          www.manifestopress.com
                          _________________________________
                          full-service commercial letterpress
                          announcements
                          stationery
                          packaging
                          posters





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Scott Rubel
                          I did some beautiful books in Quark and was able to make it do what I wanted. I found it an improvement over Pagemaker in the early days, though I emphasize I
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
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                            I did some beautiful books in Quark and was able to make it do what I
                            wanted. I found it an improvement over Pagemaker in the early days,
                            though I emphasize I had to MAKE it do what I wanted at times. It is
                            true that, especially in the past six years or so, they have had
                            outrageously hostile upgrade and support policies. InDesign is the only
                            thing in town for me now, and I every time I've opened an old Quark file
                            in it, the translation has been flawless with few exceptions.

                            --Scott

                            Gerald Lange wrote:
                            > When InDesign was first leaked it was known as K2 (meaning 2000): the
                            > Quark Killer. It did just that. Quark was intuitive?, you have got to
                            > be kidding. Worse thing about Quark, other than the fact that it was
                            > extremely unstable, the company arrogantly treated its customers like
                            > second-class citizens. How long did it take for Quark to recognize the
                            > OpenType type format? I can't imagine how they have survived, or
                            > should have.
                            >
                            > Gerald
                            >
                            > --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "bryan@..." <bryan@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> Quark: Awesome for book layout, the industry standard for small and
                            >> large-scale publishing, dynamic and loaded with functionality if you
                            >> take the time to use it. I consulted and trained in pre-press and
                            >> desktop for most of the 90's. It does exactly what it's supposed to.
                            >> The only drawback to Quark is the very long delay that happened
                            >> between Version 5 and 6. for prepress, Quark's simple ability to set
                            >> traps was a reason enough to use it. Markzware wrote so many add-ons
                            >> for Quark it was almost impossible to be held back when using Quark.
                            >>
                            >> Pagemaker: I used to call it Ragemaker. the app sucked. Slightly non-
                            >> intuitive but a good amount of people learned DTP using Ragemaker
                            >> simply because Quark was too expensive for most colleges to purchase.
                            >> Quark is light-years ahead of Ragemaker with respect to
                            >> functionality. The text box in Ragemaker is slightly better than
                            >> Microsoft Word, Text warp in Ragemaker was better than the early
                            >> versions of Quark, but once Quark hit version 5, that all changed.
                            >> There is a reason Ragemaker was shelved once Aldus was purchased by
                            >> Adobe. I find that most people who stuck with Ragemaker were doing it
                            >> for some kind of "I'm not selling out to Quark" stance. Basically
                            >> people used Ragemaker because it was cheap and easy to pirate.
                            >> Everyone had a pirated copy of Ragemaker.
                            >>
                            >> Speaking as someone who worked in one of Boston's largest service
                            >> bureaus and trained DTP professionals for careers, Ragemaker sucks.
                            >> It was a dead-end application that followed a non-intuitive series of
                            >> blunders that ended it's development. Simply put, it was developed
                            >> when people were learning about DTP. Quark had a better approach and
                            >> it showed. To redevelop Ragemaker was too expensive and everyone
                            >> generally accepted that a redevelopment would make it too much like
                            >> Quark, which would bring many lawsuits from Quark. They loved to sue
                            >> anyone who infringed on their model. I worked in the magazine
                            >> publication industry for many years. The Ragemaker crap that used to
                            >> come through our door was a nightmare for production, filled with
                            >> holes that required so many workarounds it was ridiculous.
                            >>
                            >> Indesign: Originally promoted as an upgrade to Ragemaker for
                            >> Ragemaker fans. It launched in the void between Quark 5 and 6. then
                            >> when Q6 came out with it's hefty price tage, the selling point for
                            >> "Indy" was that it was bundled in CS packages. By the time Q6
                            >> launched enough people had switched to "Indy" which ran on Apple OS
                            >> X. Quark 5 still ran on OS 9. When Q6 launched to run on OS X, they
                            >> had already lost enough of their market share to Adobe and "Indy". As
                            >> page layout goes, it's a very powerful tool, but still not as
                            >> intuitive as Quark 6, especially for the large-scale publishing
                            >> industry.
                            >>
                            >> Illustrator: for single page layout and prepress, this is the
                            >> application I use exclusively. Powerful on so many levels it's
                            >> unbelievable. When they finally upgraded their trace functionality to
                            >> one-up Freehand, they set the bar so high no one will ever meet it.
                            >> If they could just come out with a stripped down version for print.
                            >>
                            >> As a side note, I also did a lot of the beta testing on the first
                            >> releases of Aldus Trapwise and Presswise. Even Aldus acknowledged the
                            >> superiority of Quark. It was the preferred application when testing
                            >> Trap & Presswise.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Scott Rubel
                            The comment about pirating brought back a memory. Pirating is, of course, stealing, but I realize that I could transfer my typesetting skills from handset to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
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                              The comment about pirating brought back a memory. Pirating is, of
                              course, stealing, but I realize that I could transfer my typesetting
                              skills from handset to digital because someone "put" Pagemaker on my
                              first Mac in the early 80s. I barely knew where software came from back
                              then and had little clue that I was doing anything worse than taking a
                              cassette made from a friend's LP.

                              I guess I used a pirated version for a couple of years, but that's what
                              got me into it and purchasing legal versions ever since then,
                              subsequently to Quark, and then to InDesign, Photoshop, Freehand,
                              Illustrator, &c. Who knows what would have become of me (and how many
                              thousands Adobe and others would have missed out on) had it not been for
                              my "free sample?"

                              --Scott

                              Gerald Lange wrote:
                              > In defense of PM
                              >
                              >
                              >> There is a reason Ragemaker was shelved once Aldus was purchased by
                              >> Adobe.
                              >>
                              >
                              > Hardly. Very few folks remember it was once owned by Altsys. Or that
                              > Fontographer was owned by Altyys as well.
                              >
                              > I find that most people who stuck with Ragemaker were doing it
                              >
                              >> for some kind of "I'm not selling out to Quark" stance. Basically
                              >> people used Ragemaker because it was cheap and easy to pirate.
                              >> Everyone had a pirated copy of Ragemaker.
                              >>
                              >
                              > I have never had a pirated copy of PageMaker or Quark.
                              >
                              >
                              > To redevelop Ragemaker was too expensive and everyone
                              >
                              >> generally accepted that a redevelopment would make it too much like
                              >> Quark, which would bring many lawsuits from Quark. They loved to sue
                              >> anyone who infringed on their model.
                              >>
                              >
                              > Apparently Adobe was able to work that out, Re: InDesign. Quark's
                              > model was based on previous proprietary applications. They could sue
                              > whoever they wanted. Big deal. Did they ever win? They should have
                              > paid more attention to the product.
                              >
                              > Gerald
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lamsland
                              The old rumor was that s why Microsoft never came down on anyone for pirating windows. Gates figured if they used it and liked it eventually they d buy it.
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 9, 2008
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                                The old rumor was that's why Microsoft never came down on anyone for
                                pirating windows. Gates figured if they used it and liked it
                                eventually they'd buy it.


                                Matthew "LAMMY" Lamoureux
                                Full Metal Press - Operis servo a specialis nundinae

                                On Sep 9, 2008, at 11:21 AM, Scott Rubel wrote:

                                > The comment about pirating brought back a memory. Pirating is, of
                                > course, stealing, but I realize that I could transfer my typesetting
                                > skills from handset to digital because someone "put" Pagemaker on my
                                > first Mac in the early 80s. I barely knew where software came from
                                > back
                                > then and had little clue that I was doing anything worse than taking a
                                > cassette made from a friend's LP.
                                >
                                > I guess I used a pirated version for a couple of years, but that's
                                > what
                                > got me into it and purchasing legal versions ever since then,
                                > subsequently to Quark, and then to InDesign, Photoshop, Freehand,
                                > Illustrator, &c. Who knows what would have become of me (and how many
                                > thousands Adobe and others would have missed out on) had it not
                                > been for
                                > my "free sample?"
                                >
                                > --Scott
                                >
                                > Gerald Lange wrote:
                                > > In defense of PM
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >> There is a reason Ragemaker was shelved once Aldus was purchased by
                                > >> Adobe.
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > > Hardly. Very few folks remember it was once owned by Altsys. Or that
                                > > Fontographer was owned by Altyys as well.
                                > >
                                > > I find that most people who stuck with Ragemaker were doing it
                                > >
                                > >> for some kind of "I'm not selling out to Quark" stance. Basically
                                > >> people used Ragemaker because it was cheap and easy to pirate.
                                > >> Everyone had a pirated copy of Ragemaker.
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > > I have never had a pirated copy of PageMaker or Quark.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > To redevelop Ragemaker was too expensive and everyone
                                > >
                                > >> generally accepted that a redevelopment would make it too much like
                                > >> Quark, which would bring many lawsuits from Quark. They loved to
                                > sue
                                > >> anyone who infringed on their model.
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > > Apparently Adobe was able to work that out, Re: InDesign. Quark's
                                > > model was based on previous proprietary applications. They could sue
                                > > whoever they wanted. Big deal. Did they ever win? They should have
                                > > paid more attention to the product.
                                > >
                                > > Gerald
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ------------------------------------
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Gerald Lange
                                Eric Well, yes, they always are very subjective. Bryan s, yours, and mine are likely completely different experiences. I never got involved with graphic design
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                  Eric

                                  Well, yes, they always are very subjective. Bryan's, yours, and mine
                                  are likely completely different experiences. I never got involved with
                                  graphic design firms, my clients are always either educationally based
                                  or of special interest. Mainly typographical rather than graphic
                                  design oriented. I had worked with proprietary systems before getting
                                  involved with digital. I have been working with computers since 1970,
                                  online since 1976 (yes, it actually goes back that far, so does
                                  email). When I discovered the Mac and PM, and Adobe Originals type, it
                                  seemed the perfect replication for metal type. I didn't care what you
                                  could do with the computer in terms of speed or distortion of type or
                                  imaging or whatever. My only concern was is this as good as or better
                                  than what I can do with metal? Within my parameters, I found that it was.

                                  Gerald


                                  >
                                  > Gerald, both sides of this argument seem pretty damn subjective. I
                                  > went straight from metal type to XPress 3.2, no computing experience,
                                  > hadn't even done phototype since school 20 years before. I found it
                                  > extremely easy to learn, everything I knew from assembling type into
                                  > lines and pages was there, so for me "intuitive" would be accurate.
                                  > All I need to do in digital typesetting, I can still do in v
                                  > 4.1--but then I don't do catalogs. Never experienced any instability,
                                  > never had to deal with their hated customer service, nor did my
                                  > associates. I've used Adobe products too, but found the tools for
                                  > handling type completely obscure without using the manual and
                                  > therefore "non-intuitive". But I have said this before.
                                  > I haven't used InDesign yet, maybe I'll have a conversion
                                  > experience with it, but frankly I've come to hate learning new
                                  > software. My ageing brain can only process so much, and learning
                                  > linecasters--a finite realm--is infinitely more satisfying.
                                  > --Eric Holub, SF
                                  >
                                • bryan@manifestopress.com
                                  Gerald One of the great things about these lists is finding the history of everyone involved. We all took somewhat differing paths to arrive, two feet planted,
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                    Gerald

                                    One of the great things about these lists is finding the history of
                                    everyone involved. We all took somewhat differing paths to arrive,
                                    two feet planted, in front of our presses. Some of us were moving
                                    from a steadfast metal world to the digital.Other were born digital.
                                    I got my start on an old type imaging system in our vocational school
                                    back in Kansas City. Computers hit the street my senior year of High
                                    School. If I knew then what I know now...oh yeah, forget I said that...

                                    My respect that you actually made it with Ragemaker and didn't end up
                                    in the nut house...LOL... Having rescued many a DTP professional as
                                    they were just about to be sent away in Ragemaker straightjackets....
                                    that says a lot about your mind over matter...


                                    Cheers,

                                    bryan hutcheson
                                    manifesto letterpress / industrie standard
                                    116 pleasant street - 201/203
                                    easthampton, ma 01027
                                    p:877.529.0009
                                    f:413.529.1177
                                    www.manifestopress.com
                                    _________________________________
                                    full-service commercial letterpress
                                    announcements
                                    stationery
                                    packaging
                                    posters





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Gerald Lange
                                    Bryan I guess my needs were never high enough to tax the program, so I never really experienced any problems, even through well over a decade of use.
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 10, 2008
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                                      Bryan

                                      I guess my needs were never high enough to tax the program, so I never
                                      really experienced any problems, even through well over a decade of
                                      use. Typography, book design, nothing elaborate. At any rate, it
                                      certainly paid for itself.

                                      I don't use it anymore except for occasional testing of font metrics;
                                      it's a simple program that functions well at a simple level. And can
                                      be trusted in this regard. I assume you are correct though, that if
                                      expectations are too high, it might present problems.

                                      I use InDesign now for most such similar work, and my expectations
                                      aren't very elaborate in that regard either. Being a typographer is a
                                      simple life. I guess that is why I like it.

                                      Gerald
                                      http://BielerPress.blogspot.com

                                      --- In PPLetterpress@yahoogroups.com, "bryan@..." <bryan@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Gerald
                                      >
                                      > One of the great things about these lists is finding the history of
                                      > everyone involved. We all took somewhat differing paths to arrive,
                                      > two feet planted, in front of our presses. Some of us were moving
                                      > from a steadfast metal world to the digital.Other were born digital.
                                      > I got my start on an old type imaging system in our vocational school
                                      > back in Kansas City. Computers hit the street my senior year of High
                                      > School. If I knew then what I know now...oh yeah, forget I said that...
                                      >
                                      > My respect that you actually made it with Ragemaker and didn't end up
                                      > in the nut house...LOL... Having rescued many a DTP professional as
                                      > they were just about to be sent away in Ragemaker straightjackets....
                                      > that says a lot about your mind over matter...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      >
                                      > bryan hutcheson
                                      > manifesto letterpress / industrie standard
                                      > 116 pleasant street - 201/203
                                      > easthampton, ma 01027
                                      > p:877.529.0009
                                      > f:413.529.1177
                                      > www.manifestopress.com
                                      > _________________________________
                                      > full-service commercial letterpress
                                      > announcements
                                      > stationery
                                      > packaging
                                      > posters
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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