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Re: PIE Calendar , part 2

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  • Brian K Walsh
    Hi A / xthanex, That s a great compilation of the holidays! RE: AUGUST 1, (sometimes running from July 15th to August 15th) Lughnasa / Lammas CELTIC: Harvest
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 9, 2006
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      Hi A / xthanex,

      That's a great compilation of the holidays!

      RE:
      "AUGUST 1, (sometimes running from July 15th to August 15th)
      Lughnasa / Lammas
      CELTIC: Harvest festival. Assoc with horse racing. Also weaning of
      calves and lambs. Lugh established the festival in honor of his
      foster mother Tailtiu."

      Lughnasa is Celtic (specifically Gaelic), but I'm under the
      impression that Lammas is an Anglo-Saxon holiday with separate
      derivation.

      Also I think folks (many scholars included) have over generalized the
      data about Tailtiu, and ignored similar reports about other figures.

      Despite the popular view, I do not think Lugh established Lughnasa,
      as a holiday in general, in honor of his foster mother Tailtiu. He
      established the particular festival/fair found at Teltown in her
      honour. In other places, other Lughnasa festival/fairs honoured
      Carmun, one of Lugh's adversaries, or Nass, one of Lugh's wives, or
      other associated figures. We can't say the whole holiday is in honour
      of Tailtiu, without exaggerating the importance of her local fair and
      ignoring other similar local fairs.

      All the best,
      Brian
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cro_Loga/
    • A.
      ... the data about Tailtiu, and ignored similar reports about other figures. ... honour of Tailtiu, without exaggerating the importance of her local fair and
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 11, 2006
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        --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Brian K Walsh" <brianwalsh@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Lughnasa is Celtic (specifically Gaelic), but I'm under the
        > impression that Lammas is an Anglo-Saxon holiday with separate
        > derivation.
        >
        > Also I think folks (many scholars included) have over generalized
        the data about Tailtiu, and ignored similar reports about other
        figures.
        >
        > Despite the popular view, I do not think Lugh established Lughnasa,
        > as a holiday in general, in honor of his foster mother Tailtiu. He
        > established the particular festival/fair found at Teltown in her
        > honour. In other places, other Lughnasa festival/fairs honoured
        > Carmun, one of Lugh's adversaries, or Nass, one of Lugh's wives, or
        > other associated figures. We can't say the whole holiday is in
        honour of Tailtiu, without exaggerating the importance of her local
        fair and ignoring other similar local fairs.
        >
        > All the best,
        > Brian
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cro_Loga/
        >

        Brian,

        Thank you for the input and kind words. I had not come across the
        info you added (my understanding of Celtic myth is limited) I'd love
        to get more info on this, can you think of any citations or quotes
        regarding these other festivals?

        Additionally, on Lammas - I'll admit I'm quite confused about it.
        Asatruar and Theodish folk have varying views from what I can tell. I
        have posted the following to a rather bright group on an Asatru board
        in hopes of getting some clarification:

        "Just trying to clear up one (hopefully just one) last issue; that of
        Lammas. Here's what I have gathered:

        The traditional heathen name of any such feast is unknown. Lammas is a
        Christian church holiday. The name "Loaf-mass" is supposedly an
        allusion to the practice that worshippers would present a loaf made of
        the new wheat to the church as an offering of the first-fruits.
        Hlafmaest is an Anglo-Saxon reconstruction by Garman Cyning of
        Theodism meaning "loaf feast"

        Lammas is referred to in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle - the first mention
        occurs at 913 AD.

        Anyway, I would love to gather any further info on this holy-day and
        determine whether it actually was Anglo-Saxon in origin... or whether
        it was simply an AS adoption of a festival sacred to the British Celts
        (the Saxon version of Lughnasa)."

        Anyway, with any luck they'll be able to clear things up.

        Sincerely,
        Aydan
      • CeiSerith@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/11/2006 10:22:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, xthanex@yahoo.com writes: Anyway, I would love to gather any further info on this holy-day
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 11, 2006
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          In a message dated 2/11/2006 10:22:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          xthanex@... writes:

          Anyway, I would love to gather any further info on this holy-day and
          determine whether it actually was Anglo-Saxon in origin... or whether
          it was simply an AS adoption of a festival sacred to the British Celts
          (the Saxon version of Lughnasa)."



          Or an Anglo-Saxon version of a Christian holy day.

          Ceisiwr Serith


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brian K Walsh
          Hi Aydan, RE: Thank you for the input and kind words. I had not come across the info you added (my understanding of Celtic myth is limited) I d love to get
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 13, 2006
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            Hi Aydan,

            RE:
            "Thank you for the input and kind words. I had not come across the
            info you added (my understanding of Celtic myth is limited) I'd love
            to get more info on this, can you think of any citations or quotes
            regarding these other festivals?"

            You're welcome.
            Like the information on Tailtiu's fair, the information on the fair
            of Carman and the fair of Nass can be found in the Metrical
            Dindshenechas and all three are mentioned in Mac Neill's "The
            Festival of Lughnasa".
            The reason why Tailtiu got more press in the medieval period is
            because, unlike the other two, it was also an assembly spot for the
            Uí Néill; as they rose in power so did the site's renown until the
            assembly was later presided over by the King of Tara himself. Scholar
            have given it more attention than the others because medieval writers
            gave it more attention, but before the rise of the Uí Néill it was
            not nearly as important... though its proximity to Tara would still
            have given it a popularity boost.

            In addition to these great fairs, Lugnasa celebrations took place
            elsewhere with special reference to Donn or Crom.

            Regardless of these local variations, the main focus of the *time* of
            Lughnasa is Lug and his actions, in contrast to particular *spaces*
            of Lughnasa which are associated with related beings.

            All the best,
            Brian
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cro_Loga/
          • marijakuncaitis
            I m actually doing a presentation on the Folkloric Calendar of the Balts at an upcoming Pagan Conference here in Toronto. My notes should be ready by the
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 15, 2006
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              I'm actually doing a presentation on the "Folkloric Calendar" of the
              Balts at an upcoming Pagan Conference here in Toronto. My notes
              should be ready by the weekend of March 4th. Brian Walsh is one of my
              fellow compatriots at the conference.

              Should be interesting. I will be using "Liaudes Kalendorius" by
              Gostautas and several other ethnographic studies.

              I have a lovely dvd on this as well - but it only looks at the major
              holidays, not the lesser known ones. I can say this though, there are
              considerably more Baltic holidays/festivals than the standard neo-
              pagan 8 <impish grin>.

              Marija

              --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, Ken Pfrenger <kenpfrenger@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > On 1/8/06, Endymion <pmmcof@...> wrote:
              > > > From: "A." <xthanex@...>
              > >
              > > > Here's something I've been toying with for the past week. I am
              > > > delving back into my Astaru roots thus I decided to review the
              modern
              > > > Asatru calendar and see how much was truly traditional and how
              much
              > > > is modern... then to see how it correlates to Celtic and Baltic
              > > > calendars.
              > > >
              > > > This is a VERY sloppy first draft in which I tried to clarify
              which
              > > > holidays were celebrated by at least 2 of the 3 faiths.
              > >
              > > I'll be comparing them to the Slavic folk calendar to see what is
              related
              > > and what not. It may produce some interesting conclusions in any
              way. But do
              > > not hold your breath though, I'm already busy over the top of my
              head with
              > > the Uni-related work.
              >
              > This is a good idea Aydan....I look forward to seeing what 'e' comes
              > up with as far as the Slavic holidays as well. I know there is a
              > fairly large crossover betweent he Baltic holidays and the Slavic so
              > there should be quite a few that seem to be pan-IE if not PIE.
              >
              > Our good fellow listmember Mr Serith posted a nice long post
              > concerning PIE holidays or callender near the start of this list. it
              > might be a good idea to head into the archives and do a search for
              > that post. I had it saved but lost it.
              >
              > Ken
              >
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