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Re: Yarilo & Apollo

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  • andelkod
    Sarah, The common origin of all IE cultures means to me that all IE groups share common features because they are steaming from Proto IE culture. Proto IE
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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      Sarah,
      'The common origin of all IE cultures' means to me that all IE groups
      share common features because they are steaming from Proto IE culture.
      Proto IE group of people lived in a transition period from neolithic
      to metal era, and is normally to expect that PIE religion had some
      neolithic features.
      I think too that Yarilo has IE Divine Twin components and that Apollo
      have a number of similar features, but contrary to you, I don't think
      that Yarillo is indroduced to Slavs by Greeks, but rather, he is god
      who existed already in PIE religion. Greeks developed that god in a
      different way then Slavs, but not so different that we can't see the
      same origin of Apollo and Yarillo.

      Andelko


      --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "bhmsympatico" <bhm@s...> wrote:
      >
      > Andelkod,
      > When you say, "The common origin of all IE culture", do you mean
      that
      > the pre-IE group shared mythological features with the IE groups?
      Or
      > the spread of IE means that groups share common features?
      >
      > The Perun and Veles conflict has always been attributed to IE
      culture
      > rather than pre-IE. Of course, there's Gimbutas who says that
      > everything Baltic and Slavic is "Old European" and pure. I'm not a
      > fan of Gimbutas'interpretations when it comes to her cultural
      > extrapolations. Do you have other sources that suggest an neolithic
      > origin? Thunderbolts and stones are classic IE features do you have
      > more evidence?
      >
      > I'm not sure if you are suggesting the Laurasian theory. My
      personal
      > leanings are more towards Witzel although I do acknowledge that the
      > research is still needs more work. Personally, I've found similar
      > cognates along theses lines for twenty years and would like to see
      > more on this topic.
      >
      > I still think that Yarilo has IE Divine Twin components. I would
      look
      > for other IE cognates. I don't see a reason to exclude Apollo if
      they
      > have a number of similar features.
      >
      > Greek import can mean anything such a picking up a few mythic
      features
      > or a story. It doesn't mean that the Greeks elimated Slavic
      culture.
      > But rather, they could have shared stories.
      >
      > The whole Thracian religion isn't borrowed from the Greeks but they
      do
      > have Greek influence and some Greek gods.
      >
      > -Sarah
    • bhmsympatico
      Andelkod, I don t think that Yarilo was introduced by the Greeks. He has distinct characteristics that make him, in most ways, a very different god. Yarilo is
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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        Andelkod,
        I don't think that Yarilo was introduced by the Greeks. He has
        distinct characteristics that make him, in most ways, a very different
        god. Yarilo is definately IE and Slavic.

        What I'm saying is if there are SOME Apollo features then Greek
        influence is a possibility and should be looked at. But, if you are
        going to identify an IE deity type with ALL Apollo's characteristics
        then you will have to look to Greece as the origin for that deity
        type. The reason for this that Apollo is very unique in the IE world
        and was definately created in Greece. He's a composite of different
        Dorian, Minoan, and Syro-Hittite elements and deities under one god.
        This makes Apollo hard to classify using the IE deity types as he
        doesn't truely fit into one exclusive type.

        It would be interesting to hear more on what you have found on the
        transitional period to support European neolithic elements in IE
        mythology. In many cases in Europe, such as the transition from
        Neolithic culture to Celtic culture in Britian, the transition was
        gradual and integrated. The early physical evidence from Celtic
        Britain shows the continuation of Neolithic culture. Now how to go
        from physical evidence to mythological evidence?

        My personal feelings (I don't have an arguement worked out) is that
        the pre-IE deities had much in common with the IE deities. I think
        they had a Sky Father, Sky goddess, Earth Mother, Hearth deity, Sun
        deity, Moon deity, Sea/water deity, a Hag-witch figure, a world
        tree,and world divied into three realms. These are only a few
        examples. So to transition to an IE system or add IE features was not
        that difficult nor did it create a culture split from it's original roots.

        By the way, I'm not arguing that Neolithic Europe had a Great Goddess
        or was a Matriarchy. There are so many commanalities with deities and
        mythologies covering areas larger than the IE territories that I think
        mythically the IEs are a subgroup of a larger complex.

        Sarah


        --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "andelkod" <andelkod@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Sarah,
        > 'The common origin of all IE cultures' means to me that all IE groups
        > share common features because they are steaming from Proto IE culture.
        > Proto IE group of people lived in a transition period from neolithic
        > to metal era, and is normally to expect that PIE religion had some
        > neolithic features.
        > I think too that Yarilo has IE Divine Twin components and that Apollo
        > have a number of similar features, but contrary to you, I don't think
        > that Yarillo is indroduced to Slavs by Greeks, but rather, he is god
        > who existed already in PIE religion. Greeks developed that god in a
        > different way then Slavs, but not so different that we can't see the
        > same origin of Apollo and Yarillo.
        >
        > Andelko
        >
        >
        > --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "bhmsympatico" <bhm@s...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Andelkod,
        > > When you say, "The common origin of all IE culture", do you mean
        > that
        > > the pre-IE group shared mythological features with the IE groups?
        > Or
        > > the spread of IE means that groups share common features?
        > >
        > > The Perun and Veles conflict has always been attributed to IE
        > culture
        > > rather than pre-IE. Of course, there's Gimbutas who says that
        > > everything Baltic and Slavic is "Old European" and pure. I'm not a
        > > fan of Gimbutas'interpretations when it comes to her cultural
        > > extrapolations. Do you have other sources that suggest an neolithic
        > > origin? Thunderbolts and stones are classic IE features do you have
        > > more evidence?
        > >
        > > I'm not sure if you are suggesting the Laurasian theory. My
        > personal
        > > leanings are more towards Witzel although I do acknowledge that the
        > > research is still needs more work. Personally, I've found similar
        > > cognates along theses lines for twenty years and would like to see
        > > more on this topic.
        > >
        > > I still think that Yarilo has IE Divine Twin components. I would
        > look
        > > for other IE cognates. I don't see a reason to exclude Apollo if
        > they
        > > have a number of similar features.
        > >
        > > Greek import can mean anything such a picking up a few mythic
        > features
        > > or a story. It doesn't mean that the Greeks elimated Slavic
        > culture.
        > > But rather, they could have shared stories.
        > >
        > > The whole Thracian religion isn't borrowed from the Greeks but they
        > do
        > > have Greek influence and some Greek gods.
        > >
        > > -Sarah
        >
      • andelkod
        Sarah, I think that Apollo s origin is IE deity, but also that Greeks incorporated in him some features of other non IE deities of preIE Greece and
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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          Sarah,
          I think that Apollo's origin is IE deity, but also that Greeks
          incorporated in him some features of other non IE deities of preIE
          Greece and surroundings. Characteristics which are common to Yarilo
          and Apollo, in my view, are characteristics of original IE deity, that
          is, twin born son of supreme (thunder) god (Zeus or Perun), growing at
          winter in some distant land beyond ocean (actually in the underworld),
          slaying the serpent underworld god (Python or Veles), returning in the
          spring when nature becomes reanimated and some others. He is actually
          a mythical hero god.
          I share with you understanding that IE religion system was naturally
          and gradually developed from neolithic system, so I don't understand
          why you can't accept that some IE gods have neolithic origin.

          Andelko


          --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "bhmsympatico" <bhm@s...> wrote:
          >
          > Andelkod,
          > I don't think that Yarilo was introduced by the Greeks. He has
          > distinct characteristics that make him, in most ways, a very
          different
          > god. Yarilo is definately IE and Slavic.
          >
          > What I'm saying is if there are SOME Apollo features then Greek
          > influence is a possibility and should be looked at. But, if you are
          > going to identify an IE deity type with ALL Apollo's characteristics
          > then you will have to look to Greece as the origin for that deity
          > type. The reason for this that Apollo is very unique in the IE
          world
          > and was definately created in Greece. He's a composite of different
          > Dorian, Minoan, and Syro-Hittite elements and deities under one god.
          > This makes Apollo hard to classify using the IE deity types as he
          > doesn't truely fit into one exclusive type.
          >
          > It would be interesting to hear more on what you have found on the
          > transitional period to support European neolithic elements in IE
          > mythology. In many cases in Europe, such as the transition from
          > Neolithic culture to Celtic culture in Britian, the transition was
          > gradual and integrated. The early physical evidence from Celtic
          > Britain shows the continuation of Neolithic culture. Now how to go
          > from physical evidence to mythological evidence?
          >
          > My personal feelings (I don't have an arguement worked out) is that
          > the pre-IE deities had much in common with the IE deities. I think
          > they had a Sky Father, Sky goddess, Earth Mother, Hearth deity, Sun
          > deity, Moon deity, Sea/water deity, a Hag-witch figure, a world
          > tree,and world divied into three realms. These are only a few
          > examples. So to transition to an IE system or add IE features was
          not
          > that difficult nor did it create a culture split from it's original
          roots.
          >
          > By the way, I'm not arguing that Neolithic Europe had a Great
          Goddess
          > or was a Matriarchy. There are so many commanalities with deities
          and
          > mythologies covering areas larger than the IE territories that I
          think
          > mythically the IEs are a subgroup of a larger complex.
          >
          > Sarah
          >
        • bhmsympatico
          andelkod wrote: ... so I don t understand why you can t accept that some IE gods have neolithic origin. Andelko, I think that in European
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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            "andelkod" <andelkod@y...> wrote:"... so I don't understand why you
            can't accept that some IE gods have neolithic origin."

            Andelko,
            I think that in European the IE deities have pre-IE elements. What
            I'm looking for is proof other than material culture. I think that
            Witzel has done this in a number of areas by comparing mythology
            across Eurasia and North America.
          • andelkod
            Interesting thing is that accidentally found neolithic stone axe is widely regarded as thunderbolt and said that it falls on the ground whenever there is a
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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              Interesting thing is that accidentally found neolithic stone axe is
              widely regarded as thunderbolt and said that it falls on the ground
              whenever there is a storm. So, there we have direct connection of
              thunder god main attribute with neolithic weaponry.

              --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "bhmsympatico" <bhm@s...> wrote:
              >
              > "andelkod" <andelkod@y...> wrote:"... so I don't understand why you
              > can't accept that some IE gods have neolithic origin."
              >
              > Andelko,
              > I think that in European the IE deities have pre-IE elements. What
              > I'm looking for is proof other than material culture. I think that
              > Witzel has done this in a number of areas by comparing mythology
              > across Eurasia and North America.
              >
            • CeiSerith@aol.com
              In a message dated 12/1/2005 7:19:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, bhm@sympatico.ca writes: What I m saying is if there are SOME Apollo features then Greek
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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                In a message dated 12/1/2005 7:19:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                bhm@... writes:

                What I'm saying is if there are SOME Apollo features then Greek
                influence is a possibility and should be looked at. But, if you are
                going to identify an IE deity type with ALL Apollo's characteristics
                then you will have to look to Greece as the origin for that deity
                type. The reason for this that Apollo is very unique in the IE world
                and was definately created in Greece. He's a composite of different
                Dorian, Minoan, and Syro-Hittite elements and deities under one god.
                This makes Apollo hard to classify using the IE deity types as he
                doesn't truely fit into one exclusive type.



                This makes perfect sense, given the mix of cultures in the Levant. I would
                add the Perkwunos complex -- Apollo, wielder of the fiery aerial weapon,
                kills the serpent, freeing the inspiration which comes from the well.

                Ceisiwr Serith


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mrcaws
                One piece of evidence linking Apollo to the Anatolian world: A Hittite inscription to Apulunas , god of the gate, accepted by many scholars as identical to
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 1, 2005
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                  One piece of evidence linking Apollo to the Anatolian world: A
                  Hittite inscription to "Apulunas", god of the gate, accepted by many
                  scholars as identical to Apollo.

                  Apollo also seeems reminescent of Rudra(healing and pestilence, bow
                  and arrow). It was mentioned that Apollo seems to have some aspects
                  of Perkwunos(aerial projectile, dragon-slaying). Rudra does as well,
                  being depicted either with bow/arrow, or with a thunderbolt for a
                  weapon.

                  Cort Williams




                  --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, CeiSerith@a... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 12/1/2005 7:19:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  > bhm@s... writes:
                  >
                  > What I'm saying is if there are SOME Apollo features then Greek
                  > influence is a possibility and should be looked at. But, if you
                  are
                  > going to identify an IE deity type with ALL Apollo's
                  characteristics
                  > then you will have to look to Greece as the origin for that deity
                  > type. The reason for this that Apollo is very unique in the IE
                  world
                  > and was definately created in Greece. He's a composite of
                  different
                  > Dorian, Minoan, and Syro-Hittite elements and deities under one
                  god.
                  > This makes Apollo hard to classify using the IE deity types as he
                  > doesn't truely fit into one exclusive type.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This makes perfect sense, given the mix of cultures in the
                  Levant. I would
                  > add the Perkwunos complex -- Apollo, wielder of the fiery aerial
                  weapon,
                  > kills the serpent, freeing the inspiration which comes from the
                  well.
                  >
                  > Ceisiwr Serith
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • CeiSerith@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/1/2005 8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, MrCaws@hotmail.com writes: One piece of evidence linking Apollo to the Anatolian world: A
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 6, 2005
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                    In a message dated 12/1/2005 8:00:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    MrCaws@... writes:

                    One piece of evidence linking Apollo to the Anatolian world: A
                    Hittite inscription to "Apulunas", god of the gate, accepted by many
                    scholars as identical to Apollo.
                    How is the change from "god of the gate" to the sort of god Apollo is
                    explained under this theory?
                    Could this rather be explained as Apollo being an eastern Mediterranean
                    god who survived into Greek religion? I know the dates make this hard, but is
                    there any evidence for him, or a god like him, outside of Greece and perhaps
                    Anatolia?

                    >It was mentioned that Apollo seems to have some aspects
                    of Perkwunos(aerial projectile, dragon-slaying).


                    The fumes of the oracle at Delphi might also be seen as providing a
                    similar function to Nekter. Can the female prophets there be considered cognate
                    with the maidens who protect and care for Aquam Nepot, or the attendants of
                    the well of Nechtan? If so, what would this mean?

                    Ceisiwr Serith


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • CeiSerith@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/30/2005 8:23:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bhm@sympatico.ca writes: Greek import can mean anything such a picking up a few mythic
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 6, 2005
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                      In a message dated 11/30/2005 8:23:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      bhm@... writes:

                      Greek import can mean anything such a picking up a few mythic features
                      or a story. It doesn't mean that the Greeks elimated Slavic culture.
                      But rather, they could have shared stories.

                      The whole Thracian religion isn't borrowed from the Greeks but they do
                      have Greek influence and some Greek gods.

                      -Sarah
                      Sharing of gods and myths was probably about as common as loanwords.
                      Ritual seems more like grammar, though; although new gods tend to bring along
                      new ritual (witness the worship in Rome of certain Greek deities with Greek
                      rituals), ritual seems very conservative. This makes a lot of sense; picking up
                      a new deity can be a good idea -- the more gods to help us the better -- and
                      myths come along for the ride -- how else to describe these new deities?
                      But it's a bit of a risk to come up with new ways to contact gods who seen to
                      be pleased with the old ones.


                      Old slavic gods, Perun and Veles
                      > belong to neolithic because of neolithic nature of their conflict.
                      > Veles hides himself under the stone, and Perun attacks him with his
                      > thunderbolt. There

                      If you wanted to hide from a thunderbolt in an ancient society, where
                      would you hide? I'd go either underground or under a stone.

                      Ceisiwr Serith


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • mrcaws
                      ... Mediterranean ... hard, but is ... and perhaps ... Interesting-Do you mean the non indo-european peoples populating the east mediterranean basin(sometimes
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 6, 2005
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                        > Could this rather be explained as Apollo being an eastern
                        Mediterranean
                        > god who survived into Greek religion? I know the dates make this
                        hard, but is
                        > there any evidence for him, or a god like him, outside of Greece
                        and perhaps
                        > Anatolia?

                        Interesting-Do you mean the non indo-european peoples populating the
                        east mediterranean basin(sometimes referred to as pelasgians). If so,
                        I think it's an interesting theory. I tend to think that Greek myth
                        in general was heavily influenced by Anatolian myth. Hesiod's
                        Theogony bears much closer resemblance to the Hittite/Hurrian
                        creation myths than to anything else, imo.

                        In addition to the Trojan connection, the region of Lycia seems to
                        have an especially close relationship to Apollo. Leto, Apollo, and
                        Artemis were prominently worshipped in this region. The cult of Leto,
                        from what I've read, was focused in the SW region of Anatolia.

                        Cort
                      • andelkod
                        I would slay the dragon with sword if I have it, not with thunderbolt. So I think that conflict still belongs to neolithic. Hittite Apulunas is also IE god. If
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 7, 2005
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                          I would slay the dragon with sword if I have it, not with thunderbolt.
                          So I think that conflict still belongs to neolithic.

                          Hittite Apulunas is also IE god. If not, you must prove his existance
                          in some other non IE culture, especially features like twin born of
                          supreme god, growing beyond Ocean (in the underworld), returning in
                          the spring, slaying the dragon.

                          Andelko


                          --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, CeiSerith@a... wrote:

                          > If you wanted to hide from a thunderbolt in an ancient society,
                          where
                          > would you hide? I'd go either underground or under a stone.
                          >
                          > Ceisiwr Serith
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • mrcaws
                          It seems to me that Apollo/Apulunas may well have been an IE god originally fron an Anatolian IE mythos(Hittite, Luwian)-The elements of the myth you mention .
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 7, 2005
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                            It seems to me that Apollo/Apulunas may well have been an IE god
                            originally fron an Anatolian IE mythos(Hittite, Luwian)-The elements
                            of the myth you mention . I wouldn't rule out the deity being an
                            aggregate of IE and Near Eastern attributes, however.

                            Cort

                            --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "andelkod" <andelkod@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I would slay the dragon with sword if I have it, not with
                            thunderbolt.
                            > So I think that conflict still belongs to neolithic.
                            >
                            > Hittite Apulunas is also IE god. If not, you must prove his
                            existance
                            > in some other non IE culture, especially features like twin born of
                            > supreme god, growing beyond Ocean (in the underworld), returning in
                            > the spring, slaying the dragon.
                            >
                            > Andelko
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, CeiSerith@a... wrote:
                            >
                            > > If you wanted to hide from a thunderbolt in an ancient
                            society,
                            > where
                            > > would you hide? I'd go either underground or under a stone.
                            > >
                            > > Ceisiwr Serith
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • andelkod
                            Some thoughts which come to my mind when reading about hittite religion. Hittite god Telepinus shares also some similarities with Yarilo. He is favorite son of
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 21, 2005
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                              Some thoughts which come to my mind when reading about hittite
                              religion.
                              Hittite god Telepinus shares also some similarities with Yarilo. He is
                              favorite son of Thunder-god and protector of agriculture. He also
                              stays some time in the steppe land (before returning in the spring and
                              restoring fertility), which is similar to Apollo's Hyperborean phase
                              and Yarilo's underworld phase. Actually the story of kidnapping Yarilo
                              by Veles people is in hittite religion reflected by a story in which
                              the Sea-god kidnapps the Sun-god of Heaven.
                              Regarding Apollo's pestilence features, hittite god Yarris was also
                              god of pestilence and maybe similarity of his name with Yarilo isn't
                              mere coincidence, although Yarilo doesn' share that feature.
                              Also, hittite Ereshigal, goddess of the earth and the nether-world,
                              mother of Storm-god who plays a role in his return from the Underworld
                              by opening the gates of the Dark Earth resemblances slavic motif of
                              golden keys, which are used to unlock the spring and fertility, and
                              Yarilo's return from the Underworld in the spring.
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