Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: PIE anthropogeny

Expand Messages
  • david_russell_watson
    Oh I see now: you re just crazy. My apologies for interrupting your rambling. Carry on. David ... ... Great) ... language ... you ...
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2005
      Oh I see now: you're just crazy.

      My apologies for interrupting your rambling. Carry on.

      David

      --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Dirk Howat" <dirk_howat@h...>
      wrote:
      > --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "david_russell_watson"
      > <liberty@p...> wrote:
      > > --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, "Dirk Howat"
      <dirk_howat@h...>
      > > wrote:> 'Ariomannus' is unrelated to 'Aryaman', if that's what
      > > you mean here, but isn't the name of a god in any case.
      > >
      >
      >
      > Ariomannus is from gual.
      > Manus is Germanic from tacitus.
      >
      >
      >
      > > This part gives the impression that you equate 'Aryan'
      > > with 'Proto-Indo-European'. You do know that that idea
      > > was long ago rejected, do you not?
      >
      > Was is PIE?
      >
      > If study more IE languages you know the deal and realize that PIE =
      > Aryan but is not "politcal correct".
      >
      >
      >
      > In the Rig Veda you have Aryanman, some scholars thought it
      > men "Aryan hood personified" by in my take is like Manu type of God
      > the tribal begettor god of the Arya, the people of the Vedas.
      >
      > Then I remember I came across this word Gauls used "Ariomannus"
      >
      > Then you have the Gothic name Airmanareiks (Airman + reiks
      > (power/ruler). Lit, the power of Airman or the ruler of Airman.
      >
      > Aryaman (they called themselves arya ).
      > Ariomannus,
      > Ariovistus - historical individual.
      > Airmanareiks (Ermanaric) historical individual.
      >
      > IMO, this would translate to:
      > Airmanareiks
      > Irmin - ric
      >
      >
      > Arya
      > Ario
      > Air
      >
      > Ir
      >
      > Irmin the god as the sybol of the begetor of the people.
      > Ruler or power of Irmin, the Sky God of the tree symbolizing cosmic
      > expansion as Irminsul, the pillar of Irmin, the original Teutonic
      > Sky god.
      >
      > Thus you archaic Teutonic religion
      >
      >
      >
      > Skt Aryaman
      > Zorastrain Airyaman
      > Gaul Ariomanus
      > Gothic Airmanreiks
      > Ireland Ermon
      > Anglo Saxon Irmin
      >
      > For all our sons, good wives.
      > For all our daughters, good husbands.
      > For all our people, happiness and health
      > in a land ruled by just law:
      > Aryamen, we pray to you.
      >
      > Dyéus Patér and Aryamen are often linked together, here is a prayer
      > for them both:
      >
      > Dyéus Patér Aryamenkwe:
      > May what we do be according to the Dhétis.
      > May what we accomplish conform to the Artus.
      >
      > Dyeus Pater and Aryaman
      > Tiuz Fader and Irmin
      >
      > The Meaning of Air
      > In Hitite, it means belonging to one's own group,peer, friend.
      > In old irish aire means free, noble.
      >
      > In general, when one wants to understand the origins of a language
      > or a religion, the earliest texts, linguistic meaning are most
      > valuable. Thus, Hititte being older, Airoman would mean the god of
      > our group. In gothic, something like, the god of our kuni(kind),
      > Airmanreiks, or the power of our kuni, the ruler of our kuni.
      >
      > So if this was the god of our thjod, then you would look for some
      > degree of a latter afteraffect relevence.
      >
      >
      > Rigsthula, Rig(ON Rik, Gothic Reiks) begets man.
      > This god would be the ruler of the kuni, of that kind.
      > It is not far to understand that Rig/Rik/Reiks is Airmanoreiks,
      > Aryaman. The god who begets the Arya/Airo/Ir - mans.
      >
      > Earliest is Veda society where Manu (lit man) gave laws as the Laws
      > of Manu which relates establishing society according to their way,
      > to contracts of god and man, man and man, and man and women. Rig in
      > ON, taught Jarl, knowledge, taught him runes, the mysteries of
      > existence.
      > Thus, the God Generator begets man, his kuni, and is his link to the
      > divine. Irman the god of the thuida, begets man and gives him god-
      > law.
      > The problem lie in early self indentification.
      > Early in India, they called themselves Arya as stated in the Rig
      > Veda. What would this be in a Teutonic context? Ir. Or better yet,
      > Irmins.
      >
      > We must look at Germania:
      > In their old ballads (which amongst them are the only sort of
      > registers and history) they celebrate Tuisto, a God sprung from the
      > earth, and Mannus his son, as the fathers and founders of the
      > nation. To Mannus they assign three sons, after whose names so many
      > people are called; the Ingaevones, dwelling next the ocean; the
      > Herminones, in the middle country; and all the rest, Instaevones.
      > Some, borrowing a warrant from the darkness of antiquity, maintain
      > that the God had more sons, that thence came more denominations of
      > people, the Marsians, Gambrians, Suevians, and Vandalians, and that
      > these are the names truly genuine and original.
      >
      >
      > Tiuz - The original PIE sky god, in Rigsthula as Reiks, the Ruler
      > proper, the god, begets three kuni, Thrall, Karl, Jarl. Jarl is the
      > favored and taught god knowlege, i.e. runes which really symbolizes
      > the way of god, the knowledge of existence and God. He is the man.
      > If you were Hebrew, he would be choosen. In Germania, Tacitus
      > states it is Tuisto, surely Tiews, who begets Mannus (see Arya Laws
      > of Manu), and from there has three sons. One being none other then
      > Herminones which is the Irmins, or something to that affect. As the
      > favored people in Rigsthula and looking at the absence of the other
      > names (Instaevones, Ingaevones/Vanir) you would believe that Hititte
      > Ariyaman, Sanskrit Aryaman, Gaul Ariomanus, Gothic Airmanreiks, OS
      > Irman, and the absence of extant relevence, importance to the other
      > kuni, that:
      >
      > the proto-Germanic religion is originated from (in Germania terms):
      >
      > Tuisto
      > Mannus
      > Herminones
      >
      >
      >
      > The Instaevones, Ingaevones/Vanir people, if Tacitus is fully
      > accurate, are not proper in, i.e. foreign to, Teutonic religion, and
      > maybe not even Indo-European at all.
      >
      > So from Germania to Gothic:
      > Tiews
      > Mans (not sure) but most probably Airmanareiks
      > Airman
      >
      > Then in Gothic you have this word:
      >
      > Mana-seth
      > man - seed
      >
      > So our would, or heim, gard, could be called a manaseth in Gothic.
      > Which corresponds to Rig doing his seeding-deed in Rigsthula to
      > create us.
      > Which, IMO, relates to Tiews/Airmanareiks begetting the Irmins or
      > Aryans.
      >
      > Earliest extant
      > Sanskrit, Hititte, Zorastrian
      >
      > Aryaman
      > Manu (laws of man establishing godlaws, the right, rita)
      >
      >
      >
      > ADVERTISEMENT
      >
      >
      > Linguistic Proof (earliest to latest, using logical consistentcy).
      >
      > Dyaus Pitar
      > Aryaman
      > Manu (Laws of Manu from Aryaman creating Arya as a
      > spiritual/material connection to god.)
      > Arya
      >
      > Germania:
      > Tuisto
      > Mannus
      > Herminones
      >
      > Gothic:
      > Airmanareiks
      > Mana-seth
      >
      > Old Norse:
      >
      > Rigr
      > Jarl (the Noble man, rather then Thrall/Slave, Karl/farmer).
      >
      >
      > Logical construction leads to:
      >
      >
      > Irmin/Teiws (god of law among other attributes).
      > Irminsul (the pillar of god/irmin, the tree of life, the tree of
      > god, i.e. world, as the expansion of space and time creating
      > existence, Trees expand and grow as does our cosmos)
      > Irminaric (the power of god being manifest in space in time)
      > Manaseth (creating a kuni with his man-seed, the result being)
      > Irmins (which in gothic are thuida, or people living in Gutthiuda,
      > the people flowing from god from his manaseth if Gutthiuda means
      > land of the Gotic people and Goth means to pour out)
      >
      > From their perspective and god, they are man (mannus/madr) and
      > people (thuida/thjod). But their self identification is with god as
      > in Herminones/ Irmins.
      >
      > From another context:
      >
      > Irmin/Irmins
      > God/Gods
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >
      > > There's no evidence for the speakers of any other branch
      > > of Indo-European beside the Indo-Iranian ever referring
      > > to themselves as 'Arya-' or 'Aryana-'.
      >
      >
      > False. see above.
      >
      >
      >
      > > In what sense is it a farce? You say yourself above "As
      > > Aryans evolved and migrated, as time progressed, the
      > > religion changed, myths were transmuted." So at what
      > > point did it undergo sufficient change for you to deem
      > > it no longer Aryan?
      >
      > Because the dasus overturned the Aryan gods, particularly Indra who
      > was the dasus enemies. Once the non aryans overturned the theology,
      > they created their own which is more in line with Buddhism.
      >
      >
      > >
      > > > The story of Dionysus going east and conquering (which was an
      > > > lauded goal of the ancients, e.g. Hercules, Alexander the
      Great)
      > > > is a retelling of prior, oral history (inevitably imbellished
      > > > over thousands of years).
      > >
      > > But again, Greeks could have had no oral history of the
      > > entry of the Indo-Aryans into India, since the latter
      > > were not their own ancestors. Surely you mean something
      > > else and I'm failing to understand.
      >
      >
      > You have a false paradigm. I believe the Myceans, and Dorians were
      > PIE aryans. As time evolved, so did the religion as did the
      language
      > evolve from PIE to greek. This is common sense. What I was refering
      > to is that there was an PIE religion which evolved to Greek, but
      you
      > have a after effect which indicates that Aryans went to India and
      > went to war and established a religion. This is Dionysus who was a
      > begettor ala Rig in Norse Rigsthula. Remember, the laws of Manu,
      > this is the brother of Rigsthula and is correlary to Dionysus
      > the "begetor god" the god with many women, who by the kings
      consent,
      > had sex with the queen, who bore a child. This is the same as Rig
      in
      > rigsthula.
      >
      >
      > This is PIE religion right?
    • CeiSerith@aol.com
      In a message dated 4/30/2005 7:07:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I think it highly likely that at least some of the PIEs called themselves *arya. (The EIEC
      Message 2 of 8 , May 2, 2005
        In a message dated 4/30/2005 7:07:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
        dirk_howat@... writes:

        > If study more IE languages you know the deal and realize that PIE =
        > Aryan but is not "politcal correct".

        I think it highly likely that at least some of the PIEs called themselves
        *arya. (The EIEC prefers the possibility that it was used to mean something
        more like "free people," as opposed to slaves.) However, outside of Nazism,
        "Aryan" is used by linguists to mean "the culture and language that came into
        India with the Indo-Europeans; these invading Indo-Europeans are called Aryans."
        However, the Aryans would not have been PIE, but Indo-Iranian.
        So if you study more IE linguistics, you will realize that "Aryan" does
        not equal PIE.


        For all our sons, good wives.
        > For all our daughters, good husbands.
        > For all our people, happiness and health
        > in a land ruled by just law:
        > Aryamen, we pray to you.
        >
        > Dyéus Patér and Aryamen are often linked together, here is a prayer
        > for them both:
        >
        > Dyéus Patér Aryamenkwe:
        > May what we do be according to the Dhétis.
        > May what we accomplish conform to the Artus.
        >
        If you want to quote me, I would prefer that you say that it's my work
        rather than plagiarizing. I probably shouldn't give you any help in plagiarizing,
        but it would be a good idea if you used a more recent version from my
        website: Proto-Indo-European Religion -> Deities .

        >
        > Tuisto
        > Mannus
        > Herminones
        >
        > The Instaevones, Ingaevones/Vanir people, if Tacitus is fully
        > accurate, are not proper in, i.e. foreign to, Teutonic religion, and
        > maybe not even Indo-European at all.
        >
        > So from Germania to Gothic:
        > Tiews
        > Mans (not sure) but most probably Airmanareiks
        > Airman
        > <FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="
        Tuisto means "Twin." Doing a little etymology without a license, I would
        think that it's a past participle of a verb meaning "make something two," from
        a form of *dwo. If by Tiews you are connecting it with the god-nameTiw you
        are wrong.
        I don't know the etymology of Hermiones, but it can't be related to any of
        the *arya- words. They come from a PIE *H2ero's ~ *H4eryos "member of one's
        own (ethnic) group, peer, freeman; (Indo-Iranian) Aryan" (EIEC:213) (see what
        I mean about Aryan referring to the Indics?), ultimately from *H4er- "put
        together." (The EIEC adds an *H4 to the usual three laryngeals, using it for
        those *H2s that are continued into Albanian as [h] when word-initial before an
        originally stressed vowel (462). This is a very idiosyncratic usage, and I
        generally write all of them as *H2. This sometimes survival of a laryngeal into
        Albanian and also a sometimes survival of *H2 and *H3 into Armenian is, by the
        way, why my phonetic representations of PIE words include the laryngeals;
        although it is perfectly reasonable that Albanian and Armenian influenced each
        other, the fact that the any of the laryngeals exist in either, as well as in
        Hittite, of course, says to me that they survived until a late date in PIE.)
        However, Germanic [h] comes from PIE *k, either palatalized or straight up. Any
        reflex of *H2eros/H2erya in Germanic would have to start with an **[a] rather
        than [h], since the laryngeal's coloring act would have been accomplished and
        then it would have disappeared.

        Next follows some stream of consciousness that ignores the rules of
        comparison of both linguistics and cultures, so I will ignore it.
        > >
        > >There's no evidence for the speakers of any other branch
        > >of Indo-European beside the Indo-Iranian ever referring
        > >to themselves as 'Arya-' or 'Aryana-'.
        >
        > False. see above.
        >
        True; see above.


        >>The story of Dionysus going east and conquering (which was an
        > >>lauded goal of the ancients, e.g. Hercules, Alexander the Great)
        > >>is a retelling of prior, oral history (inevitably imbellished
        > >>over thousands of years).
        >
        Hercules went in all sorts of directions, conquering peoples and slaying
        monsters along the way. To find significance in any journey of his to the east
        is to pick out the story that best fits your theory rather than looking at
        all the evidence.


        You have a false paradigm. I believe the Myceans, and Dorians were
        > PIE aryans. As time evolved, so did the religion as did the language
        > evolve from PIE to greek. This is common sense. What I was refering
        > to is that there was an PIE religion which evolved to Greek, but you
        > have a after effect which indicates that Aryans went to India and
        > went to war and established a religion.

        The Greeks went west and then south, the Aryans (the IE Indians) went east
        and then south. Different peoples, both from a third people, the PIEs.

        >
        > This is PIE religion right?
        >
        The list is. Your speculations aren't.

        Ceisiwr Serith





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • CeiSerith@aol.com
        In a message dated 5/1/2005 12:37:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... LOL. Pretty accurate assessment. Ceisiwr Serith [Non-text portions of this message have
        Message 3 of 8 , May 2, 2005
          In a message dated 5/1/2005 12:37:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
          liberty@... writes:

          > Oh I see now: you're just crazy.
          >
          > My apologies for interrupting your rambling. Carry on.
          >
          > David
          >
          LOL. Pretty accurate assessment.

          Ceisiwr Serith





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dirk Howat
          ... PIE = ... themselves ... something ... of Nazism, ... that came into ... called Aryans. ... that Aryan does ... The question is what did PIEs call
          Message 4 of 8 , May 4, 2005
            --- In PIEreligion@yahoogroups.com, CeiSerith@a... wrote:
            > In a message dated 4/30/2005 7:07:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            > dirk_howat@h... writes:
            >
            > > If study more IE languages you know the deal and realize that
            PIE =
            > > Aryan but is not "politcal correct".
            >
            > I think it highly likely that at least some of the PIEs called
            themselves
            > *arya. (The EIEC prefers the possibility that it was used to mean
            something
            > more like "free people," as opposed to slaves.) However, outside
            of Nazism,
            > "Aryan" is used by linguists to mean "the culture and language
            that came into
            > India with the Indo-Europeans; these invading Indo-Europeans are
            called Aryans."
            > However, the Aryans would not have been PIE, but Indo-Iranian.
            > So if you study more IE linguistics, you will realize
            that "Aryan" does
            > not equal PIE.


            The question is what did PIEs call themselves. The earliest as you
            mentioned was arya. The question is did other people call themselves
            arya or a name that came from the same root?

            As my last post indicated, the answer is yes.


            German or Irmin (Irmsul) from Herminones in tacitus the earliest
            info on Germanic people. The earliest is the best and Germn or Irmin
            evolved from arya. They are offshoots of the same word.

            I listed all of the Germanic word versions of arya to proof this.

            Disprove it.
            State what name they did call themselves.
          • CeiSerith@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/4/2005 8:38:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I m sorry, but I, and others, have already explained why you re wrong. If you don t like
            Message 5 of 8 , May 4, 2005
              In a message dated 5/4/2005 8:38:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              dirk_howat@... writes:

              >
              > Disprove it.
              > State what name they did call themselves.
              >
              I'm sorry, but I, and others, have already explained why you're wrong. If
              you don't like that, then feel free to go on believing what you wish. But
              since you are challenging the work of better scholars than any of us, the
              responsibility of proof is yours, not ours.

              Ceisiwr Serith





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.