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templates and turn undead

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  • Eric Jarman
    I m trying to build a template that allows a creature to turn undead as a cleric if its hit dice. I copied all of the following from the cleric class, but I
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 29, 2004
      I'm trying to build a template that allows a creature to turn undead as
      a cleric if its hit dice. I copied all of the following from the cleric
      class, but I can't get the turning table to show up on the character
      sheet. Is there something that I'm leaving out?

      FEAT:Basic Turning|Turn Undead

      BONUS:VAR|TURNCHECKBASE|CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
      BONUS:VAR|TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE|HD
      BONUS:VAR|TURNLEVELBASE|HD
      BONUS:VAR|TURNTIMESBASE|3+CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
      DEFINE:AllowExtraTurning|1
      DEFINE:AllowImprovedTurning|1
    • Eric Jarman
      Well, I got my template to work now like this: FEAT:Basic Turning|Turn Undead BONUS:VAR|TURNCHECKBASE|CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK BONUS:VAR|TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE|TL
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 29, 2004
        Well, I got my template to work now like this:

        FEAT:Basic Turning|Turn Undead
        BONUS:VAR|TURNCHECKBASE|CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
        BONUS:VAR|TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE|TL
        BONUS:VAR|TURNLEVELBASE|TL
        BONUS:VAR|TURNTIMESBASE|3+CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
        DEFINE:AllowExtraTurning|1
        DEFINE:AllowImprovedTurning|1

        But I cannot prevent it from stacking with levels of cleric or paladin. I have tried putting "|TYPE=NOSTACK" and "|TYPE=REPLACE" on the TurnDamagePlusBase and TurnLevelBase, but it always stacks regardless. Might this be a bug?


        Eric Jarman wrote:

        >I'm trying to build a template that allows a creature to turn undead as
        >a cleric if its hit dice. I copied all of the following from the cleric
        >class, but I can't get the turning table to show up on the character
        >sheet. Is there something that I'm leaving out?
        >
        >FEAT:Basic Turning|Turn Undead
        >
        >BONUS:VAR|TURNCHECKBASE|CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
        >BONUS:VAR|TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE|HD
        >BONUS:VAR|TURNLEVELBASE|HD
        >BONUS:VAR|TURNTIMESBASE|3+CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
        >DEFINE:AllowExtraTurning|1
        >DEFINE:AllowImprovedTurning|1
        >
        >
        >
      • Frugal
        ... Hmmm... according to the docs the TYPE=NOSTACK will actually be declaring the type of the bonus to be NOSTACK rather than saying make this an untyped
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
          On Thu, September 30, 2004 4:57 am, Eric Jarman said:
          > Well, I got my template to work now like this:
          >
          > FEAT:Basic Turning|Turn Undead
          > BONUS:VAR|TURNCHECKBASE|CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
          > BONUS:VAR|TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE|TL
          > BONUS:VAR|TURNLEVELBASE|TL
          > BONUS:VAR|TURNTIMESBASE|3+CHA|TYPE=NOSTACK
          > DEFINE:AllowExtraTurning|1
          > DEFINE:AllowImprovedTurning|1
          >
          > But I cannot prevent it from stacking with levels of cleric or paladin. I
          > have tried putting "|TYPE=NOSTACK" and "|TYPE=REPLACE" on the
          > TurnDamagePlusBase and TurnLevelBase, but it always stacks regardless.
          > Might this be a bug?

          Hmmm... according to the docs the TYPE=NOSTACK will actually be declaring
          the type of the bonus to be NOSTACK rather than saying "make this an
          untyped bonus and do not stack this bonus with other bonuses of this
          type".

          Looking through the code and the there are zero references to NOSTACK.
          Choosing NOSTACK as the type of the bonus appears to be causing some
          confusion.

          The default cleric bonus for TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE and TURNLEVELBASE are
          untyped bonuses. An untyped bonus will stack with other untyped bonuses.
          So you need to make your bonuses untyped and subtract the existing bonus
          given by clerics and paladins

          BONUS:VAR|TURNDAMAGEPLUSBASE|TL-(CL=Cleric+CL=Paladin)
          BONUS:VAR|TURNLEVELBASE|TL-(CL=Cleric+CL=Paladin)

          --
          regards,
          Frugal
          -OS Chimp
        • tir_gwaith
          TYPE=NOSTACK ??? Where did that come from? Someone thinks it would act differently than TYPE=Foo ?? I can only remember on special TYPE= in BONUSes, and
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
            TYPE=NOSTACK ??? Where did that come from? Someone thinks it would
            act differently than TYPE=Foo ?? I can only remember on special
            TYPE= in BONUSes, and that was TYPE=NotRanged.

            If people want to start doing stuff that doesn't stack with the
            Turning stuff, then we'll need to start TYPEing the BONUS:VARs.

            DM FReq, please, TMs. Not in the 5.8 scope.

            Thanks for catching it, Frugal. I glossed over that post.

            Tir Gwaith
            LST Chimp
          • Chris
            ... TYPE=NaturalArmor too :) Barak
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
              > TYPE=NOSTACK ??? Where did that come from? Someone thinks it would
              > act differently than TYPE=Foo ?? I can only remember on special
              > TYPE= in BONUSes, and that was TYPE=NotRanged.

              TYPE=NaturalArmor too :)

              Barak
            • Paul W. King
              [ 1037680 ] TYPE=NOSTACK http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php? func=detail&aid=1037680&group_id=36698&atid=417819 Paul W. King TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                [ 1037680 ] TYPE=NOSTACK
                http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
                func=detail&aid=1037680&group_id=36698&atid=417819

                Paul W. King
                TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD
              • tir_gwaith
                TYPE=NaturalArmor doesn t do anything special in the code... At least it didn t last time I checked. What did you do, Barak???? ... would
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                  TYPE=NaturalArmor doesn't do anything special in the code... At
                  least it didn't last time I checked. What did you do, Barak????

                  --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
                  > > TYPE=NOSTACK ??? Where did that come from? Someone thinks it
                  would
                  > > act differently than TYPE=Foo ?? I can only remember on special
                  > > TYPE= in BONUSes, and that was TYPE=NotRanged.
                  >
                  > TYPE=NaturalArmor too :)
                  >
                  > Barak
                • tir_gwaith
                  ... Call it something like TYPE Turning VAR bonuses..... Thanks, Tir Gwaith LST Chimp
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                    Paul, I wanted this part trackered:

                    > If people want to start doing stuff that doesn't stack with the
                    > Turning stuff, then we'll need to start TYPEing the BONUS:VARs.
                    >
                    > DM FReq, please, TMs. Not in the 5.8 scope.

                    Call it something like TYPE Turning VAR bonuses.....

                    Thanks,

                    Tir Gwaith
                    LST Chimp


                    --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Paul W. King"
                    <paulking.rhochi@v...> wrote:
                    > [ 1037680 ] TYPE=NOSTACK
                    > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?
                    > func=detail&aid=1037680&group_id=36698&atid=417819
                    >
                    > Paul W. King
                    > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD
                  • Chris
                    ... I didn t do anything. :p But that s how it splits out Natural Armor bonus from regular armor bonus. Been that way since I started working on .lst...
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                      > TYPE=NaturalArmor doesn't do anything special in the code... At
                      > least it didn't last time I checked. What did you do, Barak????

                      I didn't do anything. :p

                      But that's how it splits out Natural Armor bonus from regular armor
                      bonus. Been that way since I started working on .lst...

                      Barak
                    • Eric Jarman
                      ... I got it directly from rsrd_classes_base.lst in the cleric turn undead block. And TYPE=REPLACE i got from the documentation at pcgendocs.sourceforge.net,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                        tir_gwaith wrote:

                        >TYPE=NOSTACK ??? Where did that come from? Someone thinks it would
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        I got it directly from rsrd_classes_base.lst in the cleric turn undead
                        block.

                        And TYPE=REPLACE i got from the documentation at
                        pcgendocs.sourceforge.net, though now i suppose it doesn't work with an
                        unnamed bonus.
                      • Tir Gwaith
                        Armor is TYPE=Armor, Natural Armor is TYPE=NaturalArmor Two different TYPEs, like Foo and Foobar, if you wanted. That is how normal TYPEing of BONUS statements
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                          Armor is TYPE=Armor, Natural Armor is TYPE=NaturalArmor

                          Two different TYPEs, like Foo and Foobar, if you wanted. That is how normal
                          TYPEing of BONUS statements works.

                          Tir Gwaith
                          LST Chimp

                          > > TYPE=NaturalArmor doesn't do anything special in the code... At
                          > > least it didn't last time I checked. What did you do, Barak????
                          >
                          > I didn't do anything. :p
                          >
                          > But that's how it splits out Natural Armor bonus from regular armor
                          > bonus. Been that way since I started working on .lst...
                          >
                          > Barak
                        • Chris
                          ... Except the program behaves differently based on which one is used, just like it does with NotRanged. Which is why I was pointing it out. Natural in a
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                            > Armor is TYPE=Armor, Natural Armor is TYPE=NaturalArmor
                            >
                            > Two different TYPEs, like Foo and Foobar, if you wanted. That is how
                            > normal TYPEing of BONUS statements works.

                            Except the program behaves differently based on which one is used, just
                            like it does with NotRanged. Which is why I was pointing it out.

                            "Natural" in a weapon TYPE does the same thing in regards to the OS.
                            As does "Melee" and "Ranged" and several others. For that matter,
                            without "Weapon" an item wouldn't show up in the weapon output block.

                            TYPE does a lot more these days in PCGen than determine stacking (I
                            know you know that, but for any new people out there). :p
                          • Chris
                            ... That is correct. Unnamed bonuses stack, always, per the rules. Barak
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                              > And TYPE=REPLACE i got from the documentation at
                              > pcgendocs.sourceforge.net, though now i suppose it doesn't work with
                              > an unnamed bonus.

                              That is correct. Unnamed bonuses stack, always, per the rules.

                              Barak
                            • Eric Jarman
                              ... Maybe it should be a FREQ to add a tag specifically for determining bonus stacking, rather than having it rolled into the TYPE, and not necessarily acting
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                Chris wrote:

                                >>Armor is TYPE=Armor, Natural Armor is TYPE=NaturalArmor
                                >>
                                >>Two different TYPEs, like Foo and Foobar, if you wanted. That is how
                                >>normal TYPEing of BONUS statements works.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >Except the program behaves differently based on which one is used, just
                                >like it does with NotRanged. Which is why I was pointing it out.
                                >
                                >"Natural" in a weapon TYPE does the same thing in regards to the OS.
                                >As does "Melee" and "Ranged" and several others. For that matter,
                                >without "Weapon" an item wouldn't show up in the weapon output block.
                                >
                                >TYPE does a lot more these days in PCGen than determine stacking (I
                                >know you know that, but for any new people out there). :p
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                Maybe it should be a FREQ to add a tag specifically for determining
                                bonus stacking, rather than having it rolled into the TYPE, and not
                                necessarily acting the same on all types.
                                Something like STACK= REPLACE | STACK (like what is already described in
                                the docs), or maybe something as simple as STACK= YES | NO.
                              • Chris
                                ... And after this point I got confused and started talking about TYPE tag and not the TYPE that goes after a BONUS. Zheesh. Someone get me a Mountain Dew..
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                  >
                                  > > Armor is TYPE=Armor, Natural Armor is TYPE=NaturalArmor
                                  > > Two different TYPEs, like Foo and Foobar, if you wanted. That is

                                  > Except the program behaves differently based on which one is used,
                                  > just like it does with NotRanged. Which is why I was pointing it
                                  > out.

                                  And after this point I got confused and started talking about TYPE tag
                                  and not the TYPE that goes after a BONUS. Zheesh. Someone get me a
                                  Mountain Dew.. I need to wake up. :p

                                  Barak
                                • Tir Gwaith
                                  Good, you saved me the trouble of bonking you.... :P And, no, NaturalArmor is still a normal TYPE=, it just happens to be listed in some sets of OS tokens and
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                    Good, you saved me the trouble of bonking you.... :P

                                    And, no, NaturalArmor is still a normal TYPE=, it just happens to be listed
                                    in some sets of OS tokens and some GameMode preferences for AC types
                                    (flat-footed, touch, etc.)

                                    When talking about Hard-coding of a TYPE=, the only one I know of is
                                    NotRanged.

                                    Tir Gwaith
                                    LST Chimp

                                    > And after this point I got confused and started talking about TYPE tag
                                    > and not the TYPE that goes after a BONUS. Zheesh. Someone get me a
                                    > Mountain Dew.. I need to wake up. :p
                                    >
                                    > Barak
                                  • Paul W. King
                                    [ 1039278 ] add a tag specifically for determining bonus stacking http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1039278&group_id=25 576&atid=384722
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 2, 2004
                                      [ 1039278 ] add a tag specifically for determining bonus stacking
                                      http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1039278&group_id=25
                                      576&atid=384722

                                      Paul W. King
                                      TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Eric Jarman [mailto:ehj38230@...]
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:44 AM
                                      To: PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [PCGenListFileHelp] Re: [TM] templates and turn undead

                                      Maybe it should be a FREQ to add a tag specifically for determining bonus
                                      stacking, rather than having it rolled into the TYPE, and not necessarily
                                      acting the same on all types. Something like STACK= REPLACE | STACK (like
                                      what is already described in the docs), or maybe something as simple as
                                      STACK= YES | NO.
                                    • Tir Gwaith
                                      Ok, I don t understand this. Attached to BONUS statements? replacing the TYPE= ? Why exactly do we need this? TYPE= determines stacking.... Tir Gwaith LST
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 2, 2004
                                        Ok, I don't understand this. Attached to BONUS statements? replacing the
                                        TYPE= ?

                                        Why exactly do we need this? TYPE= determines stacking....

                                        Tir Gwaith
                                        LST Chimp

                                        > [ 1039278 ] add a tag specifically for determining bonus stacking
                                        >
                                        http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1039278&group_id=25
                                        > 576&atid=384722
                                        >
                                        > Paul W. King
                                        > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Eric Jarman [mailto:ehj38230@...]
                                        > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:44 AM
                                        > To: PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [PCGenListFileHelp] Re: [TM] templates and turn undead
                                        >
                                        > Maybe it should be a FREQ to add a tag specifically for determining bonus
                                        > stacking, rather than having it rolled into the TYPE, and not necessarily
                                        > acting the same on all types. Something like STACK= REPLACE | STACK (like
                                        > what is already described in the docs), or maybe something as simple as
                                        > STACK= YES | NO.
                                      • Eric Jarman
                                        When I thought about it some more, I suspect that it isn t really needed. I was getting confused by the TYPE=NOSTACK entries in the lst files for turn undead
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 3, 2004
                                          When I thought about it some more, I suspect that it isn't really needed.
                                          I was getting confused by the "TYPE=NOSTACK" entries in the lst files for turn
                                          undead on clerics, which has nothing to do with stacking.... Perhaps it would
                                          be a better idea to make an informal lst file coding standard to say that
                                          types would not be in all caps, while stacking rules would be in all caps.
                                          such as: TYPE=Nostack for the turn undead stuff. (I incorrectly assumed that
                                          it was an undocumented feature.)


                                          Quoting Tir Gwaith <thoron-tir-gwaith@...>:

                                          >
                                          > Ok, I don't understand this. Attached to BONUS statements? replacing the
                                          > TYPE= ?
                                          >
                                          > Why exactly do we need this? TYPE= determines stacking....
                                          >
                                          > Tir Gwaith
                                          > LST Chimp
                                          >
                                          > > [ 1039278 ] add a tag specifically for determining bonus stacking
                                          > >
                                          > http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1039278&group_id=25
                                          > > 576&atid=384722
                                          > >
                                          > > Paul W. King
                                          > > TM SB, OGL/PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, BoD
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: Eric Jarman [mailto:ehj38230@...]
                                          > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 11:44 AM
                                          > > To: PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [PCGenListFileHelp] Re: [TM] templates and turn undead
                                          > >
                                          > > Maybe it should be a FREQ to add a tag specifically for determining bonus
                                          > > stacking, rather than having it rolled into the TYPE, and not necessarily
                                          > > acting the same on all types. Something like STACK= REPLACE | STACK (like
                                          > > what is already described in the docs), or maybe something as simple as
                                          > > STACK= YES | NO.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


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                                        • Tir Gwaith
                                          ... turn ... would ... that ... Heh. From SRD35 Cleric entry: BONUS:VAR|TurnTimesBase|3+CHA|TYPE=NoStack I had to put a TYPE in there for some request (I
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 3, 2004
                                            > When I thought about it some more, I suspect that it isn't really needed.
                                            > I was getting confused by the "TYPE=NOSTACK" entries in the lst files for
                                            turn
                                            > undead on clerics, which has nothing to do with stacking.... Perhaps it
                                            would
                                            > be a better idea to make an informal lst file coding standard to say that
                                            > types would not be in all caps, while stacking rules would be in all caps.
                                            > such as: TYPE=Nostack for the turn undead stuff. (I incorrectly assumed
                                            that
                                            > it was an undocumented feature.)

                                            Heh. From SRD35 Cleric entry:
                                            BONUS:VAR|TurnTimesBase|3+CHA|TYPE=NoStack

                                            I had to put a TYPE in there for some request (I think someone overrides it
                                            somewhere, or it was a stacking issue with another class). Before it had
                                            not had a TYPE=.

                                            It isn't really an informal coding standard. More a formal LST standard....
                                            From the Docs, Under "Official Release LST standards"

                                            ------------
                                            RULE 4: Capitalization:

                                            HARDCODE = ALLCAPS.

                                            Defined in List files (GameMode or otherwise) = ProperCase.

                                            Example:

                                            BONUS:COMBAT|AC|5|TYPE=MyType

                                            BONUS, COMBAT, AC, and TYPE= are all hardcoded. MyType is defined in the
                                            List file (because it just got added!)
                                            ---------

                                            Cheerios!

                                            I guess this means we can delete the tracker that both Eddy and I commented
                                            in about not needing it. :)

                                            Tir Gwaith
                                            LST Chimp
                                          • Eric Jarman
                                            ... Ok, it s the lst editor in pcgen that s showing everything in allcaps. (Everything is as it should be in the lst file itself.) Would it be an easy change
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 4, 2004
                                              >It isn't really an informal coding standard. More a formal LST standard....
                                              >>From the Docs, Under "Official Release LST standards"
                                              >
                                              >------------
                                              >RULE 4: Capitalization:
                                              >
                                              >HARDCODE = ALLCAPS.
                                              >
                                              >Defined in List files (GameMode or otherwise) = ProperCase.
                                              >
                                              >Example:
                                              >
                                              >BONUS:COMBAT|AC|5|TYPE=MyType
                                              >
                                              >BONUS, COMBAT, AC, and TYPE= are all hardcoded. MyType is defined in the
                                              >List file (because it just got added!)
                                              >---------
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              Ok, it's the lst editor in pcgen that's showing everything in allcaps.
                                              (Everything is as it should be in the lst file itself.) Would it be an
                                              easy change to have the lst editor show things in the same case they are
                                              in the lst file?
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