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NATURALATTACKS help

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  • Randy Shipp
    I apologize if I seem like what I feel like: a newbie in slightly over his head! I m trying to get LST files cobbled together for Atlas Games Nyambe: African
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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      I apologize if I seem like what I feel like: a newbie in slightly over
      his head!

      I'm trying to get LST files cobbled together for Atlas Games' "Nyambe:
      African Adventures." I'm trying to get all the obvious stuff
      accomplished early, at which point I'll go back and start filling in
      the blanks. Currently, I'm working on races, one of which has two
      natural claw attacks at 1d4 damage each and a 1d6 bite.

      The NATURALATTACKS example in the docs shows:

      NATURALATTACKS:Claw,Weapon.Natural.Melee.Piercing.Slashing,*2,
      1d4|Bite,Weapon.Natural.Bludgeoning.Piercing.Slashing,*1,1d6

      ...and seems to imply that "*2" refers to there being two claw attacks
      while "*1" means there's only one bite attack. The documentation,
      however, says that that position is for defining the critical hit
      damage multiplier. Any clarification on that?

      Also, is there any documentation for the weapon types that are
      appended after "Weapon."? I have no idea what's appropriate for my
      race's particular bite and claw attacks, nor can I seem to figure out
      why the example claw would be "Melee" while the bite is not, nor why
      the bite has all three of Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, which the
      claw is only the latter two.

      Is all this just a documentation issue, or am I just learning how
      dense these LST files are? ;-)

      Randy...
    • Chris
      ... You have it correct. The *2 means they get two (* prepended means they are non-iterative) attacks. There is no way to define the critical multiplier with
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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        > ...and seems to imply that "*2" refers to there being two claw attacks
        > while "*1" means there's only one bite attack. The documentation,
        > however, says that that position is for defining the critical hit
        > damage multiplier. Any clarification on that?

        You have it correct. The *2 means they get two (* prepended means they
        are non-iterative) attacks. There is no way to define the critical
        multiplier with that tag. I'm not sure where that bit in the docs came
        from... it is most definitely incorrect.

        > Also, is there any documentation for the weapon types that are
        > appended after "Weapon."? I have no idea what's appropriate for my
        > race's particular bite and claw attacks, nor can I seem to figure out
        > why the example claw would be "Melee" while the bite is not, nor why
        > the bite has all three of Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, which the
        > claw is only the latter two.

        Every type should start with "Weapon.Natural", have either Melee or
        Ranged following and then you also need to put the damage types. I
        myself always add "Finesseable" so Weapon Finesse can be applied to
        them.

        The Bite example is incorrect and needs to have a "Melee" added in
        there.

        Bites have all three damage types because most races have molars
        (Bludgeoning) and incisors (Piercing and Slashing).

        > Is all this just a documentation issue, or am I just learning how
        > dense these LST files are? ;-)

        Docs issue for the most part, IMO. :)

        You should take a look at the PCGenLstFileClass group (I think I got
        that right).

        There are lessons/instruction for .pcc files and I recently finished a
        series on entering races, which included the NATURALATTACKS tag
        (although not much detail on the things to use in the type portion of
        the tag).

        Barak
      • Eddy Anthony
        I ve trackered this doc bug: [ 982017 ] NATURALATTACKS tag entry incorrect Thanks for pointing this out. ... -- ~ Eddy ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin ~ PCGen BoD
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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          I've trackered this doc bug:
          [ 982017 ] NATURALATTACKS tag entry incorrect

          Thanks for pointing this out.

          On 6/29/04 11:30 AM, "Chris" <barak@...> wrote:

          >> ...and seems to imply that "*2" refers to there being two claw attacks
          >> while "*1" means there's only one bite attack. The documentation,
          >> however, says that that position is for defining the critical hit
          >> damage multiplier. Any clarification on that?
          >
          > You have it correct. The *2 means they get two (* prepended means they
          > are non-iterative) attacks. There is no way to define the critical
          > multiplier with that tag. I'm not sure where that bit in the docs came
          > from... it is most definitely incorrect.
          >
          >> Also, is there any documentation for the weapon types that are
          >> appended after "Weapon."? I have no idea what's appropriate for my
          >> race's particular bite and claw attacks, nor can I seem to figure out
          >> why the example claw would be "Melee" while the bite is not, nor why
          >> the bite has all three of Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, which the
          >> claw is only the latter two.
          >
          > Every type should start with "Weapon.Natural", have either Melee or
          > Ranged following and then you also need to put the damage types. I
          > myself always add "Finesseable" so Weapon Finesse can be applied to
          > them.
          >
          > The Bite example is incorrect and needs to have a "Melee" added in
          > there.
          >
          > Bites have all three damage types because most races have molars
          > (Bludgeoning) and incisors (Piercing and Slashing).
          >
          >> Is all this just a documentation issue, or am I just learning how
          >> dense these LST files are? ;-)
          >
          > Docs issue for the most part, IMO. :)
          >
          > You should take a look at the PCGenLstFileClass group (I think I got
          > that right).
          >
          > There are lessons/instruction for .pcc files and I recently finished a
          > series on entering races, which included the NATURALATTACKS tag
          > (although not much detail on the things to use in the type portion of
          > the tag).
          >
          > Barak

          --
          ~ Eddy
          ~ Doc Chimp, Data Tamarin
          ~ PCGen BoD Documentation Second
        • Randy Shipp
          ... I know that s English, but I m having trouble figuring out exactly what you mean by non-iterative attacks. I realize that I probably don t need to
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
            > You have it correct. The *2 means they get two (* prepended means they
            > are non-iterative) attacks.

            ----------
            I know that's English, but I'm having trouble figuring out exactly
            what you mean by non-iterative attacks. I realize that I probably
            don't need to understand this for the immediate task at hand (just
            need to know to put "*2" for two claws), but I'm interested for
            completeness's sake.
            ----------

            > There is no way to define the critical
            > multiplier with that tag.

            ----------
            Is that just a sort of universal property of natural wespons, that
            they have a 20/x2 crit?
            ----------

            > I'm not sure where that bit in the docs came
            > from... it is most definitely incorrect.

            ----------
            Is that something I should figure out how to report, or will someone
            with an inside contact be able to pass that along?
            ----------

            > Every type should start with "Weapon.Natural", have either Melee or
            > Ranged following and then you also need to put the damage types. I
            > myself always add "Finesseable" so Weapon Finesse can be applied to
            > them.
            >
            > The Bite example is incorrect and needs to have a "Melee" added in
            > there.
            >
            > Bites have all three damage types because most races have molars
            > (Bludgeoning) and incisors (Piercing and Slashing).

            ----------
            I'm assuming that
            Bite,Weapon.Natural.Melee.Bludgeoning.Piercing.Slashing.Finesseable
            means that it does all three types of damage all the time, a la the
            morningstar. If I had a natural attack, say a prehensile tail with a
            dagger-like blade on it, how would I code it such that it could do
            either piercing OR slashing on each attack, a la the dagger?
            ----------

            > You should take a look at the PCGenLstFileClass group (I think I got
            > that right).
            >
            > There are lessons/instruction for .pcc files and I recently finished a
            > series on entering races, which included the NATURALATTACKS tag
            > (although not much detail on the things to use in the type portion of
            > the tag).

            ----------
            I'll certainly do that! Thanks!

            Randy...
          • Chris
            ... they ... LOL. Your character gets iterative attacks based on his BAB when using a weapon. +11/+6/+1 for example. If you used 2 instead of *2, the output
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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              > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
              > > You have it correct. The *2 means they get two (* prepended means
              they
              > > are non-iterative) attacks.
              >
              > ----------
              > I know that's English, but I'm having trouble figuring out exactly
              > what you mean by non-iterative attacks. I realize that I probably
              > don't need to understand this for the immediate task at hand (just
              > need to know to put "*2" for two claws), but I'm interested for
              > completeness's sake.
              > ----------

              LOL.

              Your character gets iterative attacks based on his BAB when using a
              weapon. +11/+6/+1 for example.

              If you used 2 instead of *2, the output would show (if the race has a
              high enough BAB) something like +11/+6/+1/+11/+6/+1 instead of +11/+11.

              Very few creatures get iterative attacks with their natural weapons
              (although there are some that do).

              > ----------
              > Is that just a sort of universal property of natural wespons, that
              > they have a 20/x2 crit?
              > ----------

              Basically it's how PCGen is coded, which has led to some difficulties
              in implementing feats that are supposed to affect the crit numbers of
              natural attacks.

              > ----------
              > Is that something I should figure out how to report, or will someone
              > with an inside contact be able to pass that along?
              > ----------

              Eddy already made a tracker for it, so no need.

              > ----------
              > If I had a natural attack, say a prehensile tail with a
              > dagger-like blade on it, how would I code it such that it could do
              > either piercing OR slashing on each attack, a la the dagger?
              > ----------

              No way to do that that I know of.

              > I'll certainly do that! Thanks!

              No problem!

              Barak
            • Randy Shipp
              I think I have a decent handle on how the natural weapons works for the race that has the two claws and a bite. My next question may just be a d20 rules
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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                I think I have a decent handle on how the natural weapons works for
                the race that has the two claws and a bite. My next question may just
                be a d20 rules question (and therefore off-topic).

                If a character who has both natural weapons (such as a bite) and a
                regular weapon (like sn axe), how are things handled when they full
                attack? Can they swing the axe and bite in the same action? If so,
                is it -6/-8 to hit, per PHB, p.160, or is there some special
                consideration since there are natural weapons involved. My
                understanding is that a character using only natural weaponry (say two
                claws (primary) and a bite) that full attacked with those weapons
                would take two claw attacks at the full attack bonus, and one bite at
                -5 (per the MM). What if they have a sword? Can they use sword, one
                claw, and a bite?

                Sorry if this is off-topic, but I just want to make sure that I have
                my races' natural weapons coded so as to take everything into account.

                Randy...
              • Emily Smirle
                ... -- Soylant Clear: Clearly less people, Clearly less fat.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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                  Randy Shipp wrote:

                  >I think I have a decent handle on how the natural weapons works for
                  >the race that has the two claws and a bite. My next question may just
                  >be a d20 rules question (and therefore off-topic).
                  >
                  >If a character who has both natural weapons (such as a bite) and a
                  >regular weapon (like sn axe), how are things handled when they full
                  >attack? Can they swing the axe and bite in the same action? If so,
                  >is it -6/-8 to hit, per PHB, p.160, or is there some special
                  >consideration since there are natural weapons involved. My
                  >understanding is that a character using only natural weaponry (say two
                  >claws (primary) and a bite) that full attacked with those weapons
                  >would take two claw attacks at the full attack bonus, and one bite at
                  >-5 (per the MM). What if they have a sword? Can they use sword, one
                  >claw, and a bite?
                  >
                  >Sorry if this is off-topic, but I just want to make sure that I have
                  >my races' natural weapons coded so as to take everything into account.
                  >

                  From the D&D 3.5 FAQ:

                  > What happens when a monster has a high base attack bonus, and it uses
                  > a manufactured weapon along with a secondary natural weaponry? For
                  > instance, suppose a 5th-level lizardfolk fighter wields a battleaxe.
                  > What would this creature’s attack routine be?
                  > Just add the natural secondary attacks to whatever manufactured
                  > attacks the creature can normally make. Assuming that the example
                  > character has five fighter levels, she has a base attack bonus of +6
                  > (+1 for being a lizard folk, +5 for fighter levels). Assuming the
                  > character doesn’t use a shield, she has two natural secondary attacks
                  > available—her bite and her free claw. There’s a –5 penalty when using
                  > a natural secondary weapons. So, when the character uses the full
                  > attack action, her attack routine is +6/+1 melee (battleaxe)/+1 melee
                  > (bite)/+1 melee (claw). However, if the example character were using
                  > the standard attack action instead, she could make only one attack.
                  > This single attack could be a +6 if she used the manufactured weapon
                  > or a claw (a lizard folk’s claws are the primary natural weapon), or
                  > +1 if the character chooses to bite. You always take the secondary
                  > weapon penalty when you use a secondary natural weapon (see the
                  > Monster Manual glossary).


                  --
                  Soylant Clear: Clearly less people, Clearly less fat.
                • Emily Smirle
                  ... Woops, pressed Send a little too quickly. You want to check out the 3.5 FAQ at www.wizards.com; page 28 covers everything you re asking about ;) To quote
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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                    Randy Shipp wrote:

                    >My understanding is that a character using only natural weaponry (say
                    >two claws (primary) and a bite) that full attacked with those weapons
                    >would take two claw attacks at the full attack bonus, and one bite at
                    >-5 (per the MM). What if they have a sword? Can they use sword, one
                    >claw, and a bite?
                    >
                    >Sorry if this is off-topic, but I just want to make sure that I have
                    >my races' natural weapons coded so as to take everything into account.
                    >
                    >

                    Woops, pressed Send a little too quickly.

                    You want to check out the 3.5 FAQ at www.wizards.com; page 28 covers
                    everything you're asking about ;)

                    To quote the relevant sections:
                    What happens when creatures use their natural weapons as secondary
                    attacks along with a manufactured weapon? For example, lizardfolk have
                    two claws that also serve as hands. What happens when they wield a
                    one-handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other? Do they lose
                    both claw attacks in exchange for their attacks with the weapon?

                    Wielding a manufactured weapon doesn’t prevent a creature from using all
                    its natural weaponry, provided that the creature is using the full
                    attack action and the additional natural weapons are free. The example
                    lizardfolk can’t make a claw attack with the “hand” that holds its
                    weapon, although it does get to attack with the weapon itself. But, if
                    it’s using the full attack action, it can use its other claw as a
                    natural secondary attack (-5 to attack rolls, half Strength bonus), and
                    can also bite as a natural secondary attack. In effect, the lizardfolk
                    is using its normal full attack routine with the manufactured weapon
                    attack substituted for one claw attack.

                    What happens when a monster has a high base attack bonus, and it uses a
                    manufactured weapon along with a secondary natural weaponry? For
                    instance, suppose a 5th-level lizardfolk fighter wields a battleaxe.
                    What would this creature’s attack routine be?

                    Just add the natural secondary attacks to whatever manufactured attacks
                    the creature can normally make. Assuming that the example character has
                    five fighter levels, she has a base attack bonus of +6 (+1 for being a
                    lizard folk, +5 for fighter levels). Assuming the character doesn’t use
                    a shield, she has two natural secondary attacks available—her bite and
                    her free claw. There’s a –5 penalty when using a natural secondary
                    weapons. So, when the character uses the full attack action, her attack
                    routine is +6/+1 melee (battleaxe)/+1 melee (bite)/+1 melee (claw).
                    However, if the example character were using the standard attack action
                    instead, she could make only one attack. This single attack could be a
                    +6 if she used the manufactured weapon or a claw (a lizard folk’s claws
                    are the primary natural weapon), or +1 if the character chooses to bite.
                    You always take the secondary weapon penalty when you use a secondary
                    natural weapon (see the Monster Manual glossary).

                    When a creature has natural weaponry, do all its natural weapons become
                    secondary attacks when it uses a manufactured weapon? If so, what
                    happens to the damage rating for a primary natural weapon that gets
                    demoted to secondary status?

                    When a creature uses both manufactured and natural weapons together with
                    the full attack action, treat the manufactured weapon as the primary
                    attack (using the creature’s full attack bonus) and treat all the
                    natural weapons as secondary natural attacks (–5 attack penalty, or –2
                    if the creature has the Multiattack feat). The basic damage rating for a
                    secondary natural weapon doesn’t change, but the creature gets only half
                    its Strength bonus to damage for the secondary attack, even if it would
                    otherwise be a primary natural weapon. The troll entry in the Monster
                    Manual provides a good example of this.

                    --
                    Soylant Clear: Clearly less people, Clearly less fat.
                  • Barak
                    I shoulda figured the Minotaur player would be able to answer this so well. ... Going to be at GenCon Em? Barak ... [snip]
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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                      I shoulda figured the Minotaur player would be able to answer this so well.
                      :)

                      Going to be at GenCon Em?

                      Barak

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Emily Smirle [mailto:smirle4498@...]

                      > You want to check out the 3.5 FAQ at www.wizards.com; page 28 covers
                      > everything you're asking about ;)
                      >
                      > To quote the relevant sections:

                      [snip]
                    • Randy Shipp
                      ... In talking to a DM friend today, he seemed to think that the normal multi-attack penalties (-6/-10, with some modifiers...+2 for being natural weapons
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 29, 2004
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                        --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Emily Smirle
                        <smirle4498@r...> wrote:
                        > From the D&D 3.5 FAQ:
                        >
                        > > What happens when a monster has a high base attack bonus, and it uses
                        > > a manufactured weapon along with a secondary natural weaponry? For
                        > > instance, suppose a 5th-level lizardfolk fighter wields a battleaxe.
                        > > What would this creature's attack routine be?
                        > > Just add the natural secondary attacks to whatever manufactured
                        > > attacks the creature can normally make. Assuming that the example
                        > > character has five fighter levels, she has a base attack bonus of +6
                        > > (+1 for being a lizard folk, +5 for fighter levels). Assuming the
                        > > character doesn't use a shield, she has two natural secondary attacks
                        > > available—her bite and her free claw. There's a –5 penalty when using
                        > > a natural secondary weapons. So, when the character uses the full
                        > > attack action, her attack routine is +6/+1 melee (battleaxe)/+1 melee
                        > > (bite)/+1 melee (claw). However, if the example character were using
                        > > the standard attack action instead, she could make only one attack.
                        > > This single attack could be a +6 if she used the manufactured weapon
                        > > or a claw (a lizard folk's claws are the primary natural weapon), or
                        > > +1 if the character chooses to bite. You always take the secondary
                        > > weapon penalty when you use a secondary natural weapon (see the
                        > > Monster Manual glossary).

                        ----------
                        In talking to a DM friend today, he seemed to think that the normal
                        multi-attack penalties (-6/-10, with some modifiers...+2 for being
                        natural weapons being "light") applied in cases where the Multi-Attack
                        feat wasn't used. Is this true?

                        Randy...
                      • Paul Grosse
                        ... Multi-attack is the same thing as Two Weapon fighting for normal PC s. And natural weapons are always light, until some source breaks that, so the attacks
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
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                          > In talking to a DM friend today, he seemed to think that the
                          > normal multi-attack penalties (-6/-10, with some
                          > modifiers...+2 for being natural weapons being "light")
                          > applied in cases where the Multi-Attack feat wasn't used. Is
                          > this true?
                          >
                          > Randy...

                          Multi-attack is the same thing as Two Weapon fighting for normal PC's.
                          And natural weapons are always light, until some source breaks that, so
                          the attacks would be at 0/-2/-2 instead of 0/-5/-5 (Note: can only be
                          taken by monsters with 3 or more natural attacks)

                          Paul G.
                        • Emily Smirle
                          ... Well, you know. Comes up alot. I was going to give a minotaur-based example, but the FAQ already had one with lizardmen, so I figured I d just steal it :)
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
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                            Barak wrote:

                            >I shoulda figured the Minotaur player would be able to answer this so well.
                            >:)
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            Well, you know. Comes up alot. I was going to give a minotaur-based
                            example, but the FAQ already had one with lizardmen, so I figured I'd
                            just steal it :)

                            >Going to be at GenCon Em?
                            >
                            >
                            I am afraid I am even more poor than last year, or the year before.
                            Morgage and all. On the plus side, I have a house.

                            I think I'd rather be at Gencon, but don't tell Andrew that :)


                            >>-----Original Message-----
                            >>From: Emily Smirle [mailto:smirle4498@...]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >>You want to check out the 3.5 FAQ at www.wizards.com; page 28 covers
                            >>everything you're asking about ;)
                            >>
                            >>To quote the relevant sections:
                            >>
                            >>


                            --
                            Soylant Clear: Clearly less people, Clearly less fat.
                          • Emily Smirle
                            ... uh, nope. The section quoted is pretty clear. Lizardmen don t have the Multi-Attack feat, and they make their weapon attack at no penalty, and their
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
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                              Randy Shipp wrote:

                              >--- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Emily Smirle
                              ><smirle4498@r...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >> From the D&D 3.5 FAQ:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>>What happens when a monster has a high base attack bonus, and it uses
                              >>>a manufactured weapon along with a secondary natural weaponry? For
                              >>>instance, suppose a 5th-level lizardfolk fighter wields a battleaxe.
                              >>>What would this creature's attack routine be?
                              >>>Just add the natural secondary attacks to whatever manufactured
                              >>>attacks the creature can normally make. Assuming that the example
                              >>>character has five fighter levels, she has a base attack bonus of +6
                              >>>(+1 for being a lizard folk, +5 for fighter levels). Assuming the
                              >>>character doesn't use a shield, she has two natural secondary attacks
                              >>>available—her bite and her free claw. There's a –5 penalty when using
                              >>>a natural secondary weapons. So, when the character uses the full
                              >>>attack action, her attack routine is +6/+1 melee (battleaxe)/+1 melee
                              >>>(bite)/+1 melee (claw). However, if the example character were using
                              >>>the standard attack action instead, she could make only one attack.
                              >>>This single attack could be a +6 if she used the manufactured weapon
                              >>>or a claw (a lizard folk's claws are the primary natural weapon), or
                              >>>+1 if the character chooses to bite. You always take the secondary
                              >>>weapon penalty when you use a secondary natural weapon (see the
                              >>>Monster Manual glossary).
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >
                              >----------
                              >In talking to a DM friend today, he seemed to think that the normal
                              >multi-attack penalties (-6/-10, with some modifiers...+2 for being
                              >natural weapons being "light") applied in cases where the Multi-Attack
                              >feat wasn't used. Is this true?
                              >
                              >

                              uh, nope. The section quoted is pretty clear. Lizardmen don't have the
                              Multi-Attack feat, and they make their weapon attack at no penalty, and
                              their natural attacks at -5. The example above is straight from Wizards
                              of the Coast, so I'm pretty sure this is what they intended.

                              If the sample lizardman had the Multi-Attack feat, he'd attack with the
                              sword at +6, and his bite/claw attacks at +4; the multi-attack feat only
                              reduces the penalty for secondary natural attacks. Any creature with
                              natural attacks can combine them with a weapon (or a monk unarmed strike
                              or monk flurry) without taking any special feats. It's one of the
                              benefits they get in exchange for not getting extra attacks with the
                              natural weapons for having a high base attack bonus.

                              --
                              Soylant Clear: Clearly less people, Clearly less fat.
                            • Randy Shipp
                              ... Thanks, Emily. I agree. My further reading in the MM has us all convinced. Thanks for helping clear that up. Back to the LSTs... Randy...
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 1, 2004
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                                --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Emily Smirle
                                <smirle4498@r...> wrote:

                                > uh, nope. The section quoted is pretty clear.

                                ----------
                                Thanks, Emily. I agree. My further reading in the MM has us all
                                convinced. Thanks for helping clear that up.

                                Back to the LSTs...

                                Randy...
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