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Re: racial deities

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  • Paul W. King
    ... Hmmm...hadn t thought of that issue. I was just thinking along the lines of elf, dwarf, halfling, etc., deities. But yes, you should also be able to take
    Message 1 of 24 , May 27, 2004
      > The problem is that the Outsider class requires PRERACE:Outsider,
      > so the template needs to change the race to Outsider :) But then it
      > can no longer increase as the original race type.

      Hmmm...hadn't thought of that issue. I was just thinking along the
      lines of elf, dwarf, halfling, etc., deities. But yes, you should
      also be able to take a, for example, dragon, and be able to advance
      it racially and as an outisder if you want.

      Paul W. King
      OGL SB, PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, TM lemur, BoD
    • Chris
      ... Well that s not right (IMO)... it says you have to be an Outsider already. Get rid of the PRETYPE and add TYPE:Outsider and it should allow you to take the
      Message 2 of 24 , May 27, 2004
        > There is an Outsider template in 5.7.1. This is what
        > rsrd_template_types.lst has to say about it:
        >
        > Outsider
        > VISIBLE:YES
        > SOURCEPAGE:TypesSubtypesAbilities.rtf
        > SA:Outsiders' souls and bodies are one unit so cannot be restored to
        > life by spells that restore souls to a body (requires a different
        > effect such as a Wish or True Resurrection)|!PRETEMPLATE:Native
        > SA:Outsiders breathe but do not sleep/eat (though they can if they
        > wish)|!PRETEMPLATE:Native
        > SA:Native outsiders eat/sleep/breathe|PRETEMPLATE:Native
        > PRETYPE:Outsider
        > VISION:Darkvision (60')


        Well that's not right (IMO)... it says you have to be an Outsider
        already.

        Get rid of the PRETYPE and add TYPE:Outsider and it should allow you to
        take the outsider levels then.
      • Chris
        ... Err, there is no Outsider race... are you sure you don t mean PRETEMPLATE??? Barak
        Message 3 of 24 , May 27, 2004
          > The problem is that the Outsider class requires PRERACE:Outsider, so
          > the template needs to change the race to Outsider :) But then it can
          > nolonger increase as the original race type.

          Err, there is no "Outsider" race... are you sure you don't mean
          PRETEMPLATE???

          Barak
        • Paul W. King
          ... Got rid of the PRETYPE and just made it TYPE (should this be reported as a Bug?). Now I can attempt to add an Outsider HD to my CG Elf (5.7.1, 35e, RSRD
          Message 4 of 24 , May 27, 2004
            > Well that's not right (IMO)... it says you have to be an Outsider
            > already.
            >
            > Get rid of the PRETYPE and add TYPE:Outsider and it should allow
            > you to take the outsider levels then.

            Got rid of the PRETYPE and just made it TYPE (should this be reported
            as a Bug?). Now I can attempt to add an Outsider HD to my CG Elf
            (5.7.1, 35e, RSRD only), but I get the following error:

            "Cannot increase Monster Hit Dice for this character beyond 0. This
            character's current number of Monster Hit Dice is 0."

            I looked through the Elf entry in rsrd_races__base.lst, but didn't
            see anything that wouldn't allow me to add the Outsider HD. What am
            I missing?

            Paul W. King
            OGL SB, PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, TM Lemur, BoD
          • Chris
            ... Check out the class type for the Outsider class... I bet is says monster instead of PC. *sigh* Nothing is ever simple. :p IIRC, monster classes are used
            Message 5 of 24 , May 27, 2004
              > > Well that's not right (IMO)... it says you have to be an Outsider
              > > already.
              > >
              > > Get rid of the PRETYPE and add TYPE:Outsider and it should allow
              > > you to take the outsider levels then.
              >
              > Got rid of the PRETYPE and just made it TYPE (should this be reported
              > as a Bug?). Now I can attempt to add an Outsider HD to my CG Elf
              > (5.7.1, 35e, RSRD only), but I get the following error:
              >
              > "Cannot increase Monster Hit Dice for this character beyond 0. This
              > character's current number of Monster Hit Dice is 0."
              >
              > I looked through the Elf entry in rsrd_races__base.lst, but didn't
              > see anything that wouldn't allow me to add the Outsider HD. What am
              > I missing?

              Check out the class type for the Outsider class... I bet is says
              monster instead of PC. *sigh* Nothing is ever simple. :p

              IIRC, monster classes are used in conjunction with the MONSTERCLASS:
              tag. Change it to a PC class and it should do what you want.

              Barak
            • Paul Grosse
              ... It s probably because all the PC races advance per Character Class and not race HD. This might have to be changed to make this work fully. GRRRRRRR, and
              Message 6 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                > > Well that's not right (IMO)... it says you have to be an Outsider
                > > already.
                > >
                > > Get rid of the PRETYPE and add TYPE:Outsider and it should
                > allow you
                > > to take the outsider levels then.
                >
                > Got rid of the PRETYPE and just made it TYPE (should this be
                > reported as a Bug?). Now I can attempt to add an Outsider HD
                > to my CG Elf (5.7.1, 35e, RSRD only), but I get the following error:
                >
                > "Cannot increase Monster Hit Dice for this character beyond
                > 0. This character's current number of Monster Hit Dice is 0."
                >
                > I looked through the Elf entry in rsrd_races__base.lst, but
                > didn't see anything that wouldn't allow me to add the
                > Outsider HD. What am I missing?
                >
                > Paul W. King
                > OGL SB, PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, TM Lemur, BoD
                >

                It's probably because all the PC races advance per "Character Class" and
                not race HD. This might have to be changed to make this work fully.

                GRRRRRRR, and I just found out something, not all outsiders have d8 HD
                either, some advance HD as per the base race type (ex. Abyssal Greater
                Basilisk)

                <quote from MonstersB-C.rtf>
                Basilisk
                Medium Magical Beast
                6d10+12 (45 hp)

                Abyssal Greater Basilisk
                Large Outsider (Augmented Magical Beast, Extraplanar)
                18d10+90 (189 hp)
                </quote>

                So it's not like the undead templates where the race HD changes to D12,
                or the designers weren't paying attention. Like that could happen :) So
                how can we say "HD per racial HD or d8"?

                Paul G.
              • Paul W. King
                ... It does. ... Yep, changing monster to PC, and I was able to add Outsider HD to my Elf...and without having to add the Outsider template. So, how should the
                Message 7 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                  > Check out the class type for the Outsider class... I bet is says
                  > monster instead of PC. *sigh* Nothing is ever simple. :p

                  It does.

                  > IIRC, monster classes are used in conjunction with the
                  > MONSTERCLASS: tag. Change it to a PC class and it should do what
                  > you want.

                  Yep, changing monster to PC, and I was able to add Outsider HD to my
                  Elf...and without having to add the Outsider template.

                  So, how should the FREQ/BUG requests look?

                  Paul W. King
                  OGL SB, PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, TM Lemur, BoD
                • Chris
                  ... That I don t know. You should probably discuss it with Doug and/or Tir and see what the best thing to do is in that regard is. I m sure there are
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                    > Yep, changing monster to PC, and I was able to add Outsider HD to my
                    > Elf...and without having to add the Outsider template.
                    >
                    > So, how should the FREQ/BUG requests look?

                    That I don't know. You should probably discuss it with Doug and/or Tir
                    and see what the best thing to do is in that regard is.

                    I'm sure there are ramifications to changing the class from a monster
                    to a PC class that I haven't thought of (I mean, c'mon, I am at work
                    here... :p)

                    Barak
                  • rthornton13
                    ... my ... Tir ... monster ... work ... What about changing the simple PRERACETYPE:Outsider to a PREMULT:1,
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                      --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
                      > > Yep, changing monster to PC, and I was able to add Outsider HD to
                      my
                      > > Elf...and without having to add the Outsider template.
                      > >
                      > > So, how should the FREQ/BUG requests look?
                      >
                      > That I don't know. You should probably discuss it with Doug and/or
                      Tir
                      > and see what the best thing to do is in that regard is.
                      >
                      > I'm sure there are ramifications to changing the class from a
                      monster
                      > to a PC class that I haven't thought of (I mean, c'mon, I am at
                      work
                      > here... :p)
                      >
                      > Barak

                      What about changing the simple PRERACETYPE:Outsider to a PREMULT:1,
                      [PRERACETYPE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Native]

                      Reed
                      QA Chimp
                    • Chris
                      ... But that doesn t solve the problem of a class with the monster type not being granted to a PC. Barak
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                        > What about changing the simple PRERACETYPE:Outsider to a PREMULT:1,
                        > [PRERACETYPE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Native]

                        But that doesn't solve the problem of a class with the monster type not
                        being granted to a PC.

                        Barak
                      • Paul W. King
                        ... Tir and/or Doug, Any thoughts?
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                          >> Yep, changing monster to PC, and I was able to add Outsider HD to
                          >> my Elf...and without having to add the Outsider template.
                          >>
                          >> So, how should the FREQ/BUG requests look?
                          >
                          > That I don't know. You should probably discuss it with Doug and/or
                          > Tir and see what the best thing to do is in that regard is.
                          >
                          > I'm sure there are ramifications to changing the class from a
                          > monster to a PC class that I haven't thought of (I mean, c'mon, I
                          > am at work here... :p)

                          Tir and/or Doug,

                          Any thoughts?
                        • rthornton13
                          ... PREMULT:1, ... not ... Why wouldn t it? The PRERACETYPE is the only PRE tag for the outsider class. Or are you saying that PC s shouldn t have the outsider
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
                            > > What about changing the simple PRERACETYPE:Outsider to a
                            PREMULT:1,
                            > > [PRERACETYPE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Native]
                            >
                            > But that doesn't solve the problem of a class with the monster type
                            not
                            > being granted to a PC.
                            >
                            > Barak

                            Why wouldn't it? The PRERACETYPE is the only PRE tag for the outsider
                            class. Or are you saying that PC's shouldn't have the outsider class?
                            Or that the normal PC races advance as character class?

                            Reed
                            QA Chimp
                          • Paul Grosse
                            ... Normal PC races advance per class, unless you are my DM which allows non-standard races to advance in their races similer to the Savage Species book :)
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 27, 2004
                              > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
                              > > > What about changing the simple PRERACETYPE:Outsider to a
                              > PREMULT:1,
                              > > > [PRERACETYPE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Native]
                              > >
                              > > But that doesn't solve the problem of a class with the monster type
                              > not
                              > > being granted to a PC.
                              > >
                              > > Barak
                              >
                              > Why wouldn't it? The PRERACETYPE is the only PRE tag for the
                              > outsider class. Or are you saying that PC's shouldn't have
                              > the outsider class?
                              > Or that the normal PC races advance as character class?
                              >
                              > Reed
                              > QA Chimp
                              >

                              "Normal" PC races advance per class, unless you are my DM which allows
                              non-standard races to advance in their races similer to the Savage
                              Species book :)

                              Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
                              PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
                              ICQ: 14397299
                              AO: Nylan
                              Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

                              "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to
                              keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein
                            • rthornton13
                              ... [PRETEMPLATE:Native] ... type ... allows ... race to ... But to me, that begs the question as to whether a normal PC that has acquired one of the
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 28, 2004
                                --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse"
                                <paul.grosse@m...> wrote:
                                > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...>
                                wrote:
                                > > > > What about changing the simple PRERACETYPE:Outsider to a
                                > > PREMULT:1,
                                > > > > [PRERACETYPE:Outsider],[PRETEMPLATE:Outsider],
                                [PRETEMPLATE:Native]
                                > > >
                                > > > But that doesn't solve the problem of a class with the monster
                                type
                                > > not
                                > > > being granted to a PC.
                                > > >
                                > > > Barak
                                > >
                                > > Why wouldn't it? The PRERACETYPE is the only PRE tag for the
                                > > outsider class. Or are you saying that PC's shouldn't have
                                > > the outsider class?
                                > > Or that the normal PC races advance as character class?
                                > >
                                > > Reed
                                > > QA Chimp
                                > >
                                >
                                > "Normal" PC races advance per class, unless you are my DM which
                                allows
                                > non-standard races to advance in their races similer to the Savage
                                > Species book :)
                                >
                                > Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
                                > PCGen OGL Chimp & LST Lemur-in-training
                                > ICQ: 14397299
                                > AO: Nylan
                                > Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)
                                >
                                > "The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human
                                race to
                                > keep all it's eggs in." - Robert Heinlein

                                But to me, that begs the question as to whether a "normal" PC that
                                has acquired one of the outsider templates is really "normal" now. I
                                think that some of this has to be left to the DM to adjudicate. I
                                wouldn't allow something like a
                                Bbn2/Clr2/Drd2/Ftr3/Mnk3/Rgr3/Rog2/Sor2/Wiz2. I would probably laugh
                                till I cried, thank them for the good joke and tell them to go roll a
                                real character. Other Dm's would be going "Wow!! That's so cool!!".
                                To each his own.

                                Reed
                                QA Chimp
                              • Paul W. King
                                ... What I m trying to get at though, is how to give Outsider HD to standard PC races so that they can become deities. So, no, I wouldn t consider a deity a
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 28, 2004
                                  > But to me, that begs the question as to whether a "normal" PC that
                                  > has acquired one of the outsider templates is really "normal" now.

                                  What I'm trying to get at though, is how to give Outsider HD to
                                  standard PC races so that they can become deities. So, no, I
                                  wouldn't consider a deity a 'normal' PC, but they started out as
                                  a 'normal' PC race.

                                  Paul W. King
                                  OGL SB, PL Chimp, Data Tamarin, TM Lemur, BoD
                                • Chris
                                  ... I was speaking from the PCGen the program standpoint. :) It is (apparently) coded to not grant a class designated as a monster type (which is how the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 28, 2004
                                    > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse"
                                    > > Why wouldn't it? The PRERACETYPE is the only PRE tag for the
                                    > > outsider class. Or are you saying that PC's shouldn't have
                                    > > the outsider class?

                                    I was speaking from the "PCGen the program" standpoint. :)

                                    It is (apparently) coded to not grant a class designated as a "monster"
                                    type (which is how the Outsider class is coded right now) to a race/PC
                                    that does not have "monster" HD. So your suggestion of just changing
                                    the PRE won't work, because even if there were no PRExxx on the class,
                                    it wouldn't grant it to a standard PC (or any race that doesn't have
                                    some sort of "monster" HD).

                                    So that leaves you with changing the class type to PC (which could
                                    possibly cause other problems with default monsters).

                                    Barak
                                  • rthornton13
                                    ... a monster ... race/PC ... changing ... class, ... have ... This is probably approaching the point that we should move this to experimental ;). what about
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 29, 2004
                                      --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <barak@v...> wrote:
                                      > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Grosse"
                                      > > > Why wouldn't it? The PRERACETYPE is the only PRE tag for the
                                      > > > outsider class. Or are you saying that PC's shouldn't have
                                      > > > the outsider class?
                                      >
                                      > I was speaking from the "PCGen the program" standpoint. :)
                                      >
                                      > It is (apparently) coded to not grant a class designated as
                                      a "monster"
                                      > type (which is how the Outsider class is coded right now) to a
                                      race/PC
                                      > that does not have "monster" HD. So your suggestion of just
                                      changing
                                      > the PRE won't work, because even if there were no PRExxx on the
                                      class,
                                      > it wouldn't grant it to a standard PC (or any race that doesn't
                                      have
                                      > some sort of "monster" HD).
                                      >
                                      > So that leaves you with changing the class type to PC (which could
                                      > possibly cause other problems with default monsters).
                                      >
                                      > Barak

                                      This is probably approaching the point that we should move this to
                                      experimental ;).

                                      what about having the outsider templates add TYPE:Monster.Outsider?
                                      Would that allow a PC to take the outsider class?

                                      It seems to me that one problem that we are running up against
                                      currently is a massive proliferation of types... with many different
                                      rules for interaction. We have the DnD type and subtypes (Good,
                                      Vermin, Undead, etc), feat types (General, Fighter, Racial, etc),
                                      magic types (Arcane, Divine), and so on... these are not strictly
                                      followed even by WotC. Then we have the PCGen types which try to
                                      cover all of the above plus more (but not always even as completely
                                      as WotC). Types that *have* to go with other types, *should* go with
                                      others, *can not* go with others...

                                      I love the complexity even as I curse it and despair of everything
                                      working out comletely. Maybe we should all demand that WotC hire the
                                      services of a compiler team to convert everything into BNF notation
                                      for 4th edition. If they got started now it might be ready in about
                                      8 years :)

                                      Reed
                                      QA Chimp
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