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Re: [PCGenListFileHelp] Re: choser to select FEAT or ABILITY?

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  • Andrew
    Hi, ... That s cause the ABILITYPOOL has nothing to do with it. The list or Type is set up by ABILITYCATEGORY. Using either TYPE:SpellLike or
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 19, 2013
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      Hi,



      On 2/19/2013 1:46 AM, rogerwllco wrote:
      > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
      >> Hi,
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On 2/18/2013 7:09 AM, rogerwllco wrote:
      >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
      >>>> Hi,
      >>>>
      >>>> I would advise against moving those feats to abilities until the CHOOSE:ABILITY is set up to handle
      >>>> things properly. Currently, you can only get the names back, but if you need to apply the choice in
      >>>> a meaningful way, that isn't possible currently.
      >>>>
      >>> Ah. BONUS:ABILITYPOOL isn't flexible enough? It will allow you to select from a TYPE of ability, but not a list, is that correct?
      >> Incorrect.
      >>
      >> You can do by TYPE, or by a List you make, or both.
      >>
      > That's not clear from the documentation then. It only mentions category:
      >
      > Tag Name: BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|x|y
      >
      > Variables Used (x): Text (Ability Category)
      >
      > Variables Used (y): Number (Amount added to pool)

      That's cause the ABILITYPOOL has nothing to do with it. The list or Type is set up by
      ABILITYCATEGORY. Using either TYPE:SpellLike or TYPE:RaceItemsIWant and then the static list
      ABILITYLIST:This Item is Nice|And This Item as well

      You can combine them so you can get a list of all TYPE 'GroupA' and a select list to include
      'IndividualB1', 'IndividualB2'


      >
      >>> It's how I coded the Fey'ri's abilities as per your suggestion in an earlier thread.
      >>>
      >>> So currently there is no way to code something like Empower Spell-Like Ability in a way that catches both feats and abilities with TYPE=SpellLike? I can't convert all abilities to feats or the other way around either.
      >>>
      >>> Any suggestions?
      >> Feats are feats, there shouldn't be any SpellLike feat if you've converted the actual abilities all
      >> to Abilities.
      >>
      > In my current CMP datasets there are no abilities, except the ones I coded myself. Everything is coded as either a FEAT or SAB. I was considering converting all (Ex), (Sp) and (Su) entries to abilities because currently things like Empower Spell-Like Ability just don't work properly.
      >
      > I also want to make a python script to automatically generate templates for Alter Self/Wild Shape/Polymorph/Shapechange/Enhanced Wild Shape/Draconic Polymorph/etc.
      > For that I need abilities to be coded in a uniform way across all datasets.
      >
      >> CHOOSE:ABILITY|Special Ability|TYPE=SpellLike should work
      >>
      >> But if you were looking for a method to Select an Ability and then Apply it, then Choose cannot do
      >> that today. However, using ABILITYPOOL would solve that issue.
      >>
      > Ok. So something like CHOOSE:ABILITYPOOL|Breath Weapon,Gaze Attack,Bardic Music|1 should work? Even if those are only abilities and not ability categories?

      No. CHOOSE:ABILITY|Special Ability|Breath Weapon|Gaze Attack|Bardic Music
      That would return those three Abilities as long as they are indeed abilities.

      There is no CHOOSE:ABILITYPOOL


      >
      >>>> AbilityCategories are set up, by our standards, in the Source Book that first introduces them to us,
      >>>> or if it's used in more than one source, the core book for that group.
      >>> So for DnD 3.5 that would be the PHB I suppose.
      >> Correct, that is where we do it today, only you would call it rsrd/basic. ;)
      > I'm not talking about the rsrd. I'm talking about DnD 3.5 so I do mean the PHB dataset. phb_d20_fantasy_v35e to be exact.
      > I'm not going to make my datasets dependent on the rsrd, as it's contents is subtly different from the DnD 3.5 Core books, in spell names but more importantly, it doesn't have the errata.

      I was making the tie in as a generic example of how it works. Not saying to make it tied to our
      RSRD. I understand you meant the PHB. Our PHB in the RSRD is RSRD/Basic. So if you wanted to see how
      the ability categories are set up, that is where you could look for a comparison.

      >
      >>>> ABILITYCATEGORY:Main Ability <> CATEGORY:Main Ability
      >>>>
      >>>> The names match - this is a parent/master ability.
      >>>>
      >>>> I'm starting to think pushing for
      >>>>
      >>>> ABILITYPOOL or ABILITYGROUP might have made a little more sense for the child groups. But as it stands:
      >>>>
      >>>> ABILITYCATEGORY:Second Ability <> CATEGORY:Main Ability
      >>>>
      >>>> Makes a new Group called Second Ability and it's part of the Main Ability grouping.
      >>>>
      >>> Thanks for explaining.
      >> It takes a little getting used to. But once you understand the basics, it's not really all that
      >> hard. Now, here is an important reminder:
      >>
      >> If you want the OS sheets to work for your converted game files, then you have to use the PCGen TYPE
      >> and CATEGORY conentions.
      >>
      > Yes, I want to convert the CMP datasets to work with the much nicer PCGen OS. I don't want to have to maintain the CMP OS too.
      >
      >> Namely all Special Attacks and Special Qualities need to be CATEGORY:Special Ability, and include
      >> the TYPE:SpecialQuality or SpecialAttack.
      >>
      >> Mind you, that's only if you convert to abilities. If you leave them as hidden Feats, then the SAB
      >> tag will work.
      >>
      > In a lot of cases they're not even hidden feats in the current datasets, but SAB entries directly in the RACE line. Therefore they have no TYPE and can't be used in a lot of things. (Sp) abilities don't show up as spells, something like SAB: Elven blood doesn't allow you to qualify for an Elf-only PrC. Things like that.
      > I've fixed some of those over the years of using the datasets, but I think I'll need to move everything to ABILITY that isn't a FEAT.
      >
      > Thanks for the clarifications,

      You're welcome.

      >
      > Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco
      >
      >>>> Cheers,
      >>>>
      >>>> On 2/17/2013 9:30 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
      >>>>> Hello again! :-)
      >>>>>
      >>>>> rogerwllco wrote:
      >>>>>> Eric C Smith wrote:
      >>>>>>> Greetings!
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> rogerwllco wrote:
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> Ugh, sounds like a lot of work, maybe I can write a script for it.
      >>>>>>>> I'm reading that guide and I have two questions:
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> =============================================================
      >>>>>>>> CATEGORY:Special Ability
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> This is a 'super-category', or parent, to which our new ability category belongs. This tag is optional but if included must list an existing ability category that has been defined in either the miscinfo.lst or miscinfo.lst file.
      >>>>>>>> =============================================================
      >>>>>>>> I'm not sure I understand what it says here. Do I need to add a line to miscinfo.lst which defines Special Ability in some way?
      >>>>>>> If you were creating a new Super Category you would, or even a new child category, but you would add it to an abilitycategory.lst file in your set. (All the classes need to be updated to the latest standard but there is still a lot of good info in there. We'll get that update done in the next few months.)
      >>>>>> I'm not sure if that answers my question: Do I need to define Special Ability in miscinfo.lst, or has PCGen it hardcoded to always exist?
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> Or should it go into the phb or dmg dataset?
      >>>>> Looking at it you are correct. I didn't answer your question, at least not well enough to clarify the issue.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Assuming you are using the CMP gameMode files, you can add the abilitycategory.lst file to the phb set. Take a look at the RSRD's file to get an example of how that is done.
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>>>> =============================================================
      >>>>>>>> TYPE:Special
      >>>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> This is a TYPE, or list of types, assigned to abilities of this catgory. While some types do not have an effect other than allowing additional filtering in the GUI, as is the case with the type Special, there are a number of standard ability types used within PCGen that effect PCGen in different ways. SpecialQuality and SpecialAttack are used to determine where on the Output Sheet the associated abilities will be placed. FavoredEnemy, RogueAbilities, and General effect which sub-tab the associated abilities will appear on in the PCGen GUI.
      >>>>>>> The current LST Code base uses TYPE:SpellLike for Spell Like abilities. All this does is add (Sp) to the end of the name when it outputs it to the Character Sheet. You will want to include either SpecialQuality or SpecialAttack along with SpellLike to ensure the ability shows up on the OS.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> A complete list of standard feat and ability types can be found on the Global TYPE page.
      >>>>>>>> =============================================================
      >>>>>>>> Are the TYPEs as mentioned on the Global TYPE page just conventions to make sure things work with the output sheets, or need these also be defined in miscinfo.lst or elsewhere?
      >>>>>>> The Global types listed are those used by the PCGen LST files so yes, they are just conventions used to make the GUI and OS work better. These are generally defined for you in either the miscinfo.lst file or in the abilitycategory.lst file in the standard distributed data sets.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>>> The CMP datasets use SpecialQual not SpecialQuality. Do I need to change that to make things work?
      >>>>>>> If you are using the CMP core books instead of PCGen's RSRD set, you should follow the conventions used in the CMP files, so you should use SpecialQual.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> On the otherhand, moving everything over to the PCGen standard, opens up all the sets PCGen currently distributes.
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> That of course, is up to you. :-)
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>>> Maredudd
      >>>>>>>
      >>>>>> I usually use the OGL output sheets, as the ones from CMP are really old and I don't want to struggle with OS formatting in addition to all the LST work. The standard OS are much nicer as the one from CMP only mimics the one in the standard PHB.
      >>>>>>
      >>>>>> So I want to ask it this way: To use the GLOBAL Types in abilities, do I need to define them as ability categories and if so, where should I do that? In the miscinfo.lst or phb or dmg dataset?
      >>>>> Oops! I misspoke. Good thing I have coffee now! :-)
      >>>>>
      >>>>> The global types are not "defined" as the ability categories are. You can use them as part of an ability category defiition, with the TYPE:x tag, or you an create them on the fly. I do not believe SpecialQuality, SpecialAttack, or SpellLike are "defined" anywhere save for on the fly when an ability is coded up in the ability.lst file.
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>> P.S. I find the name class slightly confusing as I usually think of a class in programming terms, like a class of objects, not a guide or course or manual.
      >>>>> Yeah, I understand that issue. LST File Class is a legacy name for them that can changed in a future revamping of the PCGen Docs, which will happen one day . . .
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Maredudd
      >>>>> Doc 2nd . . . :-)
      >>>>>
      >>>>> ------------------------------------
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>> --
      >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
      >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >> --
      >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
      >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >

      --
      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • FerretDave
      Greetings, ... ! That s worth noting... do you have notes on which *mechanics* are actually changed, that could be applied to the RSRD? Would we have
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 20, 2013
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        Greetings,

        > but more importantly, it doesn't have the errata.
        >
        ! That's worth noting... do you have notes on which *mechanics* are actually changed, that could be applied to the RSRD?

        Would we have permission to include Errata updates into the RSRD?

        Cheers
        Dave
      • Andrew
        Hi, The RSRD is unchanged, un-updated and Wizards has declined to put any errata updates in the RSRD. So, the RSRD is pretty much static and unchanged. All the
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 20, 2013
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          Hi,

          The RSRD is unchanged, un-updated and Wizards has declined to put any errata updates in the RSRD.
          So, the RSRD is pretty much static and unchanged. All the changes you're seeing in it are putting in
          what we should have included years ago. Full Spell Descriptions, full feat descriptions, full
          individualized abilities for each creature and class.

          The common consolidation was fine, but very limiting.

          You are free to put errata updates into your personal copy. However, unless the BoD decides to
          change policy and stance, the Release version of the RSRD set will adhere to the RSRD as put out by
          Wizards.

          On 2/20/2013 1:50 AM, FerretDave wrote:
          > Greetings,
          >
          >> but more importantly, it doesn't have the errata.
          >>
          > ! That's worth noting... do you have notes on which *mechanics* are actually changed, that could be applied to the RSRD?
          >
          > Would we have permission to include Errata updates into the RSRD?
          >
          > Cheers
          > Dave
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rogerwllco
          Ok, I think I get it now. I kind of made BONUS:ABILITYPOOL to be CHOOSE:ABILITYPOOL in my head as it does give a choice like mechanic. But BONUS:ABILITYPOOL
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 20, 2013
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            Ok, I think I get it now.

            I kind of made BONUS:ABILITYPOOL to be CHOOSE:ABILITYPOOL in my head as it does give a choice like mechanic. But BONUS:ABILITYPOOL will only give you new abilities not alter ones you already have.

            Am I correct that what you're trying to tell me, is that CHOOSE:ABILITY can't do that at the moment either so it can't be combined with something like BONUS:DC|%LIST|2 or BONUS:DAMAGE|%LIST|2 as things like DC and DAMAGE aren't properties of the ABILITY itself of of the things the ability grants?

            But CHOOSE:FEAT using hidden feats would have the same problem, right?

            So currently there is no good way to do something like
            BONUS:DC|%LIST|2 CHOOSE:ABILITY|FooBarBlast choice or
            BONUS:DC|%LIST|2 CHOOSE:ABILITY|TYPE=FooBarBlast or
            BONUS:DC|%LIST|2 CHOOSE:FEAT|TYPE=FooBarBlast

            for a hypotetical feat like Improved FooBarBlast DESC:Your FooBarBlast %1 now has a 2 higher DC|%CHOICE

            And then for CHOOSE:ABILITY you either need an ABILITYCATEGORY "FooBarBlast choice" which can be an ABILITYLIST or have TYPE=FooBarBlast but then all abilities available for FooBarBlast need to have TYPE=FooBarBlast.

            Cheers,

            Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco
          • FerretDave
            Good old wizards eh? :-) Thanks Drew, now to review errata and update my homebrew.
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 21, 2013
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              Good old wizards eh? :-)
              Thanks Drew, now to review errata and update my homebrew.

              --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi,
              >
              > The RSRD is unchanged, un-updated and Wizards has declined to put any errata updates in the RSRD.
              > So, the RSRD is pretty much static and unchanged. All the changes you're seeing in it are putting in
              > what we should have included years ago. Full Spell Descriptions, full feat descriptions, full
              > individualized abilities for each creature and class.
              >
              > The common consolidation was fine, but very limiting.
              >
              > You are free to put errata updates into your personal copy. However, unless the BoD decides to
              > change policy and stance, the Release version of the RSRD set will adhere to the RSRD as put out by
              > Wizards.
              >
              > On 2/20/2013 1:50 AM, FerretDave wrote:
              > > Greetings,
              > >
              > >> but more importantly, it doesn't have the errata.
              > >>
              > > ! That's worth noting... do you have notes on which *mechanics* are actually changed, that could be applied to the RSRD?
              > >
              > > Would we have permission to include Errata updates into the RSRD?
              > >
              > > Cheers
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > --
              > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Andrew Wilson
              ... I have no idea why anyone still gives them money. I know I don t. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 21, 2013
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                On 21 February 2013 09:20, FerretDave <ferret.griffin@...> wrote:

                > Good old wizards eh? :-)
                >

                I have no idea why anyone still gives them money. I know I don't.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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