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CHOOSE:FEAT=xxxx, documentation not updated?

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  • rogerwllco
    When I m converting my Player Handbook dataset from 5.16 to 6.00.0, I get a popup-window asking me to fix feats like Greater Weapon Focus. They are currently
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 10, 2013
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      When I'm converting my Player Handbook dataset from 5.16 to 6.00.0, I get a popup-window asking me to fix feats like Greater Weapon Focus.

      They are currently coded like: CHOOSE:FEAT=Weapon Focus, which is correct according to the documentation:
      http://www.pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/listfilepages/globalfilestagpages/globalfileschoose.html#FEAT

      The batch-converter tries to change it to a syntax like this:
      CHOOSE:WEAPONPROFICIENCY|FEAT=Weapon Focus

      Apparently this syntax was added in 5.17.4, according to the documentation.

      Is the CHOOSE:FEAT= syntax no longer valid, but the documentation not updated?

      What's going on?

      Cheers,

      Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco
    • Andrew
      Hi Adriaan, Yes, indeed, the underlying code and the reasoning behind this are well necessary (And Tom is much more qualified to explain it). However, it boils
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 10, 2013
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        Hi Adriaan,

        Yes, indeed, the underlying code and the reasoning behind this are well necessary (And Tom is much
        more qualified to explain it). However, it boils down to you need to have what the CHOICE of the
        previous feat was looking for.

        In the Case of Weapon Focus - It's base CHOOSER is WEAPONPROFICIENCY. So when you have something
        looking at Weapon Focus to get a valid Selection, it needs to know that WEAPONPROFICIENCY was the
        CHOOSER and so it can give a Weapon Prof back.

        Like I said, Tom would be better at explaining the whole underlying process. The reason it asks, is
        it's not 'smart' enough to figure that out.

        Also, the docs are alway a release cycle behind. Since the Tag is still valid, and may be used, we
        need to leave the Documentation up for it. The Converter assumes you desire to use the
        non-deprecated tags and use the newer format which is more stable and reliable.

        Cheers,


        On 2/10/2013 3:36 PM, rogerwllco wrote:
        > When I'm converting my Player Handbook dataset from 5.16 to 6.00.0, I get a popup-window asking me to fix feats like Greater Weapon Focus.
        >
        > They are currently coded like: CHOOSE:FEAT=Weapon Focus, which is correct according to the documentation:
        > http://www.pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/listfilepages/globalfilestagpages/globalfileschoose.html#FEAT
        >
        > The batch-converter tries to change it to a syntax like this:
        > CHOOSE:WEAPONPROFICIENCY|FEAT=Weapon Focus
        >
        > Apparently this syntax was added in 5.17.4, according to the documentation.
        >
        > Is the CHOOSE:FEAT= syntax no longer valid, but the documentation not updated?
        >
        > What's going on?
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Andrew Wilson
        Also, if the converter is recommending a change then it s more than likely not going to be in the *next* stable release. ... [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 10, 2013
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          Also, if the converter is recommending a change then it's more than likely
          not going to be in the *next* stable release.


          On 10 February 2013 23:45, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:

          > Hi Adriaan,
          >
          > Yes, indeed, the underlying code and the reasoning behind this are well
          > necessary (And Tom is much
          > more qualified to explain it). However, it boils down to you need to have
          > what the CHOICE of the
          > previous feat was looking for.
          >
          > In the Case of Weapon Focus - It's base CHOOSER is WEAPONPROFICIENCY. So
          > when you have something
          > looking at Weapon Focus to get a valid Selection, it needs to know that
          > WEAPONPROFICIENCY was the
          > CHOOSER and so it can give a Weapon Prof back.
          >
          > Like I said, Tom would be better at explaining the whole underlying
          > process. The reason it asks, is
          > it's not 'smart' enough to figure that out.
          >
          > Also, the docs are alway a release cycle behind. Since the Tag is still
          > valid, and may be used, we
          > need to leave the Documentation up for it. The Converter assumes you
          > desire to use the
          > non-deprecated tags and use the newer format which is more stable and
          > reliable.
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          >
          > On 2/10/2013 3:36 PM, rogerwllco wrote:
          > > When I'm converting my Player Handbook dataset from 5.16 to 6.00.0, I
          > get a popup-window asking me to fix feats like Greater Weapon Focus.
          > >
          > > They are currently coded like: CHOOSE:FEAT=Weapon Focus, which is
          > correct according to the documentation:
          > >
          > http://www.pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/listfilepages/globalfilestagpages/globalfileschoose.html#FEAT
          > >
          > > The batch-converter tries to change it to a syntax like this:
          > > CHOOSE:WEAPONPROFICIENCY|FEAT=Weapon Focus
          > >
          > > Apparently this syntax was added in 5.17.4, according to the
          > documentation.
          > >
          > > Is the CHOOSE:FEAT= syntax no longer valid, but the documentation not
          > updated?
          > >
          > > What's going on?
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > >
          > > Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rogerwllco
          ... I figured something like that from the change that the converter was trying to make. ... The syntax isn t marked as deprecated in the documentation either.
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 10, 2013
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            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew wrote:
            >
            > Hi Adriaan,
            >
            > Yes, indeed, the underlying code and the reasoning behind this are well necessary (And Tom is much
            > more qualified to explain it). However, it boils down to you need to have what the CHOICE of the
            > previous feat was looking for.
            >
            > In the Case of Weapon Focus - It's base CHOOSER is WEAPONPROFICIENCY. So when you have something
            > looking at Weapon Focus to get a valid Selection, it needs to know that WEAPONPROFICIENCY was the
            > CHOOSER and so it can give a Weapon Prof back.
            >
            > Like I said, Tom would be better at explaining the whole underlying process. The reason it asks, is
            > it's not 'smart' enough to figure that out.
            >
            I figured something like that from the change that the converter was trying to make.

            > Also, the docs are alway a release cycle behind. Since the Tag is still valid, and may be used, we
            > need to leave the Documentation up for it. The Converter assumes you desire to use the
            > non-deprecated tags and use the newer format which is more stable and reliable.
            >
            The syntax isn't marked as deprecated in the documentation either. Or are you saying that the documentation is for 5.16, not 6.00? It does mention stuff from the 5.17 branch.

            Next to that the converter doesn't change the Weapon Focus feat to use the correct syntax for this to work, it only gives a warning for the use of CHOOSE:PROFICIENCY|WEAPON. So currently this actually breaks something instead of fixing it.

            As there is no log message, it's very hard to keep track of what happens and what changes, unless you write it down while running the converter.

            Finally, I usually change things in my source dataset, and then run the converter again, but that doesn't work here, as my source is from 5.16 and this was only added in 5.17. I didn't have this problem when converting from 5.14 to 5.16, as all changes that the converter needed were legal in 5.14.

            The converter isn't really helping here. It should either fix both Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus, or it should give a warning for both being deprecated syntax. This breaks things and makes it hard to track down what needs changing, unless you write your own log while running the converter.

            Cheers,

            Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco


            > Cheers,
            >
            >
            > On 2/10/2013 3:36 PM, rogerwllco wrote:
            > > When I'm converting my Player Handbook dataset from 5.16 to 6.00.0, I get a popup-window asking me to fix feats like Greater Weapon Focus.
            > >
            > > They are currently coded like: CHOOSE:FEAT=Weapon Focus, which is correct according to the documentation:
            > > http://www.pcgen-test.org/autobuilds/pcgen-docs/listfilepages/globalfilestagpages/globalfileschoose.html#FEAT
            > >
            > > The batch-converter tries to change it to a syntax like this:
            > > CHOOSE:WEAPONPROFICIENCY|FEAT=Weapon Focus
            > >
            > > Apparently this syntax was added in 5.17.4, according to the documentation.
            > >
            > > Is the CHOOSE:FEAT= syntax no longer valid, but the documentation not updated?
            > >
            > > What's going on?
            > >
            > > Cheers,
            > >
            > > Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • thpr
            So yes, the documentation does not correctly tag CHOOSE:FEAT= as being deprecated. We need to get that updated. It looks like you have also found a bug in the
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 10, 2013
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              So yes, the documentation does not correctly tag CHOOSE:FEAT= as being deprecated. We need to get that updated.

              It looks like you have also found a bug in the converter, though I'm unsure why that wasn't noticed as we converted our core datasets. Perhaps we were using a different CHOOSE in Martial Weapon Proficiency?

              We also make sure to convert away from deprecated tokens in any given release, because there is no guarantee that the converter in the next release will be able to read that deprecated token. We only can guarantee their processing for one major release as a deprecated token. So it's best to load without any deprecation errors before you try to move to a new version. (Having said this, the breakage of the converter or the live code not being able to "go back in time" sufficiently is rare, but the policy that we only HAVE TO support it for one release is pretty clear)

              The reason the converter needs to ask is that it is not saving information (nor looking up information) while it does a conversion. It only converts one token at a time... so it's not quite bright enough to "figure it out on its own". (Note that the live code in 6.0.0 CAN figure it out, but it has to do it in two passes - one loading the data to a temporary location saying "This was a CHOOSE:FEAT=" and then after that is complete, by looking up the target feat and figuring out what the CHOOSE was... Someday we will have a smarter converter, but we aren't there today.

              If someone really wants the explanation for why we the prefix is necessary, I can explain it, just want to make sure it's valuable effort.

              TP.
            • rogerwllco
              I understand that the converter is limited in scope and I have no problem with that. I think the details are better discussed in the other thread about the
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 10, 2013
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                I understand that the converter is limited in scope and I have no problem with that.

                I think the details are better discussed in the other thread about the converter in the general PCGen group.

                Cheers,

                Adriaan Renting/RogerWilco

                --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "thpr" wrote:
                >
                > So yes, the documentation does not correctly tag CHOOSE:FEAT= as being deprecated. We need to get that updated.
                >
                > It looks like you have also found a bug in the converter, though I'm unsure why that wasn't noticed as we converted our core datasets. Perhaps we were using a different CHOOSE in Martial Weapon Proficiency?
                >
                > We also make sure to convert away from deprecated tokens in any given release, because there is no guarantee that the converter in the next release will be able to read that deprecated token. We only can guarantee their processing for one major release as a deprecated token. So it's best to load without any deprecation errors before you try to move to a new version. (Having said this, the breakage of the converter or the live code not being able to "go back in time" sufficiently is rare, but the policy that we only HAVE TO support it for one release is pretty clear)
                >
                > The reason the converter needs to ask is that it is not saving information (nor looking up information) while it does a conversion. It only converts one token at a time... so it's not quite bright enough to "figure it out on its own". (Note that the live code in 6.0.0 CAN figure it out, but it has to do it in two passes - one loading the data to a temporary location saying "This was a CHOOSE:FEAT=" and then after that is complete, by looking up the target feat and figuring out what the CHOOSE was... Someday we will have a smarter converter, but we aren't there today.
                >
                > If someone really wants the explanation for why we the prefix is necessary, I can explain it, just want to make sure it's valuable effort.
                >
                > TP.
                >
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