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Clearing a class auto feat does not seem to work

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  • Richard Mead
    PCGen 5.16.2, MacOS 10.6.8 I am trying to create the .lst files to support the Pathfinder Fighter Archetype Unbreakable from the Ultimate Combat Guide. One
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 29, 2012
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      PCGen 5.16.2, MacOS 10.6.8

      I am trying to create the .lst files to support the Pathfinder Fighter Archetype "Unbreakable" from the Ultimate Combat Guide. One part of this is that the Unbreakable Fighters are not proficient with Tower Shields. Tower Shield Proficiency is an AUTO:FEAT in the Fighter class definition.

      I have gotten the archetype tab to show up in PCGen, and to list the new archetype. However, when I select it (moving it from the left to the right panel) it does not remove the Tower Shield Proficiency feat from the characters feat list...

      I tried using "AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency" in the line that defines the archetype. I have also tried using an ABILITY tag instead without effect. I have even tried including a "CLASS:Fighter.MOD" line in the file, since ".CLEAR." says that it must be used with ".MOD," but to no avail. Does that need to be in a class file?

      Here are the current set of lines in the abilities file I am using: (Note: "Tough as Nails" seems to work, although I have not yet added tags to remove the standard fighter ability "Bravery" yet)


      ###Block: Fighter archetypes
      Unbreakable KEY:Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable CATEGORY:Archetype TYPE:FighterArchetype PRECLASS:1,Fighter=1 PREMULT:1,[PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable],[PREMULT:2,[!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.FighterArchetype],[PRECLASSLEVELMAX:1,Fighter=1]] DESC:The unbreakable is a warrior of indomitable will, unstoppable and implacable once he has set his mind upon a course of action. The unbreakable endures any trial to do what must be done, and when his mind is set toward a goal, nothing can stop him from achieving it, though many may try. He is a juggernaut and a zealot, supremely confident in his own abilities. AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Tough as Nails|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Unflinching|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=2 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=5 COST:0 SOURCEPAGE:p.104


      ###Block: Unbreakable Fighter archetype hidden abilities
      Add Combat Feat KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Add Combat Feat CATEGORY:Internal VISIBLE:NO MULT:YES ADD:FEAT|TYPE=Combat

      ###Block: Unbreakable Fighter archetype abilities
      Tough as Nails KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Tough as Nails CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality DESC:An unbreakable gains Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats. This ability replaces the fighter's 1st-level bonus feat. AUTO:FEAT|Endurance|Diehard BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Fighter Bonus Feat|-1 SOURCEPAGE:p.??

      Unflinching KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Unflinching CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality.Extraordinary.SaveBonus DEFINE:Unflinching|0 DEFINE:UnflinchingLVL|0 DESC:At 2nd level, an unbreakable gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level). This ability replaces bravery. You currently gain a +%1 bonus to Will saves against fear effects.|Unflinching BONUS:VAR|Unflinching|max((UnflinchingLVL+2)/4,5) SOURCEPAGE:p.?? ASPECT:SaveBonus|+%1 Will vs. fear|Unflinching

      Heroic Recovery KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality.Extraordinary DESC:At 5th level, an unbreakable gains the Heroic Recovery feat as a bonus feat, if he does not have it already. If he already has this feat, the unbreakable can choose any combat feat instead. In addition, he may use this feat one additional time per day for every four levels after 5th (to a maximum of 4 times per day at 17th level). This ability replaces weapon training 1. ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Add Combat Feat|PREFEAT:1,Heroic Recovery AUTO:FEAT|Heroic Recovery BONUS:VAR|FighterWeaponTrainingLVL|-1 SOURCEPAGE:p.??


      CATEGORY=FEAT|Heroic Recovery.MOD PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery ASPECT:SaveBonus|%NAME %1 times per day|max(((FighterLVL-1)/4),4)

      CLASS:Fighter.MOD AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable
    • Andrew
      Hi Richard, I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it. Instead, your fix would be this: In the fighter class Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 29, 2012
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        Hi Richard,

        I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.

        Instead, your fix would be this:

        In the fighter class
        Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
        AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf

        In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
        delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff

        When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'

        Cheers,


        On 1/29/2012 9:55 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
        > PCGen 5.16.2, MacOS 10.6.8
        >
        > I am trying to create the .lst files to support the Pathfinder Fighter Archetype "Unbreakable" from the Ultimate Combat Guide. One part of this is that the Unbreakable Fighters are not proficient with Tower Shields. Tower Shield Proficiency is an AUTO:FEAT in the Fighter class definition.
        >
        > I have gotten the archetype tab to show up in PCGen, and to list the new archetype. However, when I select it (moving it from the left to the right panel) it does not remove the Tower Shield Proficiency feat from the characters feat list...
        >
        > I tried using "AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency" in the line that defines the archetype. I have also tried using an ABILITY tag instead without effect. I have even tried including a "CLASS:Fighter.MOD" line in the file, since ".CLEAR." says that it must be used with ".MOD," but to no avail. Does that need to be in a class file?
        >
        > Here are the current set of lines in the abilities file I am using: (Note: "Tough as Nails" seems to work, although I have not yet added tags to remove the standard fighter ability "Bravery" yet)
        >
        >
        > ###Block: Fighter archetypes
        > Unbreakable KEY:Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable CATEGORY:Archetype TYPE:FighterArchetype PRECLASS:1,Fighter=1 PREMULT:1,[PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable],[PREMULT:2,[!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.FighterArchetype],[PRECLASSLEVELMAX:1,Fighter=1]] DESC:The unbreakable is a warrior of indomitable will, unstoppable and implacable once he has set his mind upon a course of action. The unbreakable endures any trial to do what must be done, and when his mind is set toward a goal, nothing can stop him from achieving it, though many may try. He is a juggernaut and a zealot, supremely confident in his own abilities. AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Tough as Nails|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=1 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Unflinching|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=2 ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=5 COST:0 SOURCEPAGE:p.104
        >
        >
        > ###Block: Unbreakable Fighter archetype hidden abilities
        > Add Combat Feat KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Add Combat Feat CATEGORY:Internal VISIBLE:NO MULT:YES ADD:FEAT|TYPE=Combat
        >
        > ###Block: Unbreakable Fighter archetype abilities
        > Tough as Nails KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Tough as Nails CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality DESC:An unbreakable gains Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats. This ability replaces the fighter's 1st-level bonus feat. AUTO:FEAT|Endurance|Diehard BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Fighter Bonus Feat|-1 SOURCEPAGE:p.??
        >
        > Unflinching KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Unflinching CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality.Extraordinary.SaveBonus DEFINE:Unflinching|0 DEFINE:UnflinchingLVL|0 DESC:At 2nd level, an unbreakable gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level). This ability replaces bravery. You currently gain a +%1 bonus to Will saves against fear effects.|Unflinching BONUS:VAR|Unflinching|max((UnflinchingLVL+2)/4,5) SOURCEPAGE:p.?? ASPECT:SaveBonus|+%1 Will vs. fear|Unflinching
        >
        > Heroic Recovery KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality.Extraordinary DESC:At 5th level, an unbreakable gains the Heroic Recovery feat as a bonus feat, if he does not have it already. If he already has this feat, the unbreakable can choose any combat feat instead. In addition, he may use this feat one additional time per day for every four levels after 5th (to a maximum of 4 times per day at 17th level). This ability replaces weapon training 1. ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Add Combat Feat|PREFEAT:1,Heroic Recovery AUTO:FEAT|Heroic Recovery BONUS:VAR|FighterWeaponTrainingLVL|-1 SOURCEPAGE:p.??
        >
        >
        > CATEGORY=FEAT|Heroic Recovery.MOD PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special Ability,Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery ASPECT:SaveBonus|%NAME %1 times per day|max(((FighterLVL-1)/4),4)
        >
        > CLASS:Fighter.MOD AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
        Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
        Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
        Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
        Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Doug Limmer
        If you re worried about it playing well with other archetypes that lose Tower Shield Proficiency, you ll want to add a TYPE.TowerShieldProf to the !PREABILITY
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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          If you're worried about it playing well with other archetypes that lose
          Tower Shield Proficiency, you'll want to add a TYPE.TowerShieldProf to
          the !PREABILITY tag, too. [If you know you don't need to worry about
          that, then you don't need to bother, if it's just for yourself.]

          DS/DL

          On 1/30/2012 1:30 AM, Andrew wrote:
          >
          > Hi Richard,
          >
          > I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
          >
          > Instead, your fix would be this:
          >
          > In the fighter class
          > Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to
          > be standalone)
          > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield
          > Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
          >
          > In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List,
          > remember it's a period
          > delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
          >
          > When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield
          > Proficiency'
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > On 1/29/2012 9:55 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
          > > PCGen 5.16.2, MacOS 10.6.8
          > >
          > > I am trying to create the .lst files to support the Pathfinder
          > Fighter Archetype "Unbreakable" from the Ultimate Combat Guide. One
          > part of this is that the Unbreakable Fighters are not proficient with
          > Tower Shields. Tower Shield Proficiency is an AUTO:FEAT in the Fighter
          > class definition.
          > >
          > > I have gotten the archetype tab to show up in PCGen, and to list the
          > new archetype. However, when I select it (moving it from the left to
          > the right panel) it does not remove the Tower Shield Proficiency feat
          > from the characters feat list...
          > >
          > > I tried using "AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency" in the
          > line that defines the archetype. I have also tried using an ABILITY
          > tag instead without effect. I have even tried including a
          > "CLASS:Fighter.MOD" line in the file, since ".CLEAR." says that it
          > must be used with ".MOD," but to no avail. Does that need to be in a
          > class file?
          > >
          > > Here are the current set of lines in the abilities file I am using:
          > (Note: "Tough as Nails" seems to work, although I have not yet added
          > tags to remove the standard fighter ability "Bravery" yet)
          > >
          > >
          > > ###Block: Fighter archetypes
          > > Unbreakable KEY:Fighter Archetype ~ Unbreakable CATEGORY:Archetype
          > TYPE:FighterArchetype PRECLASS:1,Fighter=1
          > PREMULT:1,[PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,Fighter Archetype ~
          > Unbreakable],[PREMULT:2,[!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.FighterArchetype],[PRECLASSLEVELMAX:1,Fighter=1]]
          > DESC:The unbreakable is a warrior of indomitable will, unstoppable and
          > implacable once he has set his mind upon a course of action. The
          > unbreakable endures any trial to do what must be done, and when his
          > mind is set toward a goal, nothing can stop him from achieving it,
          > though many may try. He is a juggernaut and a zealot, supremely
          > confident in his own abilities. AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield
          > Proficiency ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~
          > Tough as Nails|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=1 ABILITY:Special
          > Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~
          > Unflinching|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=2 ABILITY:Special
          > Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic
          > Recovery|PRECLASS:1,Fighter=5 COS T:0 SOURCEPAGE:p.104
          > >
          > >
          > > ###Block: Unbreakable Fighter archetype hidden abilities
          > > Add Combat Feat KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Add Combat Feat
          > CATEGORY:Internal VISIBLE:NO MULT:YES ADD:FEAT|TYPE=Combat
          > >
          > > ###Block: Unbreakable Fighter archetype abilities
          > > Tough as Nails KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Tough as Nails
          > CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality DESC:An unbreakable gains
          > Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats. This ability replaces the
          > fighter's 1st-level bonus feat. AUTO:FEAT|Endurance|Diehard
          > BONUS:ABILITYPOOL|Fighter Bonus Feat|-1 SOURCEPAGE:p.??
          > >
          > > Unflinching KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Unflinching CATEGORY:Special
          > Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality.Extraordinary.SaveBonus
          > DEFINE:Unflinching|0 DEFINE:UnflinchingLVL|0 DESC:At 2nd level, an
          > unbreakable gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting
          > effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 2nd
          > level (to a maximum of +5 at 18th level). This ability replaces
          > bravery. You currently gain a +%1 bonus to Will saves against fear
          > effects.|Unflinching BONUS:VAR|Unflinching|max((UnflinchingLVL+2)/4,5)
          > SOURCEPAGE:p.?? ASPECT:SaveBonus|+%1 Will vs. fear|Unflinching
          > >
          > > Heroic Recovery KEY:Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery
          > CATEGORY:Special Ability TYPE:SpecialQuality.Extraordinary DESC:At 5th
          > level, an unbreakable gains the Heroic Recovery feat as a bonus feat,
          > if he does not have it already. If he already has this feat, the
          > unbreakable can choose any combat feat instead. In addition, he may
          > use this feat one additional time per day for every four levels after
          > 5th (to a maximum of 4 times per day at 17th level). This ability
          > replaces weapon training 1. ABILITY:Special Ability|AUTOMATIC|Fighter
          > Unbreakable ~ Add Combat Feat|PREFEAT:1,Heroic Recovery
          > AUTO:FEAT|Heroic Recovery BONUS:VAR|FighterWeaponTrainingLVL|-1
          > SOURCEPAGE:p.??
          > >
          > >
          > > CATEGORY=FEAT|Heroic Recovery.MOD PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Special
          > Ability,Fighter Unbreakable ~ Heroic Recovery ASPECT:SaveBonus|%NAME
          > %1 times per day|max(((FighterLVL-1)/4),4)
          > >
          > > CLASS:Fighter.MOD AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR.Tower Shield Proficiency
          > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield
          > Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,Fighter Archetype ~
          > Unbreakable
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > --
          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Richard Mead
          Thanks Andrew - that s a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations. However, are you saying that there is no way to
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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            Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.

            However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.


            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Richard,
            >
            > I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
            >
            > Instead, your fix would be this:
            >
            > In the fighter class
            > Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
            > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
            >
            > In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
            > delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
            >
            > When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            >

            [Previous post removed for brevity]

            >
            > --
            > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
            > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
            > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
            > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
            > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Richard Mead
            Thanks for the reply, although I am not clear how that is different from what Andrew suggested...? ... [Text of previous posting removed for brevity]
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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              Thanks for the reply, although I am not clear how that is different from what Andrew suggested...?

              --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer <adventure@...> wrote:
              >
              > If you're worried about it playing well with other archetypes that lose
              > Tower Shield Proficiency, you'll want to add a TYPE.TowerShieldProf to
              > the !PREABILITY tag, too. [If you know you don't need to worry about
              > that, then you don't need to bother, if it's just for yourself.]
              >
              > DS/DL
              >
              > On 1/30/2012 1:30 AM, Andrew wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Richard,
              > >
              > > I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
              > >
              > > Instead, your fix would be this:
              > >
              > > In the fighter class
              > > Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to
              > > be standalone)
              > > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield
              > > Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
              > >
              > > In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List,
              > > remember it's a period
              > > delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
              > >
              > > When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield
              > > Proficiency'
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > >

              [Text of previous posting removed for brevity]

              > >
              > > --
              > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
              > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
              > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
              > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
              > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Eric C Smith
              Hi Richard, This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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                Hi Richard,

                This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130

                Maredudd


                On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:

                > Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                >
                > However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                >
                > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Richard,
                > >
                > > I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                > >
                > > Instead, your fix would be this:
                > >
                > > In the fighter class
                > > Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                > > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                > >
                > > In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                > > delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                > >
                > > When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
              • adventure@mailworks.org
                It s in addition to what Andrew suggested. If you want two archetypes to be mutually exclusive when they both replace tower shield proficiency, you will want
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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                  It's in addition to what Andrew suggested. If you want two
                  archetypes to be mutually exclusive when they both replace tower
                  shield proficiency, you will want ",TYPE.TowerShieldProf" inside
                  the [!PREABILITY:...] tag, in addition to what's already there.
                  (Without the quotation marks, of course.)

                  If this is just for your own private use, and you don't plan on
                  trying to add two archetypes that both replace tower shield
                  proficiency, then it's not necessary.

                  DS/DL

                  On Mon, Jan 30, 2012, at 04:38 PM, Richard Mead wrote:


                  Thanks for the reply, although I am not clear how that is
                  different from what Andrew suggested...?
                  --- In [1]PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer
                  <adventure@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > If you're worried about it playing well with other archetypes
                  that lose
                  > Tower Shield Proficiency, you'll want to add a
                  TYPE.TowerShieldProf to
                  > the !PREABILITY tag, too. [If you know you don't need to worry
                  about
                  > that, then you don't need to bother, if it's just for
                  yourself.]
                  >
                  > DS/DL
                  >
                  > On 1/30/2012 1:30 AM, Andrew wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Richard,
                  > >
                  > > I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                  > >
                  > > Instead, your fix would be this:
                  > >
                  > > In the fighter class
                  > > Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in
                  question to
                  > > be standalone)
                  > > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield
                  > >
                  Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                  > >
                  > > In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your
                  TYPE List,
                  > > remember it's a period
                  > > delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                  > >
                  > > When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower
                  Shield
                  > > Proficiency'
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > >
                  [Text of previous posting removed for brevity]
                  > >
                  > > --
                  > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                  > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                  > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                  > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                  > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >



                  References

                  1. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp%40yahoogroups.com
                  2. mailto:richardmead@...?subject=Re%3A%20Clearing%20a%20class%20auto%20feat%20does%20not%20seem%20to%20work
                  3. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Clearing%20a%20class%20auto%20feat%20does%20not%20seem%20to%20work
                  4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNWE2MjQyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBG1zZ0lkAzIyMTE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNA--?act=reply&messageNum=22115
                  5. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTNjb2FhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNA--
                  6. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/message/22110;_ylc=X3oDMTM2a291NzhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBG1zZ0lkAzIyMTE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNAR0cGNJZAMyMjExMA--
                  7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMXM5bGNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NDE5MjQ-?o=6
                  8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTVwYXI4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNA--
                  9. http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaDBtM3JwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTQxOTI0
                  10. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional
                  11. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest
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                  13. http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Andrew
                  Hi Richard, As Eric pointed out; That s the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have working with our sets, that method I gave was
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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                    Hi Richard,

                    As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                    working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.

                    Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                    method is the sure fire method.

                    Cheers,

                    On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                    > Hi Richard,
                    >
                    > This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                    >
                    > Maredudd
                    >
                    >
                    > On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                    >
                    >> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                    >>
                    >> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                    >>
                    >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                    >>> Hi Richard,
                    >>>
                    >>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                    >>>
                    >>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                    >>>
                    >>> In the fighter class
                    >>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                    >>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                    >>>
                    >>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                    >>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                    >>>
                    >>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                    Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                    Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                    Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                    Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Richard Mead
                    LOL - actually that is exactly what Andrew suggested - which is why I was confused at how you were making it different... because it wasn t. :-) Many thnaks!
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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                      LOL - actually that is exactly what Andrew suggested - which is why I was confused at how you were making it different... because it wasn't. :-)

                      Many thnaks!


                      --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, adventure@... wrote:
                      >
                      > It's in addition to what Andrew suggested. If you want two
                      > archetypes to be mutually exclusive when they both replace tower
                      > shield proficiency, you will want ",TYPE.TowerShieldProf" inside
                      > the [!PREABILITY:...] tag, in addition to what's already there.
                      > (Without the quotation marks, of course.)
                      >
                      > If this is just for your own private use, and you don't plan on
                      > trying to add two archetypes that both replace tower shield
                      > proficiency, then it's not necessary.
                      >
                      > DS/DL
                      >
                      > On Mon, Jan 30, 2012, at 04:38 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for the reply, although I am not clear how that is
                      > different from what Andrew suggested...?
                      > --- In [1]PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Doug Limmer
                      > <adventure@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > If you're worried about it playing well with other archetypes
                      > that lose
                      > > Tower Shield Proficiency, you'll want to add a
                      > TYPE.TowerShieldProf to
                      > > the !PREABILITY tag, too. [If you know you don't need to worry
                      > about
                      > > that, then you don't need to bother, if it's just for
                      > yourself.]
                      > >
                      > > DS/DL
                      > >
                      > > On 1/30/2012 1:30 AM, Andrew wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Richard,
                      > > >
                      > > > I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                      > > >
                      > > > Instead, your fix would be this:
                      > > >
                      > > > In the fighter class
                      > > > Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in
                      > question to
                      > > > be standalone)
                      > > > AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield
                      > > >
                      > Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                      > > >
                      > > > In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your
                      > TYPE List,
                      > > > remember it's a period
                      > > > delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                      > > >
                      > > > When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower
                      > Shield
                      > > > Proficiency'
                      > > >
                      > > > Cheers,
                      > > >
                      > [Text of previous posting removed for brevity]
                      > > >
                      > > > --
                      > > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                      > > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                      > > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                      > > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                      > > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > References
                      >
                      > 1. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp%40yahoogroups.com
                      > 2. mailto:richardmead@...?subject=Re%3A%20Clearing%20a%20class%20auto%20feat%20does%20not%20seem%20to%20work
                      > 3. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Clearing%20a%20class%20auto%20feat%20does%20not%20seem%20to%20work
                      > 4. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNWE2MjQyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBG1zZ0lkAzIyMTE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNA--?act=reply&messageNum=22115
                      > 5. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTNjb2FhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNA--
                      > 6. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/message/22110;_ylc=X3oDMTM2a291NzhqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBG1zZ0lkAzIyMTE1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNAR0cGNJZAMyMjExMA--
                      > 7. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMXM5bGNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjc5NDE5MjQ-?o=6
                      > 8. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PCGenListFileHelp;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTVwYXI4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNzk0MTkyNA--
                      > 9. http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaDBtM3JwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzQ2NzQ4NDAEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA3MjgxOTQyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI3OTQxOTI0
                      > 10. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional
                      > 11. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest
                      > 12. mailto:PCGenListFileHelp-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
                      > 13. http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Richard Mead
                      Thanks again, Andrew. So, just to be absolutely clear, there is no way to clear the AUTO:FEAT from the class and thus editing the class file is required.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
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                        Thanks again, Andrew.

                        So, just to be absolutely clear, there is no way to clear the AUTO:FEAT from the class and thus editing the class file is required. Correct?

                        Any idea why PCGen is designed to not allow AUTO:FEAT|.CLEAR? If there's a good reason for it, then there's no point in requesting it be changed... ;-)


                        --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Richard,
                        >
                        > As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                        > working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                        >
                        > Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                        > method is the sure fire method.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                        > > Hi Richard,
                        > >
                        > > This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                        > >
                        > > Maredudd
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                        > >>
                        > >> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                        > >>
                        > >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                        > >>> Hi Richard,
                        > >>>
                        > >>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                        > >>>
                        > >>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                        > >>>
                        > >>> In the fighter class
                        > >>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                        > >>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                        > >>>
                        > >>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                        > >>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                        > >>>
                        > >>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                        > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                        > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                        > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                        > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Richard Mead
                        Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons: 1) Until you choose the archetype, the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:

                          1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)

                          2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)


                          --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Richard,
                          >
                          > As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                          > working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                          >
                          > Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                          > method is the sure fire method.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          >
                          > On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                          > > Hi Richard,
                          > >
                          > > This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                          > >
                          > > Maredudd
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                          > >>
                          > >> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                          > >>
                          > >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                          > >>> Hi Richard,
                          > >>>
                          > >>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                          > >>>
                          > >>> In the fighter class
                          > >>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                          > >>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                          > >>>
                          > >>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                          > >>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                          > >>>
                          > >>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                          > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                          > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                          > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                          > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Richard Mead
                          LOL - OK I lied: I have yet one more question. How do I prevent the TowerShieldProf TYPE from showing up when viewing the archetypes by type/name - I ask
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            LOL - OK I lied: I have yet one more question.

                            How do I prevent the TowerShieldProf TYPE from showing up when viewing the archetypes by 'type/name' - I ask mostly because I am using the type 'FighterArchetype' to differentiate from other base class archetypes, both for categorization (ease of use) in the GUI and for prevention of selecting more than one fighter archetype while allowing selection of an archetype for other base classes... (an Archer or Crossbowman Fighter archetype with the Sniper Rogue archetype comes to mind)

                            Note: I have tried the "hidden Archetype AbilityCategory with visible Class Archetype AbilityCategory" trick, but that just seems to give both an Archetype tab AND a Class Archetype tag, and still shows the Unbreakable archetype multiple times when viewing by 'type/name' (one for each type it is defined with)

                            I think I am back to preferring subclasses. :-)


                            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mead" <richardmead@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                            >
                            > 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                            >
                            > 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Richard,
                            > >
                            > > As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                            > > working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                            > >
                            > > Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                            > > method is the sure fire method.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers,
                            > >
                            > > On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                            > > > Hi Richard,
                            > > >
                            > > > This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                            > > >
                            > > > Maredudd
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                            > > >>
                            > > >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                            > > >>> Hi Richard,
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> In the fighter class
                            > > >>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                            > > >>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                            > > >>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                            > > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                            > > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                            > > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                            > > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                          • Andrew
                            Hi, Two issues: 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don t overlap - Subclass cannot handle that. 2) I wasn t aware that archetypes
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi,

                              Two issues:

                              1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                              that.

                              2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                              cite the rule?

                              On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                              > Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                              >
                              > 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                              >
                              > 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                              >> Hi Richard,
                              >>
                              >> As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                              >> working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                              >>
                              >> Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                              >> method is the sure fire method.
                              >>
                              >> Cheers,
                              >>
                              >> On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                              >>> Hi Richard,
                              >>>
                              >>> This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                              >>>
                              >>> Maredudd
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                              >>>
                              >>>> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                              >>>>
                              >>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                              >>>>> Hi Richard,
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> In the fighter class
                              >>>>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                              >>>>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                              >>>>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                              >>>>>
                              >>>>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                              >>> ------------------------------------
                              >>>
                              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >> --
                              >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                              >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                              >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                              >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                              >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              --
                              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                              Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andrew
                              Hi, In the PCC file. HIDETYPE: is the tag you are looking for... Look at the docs for the proper syntax, since I don t know it off the top of my head. ... --
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi,

                                In the PCC file. HIDETYPE: is the tag you are looking for... Look at the docs for the proper
                                syntax, since I don't know it off the top of my head.

                                On 1/30/2012 8:31 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                > LOL - OK I lied: I have yet one more question.
                                >
                                > How do I prevent the TowerShieldProf TYPE from showing up when viewing the archetypes by 'type/name' - I ask mostly because I am using the type 'FighterArchetype' to differentiate from other base class archetypes, both for categorization (ease of use) in the GUI and for prevention of selecting more than one fighter archetype while allowing selection of an archetype for other base classes... (an Archer or Crossbowman Fighter archetype with the Sniper Rogue archetype comes to mind)
                                >
                                > Note: I have tried the "hidden Archetype AbilityCategory with visible Class Archetype AbilityCategory" trick, but that just seems to give both an Archetype tab AND a Class Archetype tag, and still shows the Unbreakable archetype multiple times when viewing by 'type/name' (one for each type it is defined with)
                                >
                                > I think I am back to preferring subclasses. :-)
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mead" <richardmead@...> wrote:
                                >> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                >>
                                >> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                >>
                                >> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                >>> Hi Richard,
                                >>>
                                >>> As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                                >>> working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                                >>>
                                >>> Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                                >>> method is the sure fire method.
                                >>>
                                >>> Cheers,
                                >>>
                                >>> On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                                >>>> Hi Richard,
                                >>>>
                                >>>> This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Maredudd
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                >>>>
                                >>>>> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                                >>>>>
                                >>>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                >>>>>> Hi Richard,
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> In the fighter class
                                >>>>>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                                >>>>>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                                >>>>>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                                >>>>>>
                                >>>>>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                                >>>> ------------------------------------
                                >>>>
                                >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>>>
                                >>> --
                                >>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                >>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                >>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                >>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                >>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                >>>
                                >>>
                                >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >>>
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                --
                                Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Richard Mead
                                1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.

                                  2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?


                                  --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi,
                                  >
                                  > Two issues:
                                  >
                                  > 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                  > that.
                                  >
                                  > 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                  > cite the rule?
                                  >
                                  > On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                  > > Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                  > >
                                  > > 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                  > >
                                  > > 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                  > >> Hi Richard,
                                  > >>
                                  > >> As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                                  > >> working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                                  > >> method is the sure fire method.
                                  > >>
                                  > >> Cheers,
                                  > >>
                                  > >> On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                                  > >>> Hi Richard,
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Maredudd
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                                  > >>>>
                                  > >>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                  > >>>>> Hi Richard,
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> In the fighter class
                                  > >>>>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                                  > >>>>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                                  > >>>>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                                  > >>>>>
                                  > >>>>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                                  > >>> ------------------------------------
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >> --
                                  > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                  > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                  > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                  > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                  > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                  > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                  > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                  > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                  > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Richard Mead
                                  AH! Yes, thank you - I will try that in the .pcc file that is specific to my archetype definitions.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    AH! Yes, thank you - I will try that in the .pcc file that is specific to my archetype definitions.

                                    --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi,
                                    >
                                    > In the PCC file. HIDETYPE: is the tag you are looking for... Look at the docs for the proper
                                    > syntax, since I don't know it off the top of my head.
                                    >
                                    > On 1/30/2012 8:31 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                    > > LOL - OK I lied: I have yet one more question.
                                    > >
                                    > > How do I prevent the TowerShieldProf TYPE from showing up when viewing the archetypes by 'type/name' - I ask mostly because I am using the type 'FighterArchetype' to differentiate from other base class archetypes, both for categorization (ease of use) in the GUI and for prevention of selecting more than one fighter archetype while allowing selection of an archetype for other base classes... (an Archer or Crossbowman Fighter archetype with the Sniper Rogue archetype comes to mind)
                                    > >
                                    > > Note: I have tried the "hidden Archetype AbilityCategory with visible Class Archetype AbilityCategory" trick, but that just seems to give both an Archetype tab AND a Class Archetype tag, and still shows the Unbreakable archetype multiple times when viewing by 'type/name' (one for each type it is defined with)
                                    > >
                                    > > I think I am back to preferring subclasses. :-)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Mead" <richardmead@> wrote:
                                    > >> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                    > >>
                                    > >> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                    > >>
                                    > >> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                    > >>> Hi Richard,
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                                    > >>> working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                                    > >>> method is the sure fire method.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> Cheers,
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                                    > >>>> Hi Richard,
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>> This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>> Maredudd
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                                    > >>>>>
                                    > >>>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                    > >>>>>> Hi Richard,
                                    > >>>>>>
                                    > >>>>>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                                    > >>>>>>
                                    > >>>>>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                                    > >>>>>>
                                    > >>>>>> In the fighter class
                                    > >>>>>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                                    > >>>>>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                                    > >>>>>>
                                    > >>>>>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                                    > >>>>>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                                    > >>>>>>
                                    > >>>>>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                                    > >>>> ------------------------------------
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>>>
                                    > >>> --
                                    > >>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                    > >>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                    > >>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                    > >>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                    > >>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >>>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ------------------------------------
                                    > >
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                    > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                    > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                    > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                    > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Andrew
                                    Hi, ... Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I m pretty confident in following the rules and from the site this
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi,



                                      On 1/30/2012 9:00 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                      > 1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.

                                      Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I'm pretty
                                      confident in following the rules and from the site this makes it pretty clear the intention:

                                      "Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and
                                      flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers. The class archetypes and corresponding
                                      new abilities mentioned below are all included in this section, and characters may take more than
                                      one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."

                                      Since I don't have the book handy, I'll go with that, it's from the paizo site --
                                      http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html

                                      >
                                      > 2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?

                                      Agreed, APG is by no means a finished set, it still needs to be fixed and reviewed. And I am
                                      positive that it's not completely finished, as PCGen removes certain abilities, but the site
                                      mentions if it's a level gain type ability you get it at a lower tier. Something I don't think is
                                      set up correctly yet.

                                      If you find something in the rules do let me know...

                                      Cheers,

                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                      >> Hi,
                                      >>
                                      >> Two issues:
                                      >>
                                      >> 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                      >> that.
                                      >>
                                      >> 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                      >> cite the rule?
                                      >>
                                      >> On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                      >>> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                      >>>
                                      >>> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                      >>>> Hi Richard,
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> As Eric pointed out; That's the change we will be making to the core set, so to keep what you have
                                      >>>> working with our sets, that method I gave was the best option.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Yeah, it is annoying, but short of editing the core class, you'd have to make another class. This
                                      >>>> method is the sure fire method.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Cheers,
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> On 1/30/2012 8:44 AM, Eric C Smith wrote:
                                      >>>>> Hi Richard,
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> This type of change has been incorporated throughout most of the core set as a responce to the changes required by the APG, so this is a change that will need to be incorporated into the core as we move towards implementing the UC set, which seems to be in development per this JIRA Tracker: http://jira.pcgen.org/browse/NEWSOURCE-130
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> Maredudd
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> On Jan 30, 2012, at 11:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>> Thanks Andrew - that's a good generalization as well, allowing it to be used for other similar situations.
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> However, are you saying that there is no way to accomplish this without directly modifying the base class file containing the original definition of Fighter? That seems... problematic.
                                      >>>>>>
                                      >>>>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                      >>>>>>> Hi Richard,
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> I believe the nature of AUTO is such you cannot clear it.
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> Instead, your fix would be this:
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> In the fighter class
                                      >>>>>>> Change the AUTO:FEAT entry to this (Separate the Feat in question to be standalone)
                                      >>>>>>> AUTO:FEAT|Tower Shield Proficiency|!PREABILITY:1,CATEGORY=Archetype,TYPE.TowerShieldProf
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> In your Archetype Ability - add 'TowerShieldProf' to your TYPE List, remember it's a period
                                      >>>>>>> delimited list. TYPE:Archetype.TowerShieldProf.OtherStuff
                                      >>>>>>>
                                      >>>>>>> When you grab that Archetype, it will disable the 'Tower Shield Proficiency'
                                      >>>>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>> --
                                      >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                      >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                      >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                      >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                      >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>>>
                                      >>> ------------------------------------
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >> --
                                      >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                      >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                      >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                      >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                      >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      --
                                      Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                      Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                      Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                      Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                      Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Richard Mead
                                      You are absolutely right on point 1 - it clearly states this in the docs. So it looks like the overlapping archetypes will need to exclude each other from
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        You are absolutely right on point 1 - it clearly states this in the docs. So it looks like the 'overlapping' archetypes will need to exclude each other from selection. (hard-coded in the PREABILITY tagging)

                                        Here's the bit that makes me think you need to take the archetype(s) at the first (base class) level - though it is not explicitly stated:

                                        ---------------
                                        The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source—the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.

                                        When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.
                                        ---------------

                                        --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > On 1/30/2012 9:00 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                        > > 1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.
                                        >
                                        > Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I'm pretty
                                        > confident in following the rules and from the site this makes it pretty clear the intention:
                                        >
                                        > "Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and
                                        > flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers. The class archetypes and corresponding
                                        > new abilities mentioned below are all included in this section, and characters may take more than
                                        > one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."
                                        >
                                        > Since I don't have the book handy, I'll go with that, it's from the paizo site --
                                        > http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > 2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?
                                        >
                                        > Agreed, APG is by no means a finished set, it still needs to be fixed and reviewed. And I am
                                        > positive that it's not completely finished, as PCGen removes certain abilities, but the site
                                        > mentions if it's a level gain type ability you get it at a lower tier. Something I don't think is
                                        > set up correctly yet.
                                        >
                                        > If you find something in the rules do let me know...
                                        >
                                        > Cheers,
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                        > >> Hi,
                                        > >>
                                        > >> Two issues:
                                        > >>
                                        > >> 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                        > >> that.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                        > >> cite the rule?
                                        > >>
                                        > >> On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                        > >>> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                        > >>>
                                        > >>> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                        > >>>
                                        > >>> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                        > >>>
                                        > >>>

                                        [unrelated reply text removed for brevity]

                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                        > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                        > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                        > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                        > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Andrew
                                        Hi, ... You mean how they are already set up to work? :P ... Oh sure, but let me give you another point of view - I m a GM, I m in charge of creating a ton of
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jan 30, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Hi,



                                          On 1/30/2012 10:44 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                          > You are absolutely right on point 1 - it clearly states this in the docs. So it looks like the 'overlapping' archetypes will need to exclude each other from selection. (hard-coded in the PREABILITY tagging)

                                          You mean how they are already set up to work? :P

                                          >
                                          > Here's the bit that makes me think you need to take the archetype(s) at the first (base class) level - though it is not explicitly stated:
                                          >
                                          > ---------------
                                          > The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source---the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
                                          >
                                          > When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all---often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.

                                          Oh sure, but let me give you another point of view - I'm a GM, I'm in charge of creating a ton of
                                          NPCs for my games, I also manage all my players' characters. If I place a restriction on the
                                          creation process, it makes it difficult to manage a bunch of PCs and NPCs, right? Since I do bulk
                                          level gains, and add things after I've give the correct level, it would be inconvenient to be forced
                                          to change how I do things, hence why house rules exist so I can spend skills and grant languages and
                                          alter this or that after 1st level. Also, I'd expect the GM and players to be self-policing. Say a
                                          player discovers Archetypes (Just bought the book), and he's 5th level, and finds the Archetype fits
                                          the character how it has been played and the GM agrees, that user would need to either

                                          a) rebuild the character from scratch
                                          b) level down to first level to take that one selection

                                          Since the rules don't say "Characters may only take this at their 1st class level" we aren't going
                                          to put that in. Remember, PCGen is foremost a Character Creation and Maintenance tool - It can make
                                          Rules Legal characters, but it has the capability to make Rules Illegal characters as well. It's up
                                          to the Players to self-police and the GM to monitor his players to make sure everything is following
                                          the rules he is using.

                                          Though, in discussion with you, nothing says you can't change the programing on your end and make it
                                          do what you want. That is the beauty of PCGen, you make it work how you want it too.

                                          I hope that helps you understand the reason why things are done the way they are... it's meant to
                                          make it easier on the end-user when possible but still follow the rules.

                                          Cheers,


                                          > ---------------
                                          >
                                          > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                          >> Hi,
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> On 1/30/2012 9:00 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                          >>> 1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.
                                          >> Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I'm pretty
                                          >> confident in following the rules and from the site this makes it pretty clear the intention:
                                          >>
                                          >> "Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and
                                          >> flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers. The class archetypes and corresponding
                                          >> new abilities mentioned below are all included in this section, and characters may take more than
                                          >> one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."
                                          >>
                                          >> Since I don't have the book handy, I'll go with that, it's from the paizo site --
                                          >> http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html
                                          >>
                                          >>> 2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?
                                          >> Agreed, APG is by no means a finished set, it still needs to be fixed and reviewed. And I am
                                          >> positive that it's not completely finished, as PCGen removes certain abilities, but the site
                                          >> mentions if it's a level gain type ability you get it at a lower tier. Something I don't think is
                                          >> set up correctly yet.
                                          >>
                                          >> If you find something in the rules do let me know...
                                          >>
                                          >> Cheers,
                                          >>
                                          >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                          >>>> Hi,
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> Two issues:
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                          >>>> that.
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                          >>>> cite the rule?
                                          >>>>
                                          >>>> On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                          >>>>> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                          >>>>>
                                          >>>>>
                                          > [unrelated reply text removed for brevity]
                                          >
                                          >> --
                                          >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                          >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                          >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                          >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                          >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          > ------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          --
                                          Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                          Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                          Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                          Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                          Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Richard Mead
                                          Hmmm... would you say then that taking an archetype is retroactive, or would the archetype modifications only apply from the current level forward? Again,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jan 31, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hmmm... would you say then that taking an archetype is retroactive, or would the archetype modifications only apply from the current level forward? Again, the text seems to imply that it would be retroactive, but since you are the one coding it... :-)

                                            From the way it's being coded it looks like it will not behave retroactively?

                                            Thanks for your time!

                                            P.S. I see that there are restrictions coded in the .lst files to prevent taking 'overlapping' archetypes, using 'type' flags - it is certainly more flexible and easier to code, but I think it may be more difficult for the user to identify which archetypes exclude which others... WDYT? Is there a way to make those exclusions more clear?

                                            P.P.S. I don't see that those type flags are listed as HIDETYPEs in the .pcc file.


                                            --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On 1/30/2012 10:44 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                            > > You are absolutely right on point 1 - it clearly states this in the docs. So it looks like the 'overlapping' archetypes will need to exclude each other from selection. (hard-coded in the PREABILITY tagging)
                                            >
                                            > You mean how they are already set up to work? :P
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > Here's the bit that makes me think you need to take the archetype(s) at the first (base class) level - though it is not explicitly stated:
                                            > >
                                            > > ---------------
                                            > > The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source---the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
                                            > >
                                            > > When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all---often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.
                                            >
                                            > Oh sure, but let me give you another point of view - I'm a GM, I'm in charge of creating a ton of
                                            > NPCs for my games, I also manage all my players' characters. If I place a restriction on the
                                            > creation process, it makes it difficult to manage a bunch of PCs and NPCs, right? Since I do bulk
                                            > level gains, and add things after I've give the correct level, it would be inconvenient to be forced
                                            > to change how I do things, hence why house rules exist so I can spend skills and grant languages and
                                            > alter this or that after 1st level. Also, I'd expect the GM and players to be self-policing. Say a
                                            > player discovers Archetypes (Just bought the book), and he's 5th level, and finds the Archetype fits
                                            > the character how it has been played and the GM agrees, that user would need to either
                                            >
                                            > a) rebuild the character from scratch
                                            > b) level down to first level to take that one selection
                                            >
                                            > Since the rules don't say "Characters may only take this at their 1st class level" we aren't going
                                            > to put that in. Remember, PCGen is foremost a Character Creation and Maintenance tool - It can make
                                            > Rules Legal characters, but it has the capability to make Rules Illegal characters as well. It's up
                                            > to the Players to self-police and the GM to monitor his players to make sure everything is following
                                            > the rules he is using.
                                            >
                                            > Though, in discussion with you, nothing says you can't change the programing on your end and make it
                                            > do what you want. That is the beauty of PCGen, you make it work how you want it too.
                                            >
                                            > I hope that helps you understand the reason why things are done the way they are... it's meant to
                                            > make it easier on the end-user when possible but still follow the rules.
                                            >
                                            > Cheers,
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > ---------------
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                            > >> Hi,
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >> On 1/30/2012 9:00 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                            > >>> 1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.
                                            > >> Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I'm pretty
                                            > >> confident in following the rules and from the site this makes it pretty clear the intention:
                                            > >>
                                            > >> "Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and
                                            > >> flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers. The class archetypes and corresponding
                                            > >> new abilities mentioned below are all included in this section, and characters may take more than
                                            > >> one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Since I don't have the book handy, I'll go with that, it's from the paizo site --
                                            > >> http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html
                                            > >>
                                            > >>> 2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?
                                            > >> Agreed, APG is by no means a finished set, it still needs to be fixed and reviewed. And I am
                                            > >> positive that it's not completely finished, as PCGen removes certain abilities, but the site
                                            > >> mentions if it's a level gain type ability you get it at a lower tier. Something I don't think is
                                            > >> set up correctly yet.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> If you find something in the rules do let me know...
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Cheers,
                                            > >>
                                            > >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                            > >>>> Hi,
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>> Two issues:
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>> 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                            > >>>> that.
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>> 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                            > >>>> cite the rule?
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>> On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                            > >>>>> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > > [unrelated reply text removed for brevity]
                                            > >
                                            > >> --
                                            > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                            > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                            > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                            > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                            > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >>
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                            > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                            > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                            > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                            > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Andrew
                                            Hi, ... It s retroactive the current method of it s coding. What isn t implemented properly is the staggered level gain - i.e. if you lose Sneak Attack at
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jan 31, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi,



                                              On 1/31/2012 8:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                              > Hmmm... would you say then that taking an archetype is retroactive, or would the archetype modifications only apply from the current level forward? Again, the text seems to imply that it would be retroactive, but since you are the one coding it... :-)
                                              >
                                              > >From the way it's being coded it looks like it will not behave retroactively?

                                              It's retroactive the current method of it's coding. What isn't implemented properly is the staggered
                                              level gain - i.e. if you lose Sneak Attack at first level, at 3rd level you should get Sneak Attack,
                                              albeit -1d6 from the standard total as I read the online text.

                                              >
                                              > Thanks for your time!

                                              I'm glad people appreciate the time. Some days you have to wonder though. :)

                                              >
                                              > P.S. I see that there are restrictions coded in the .lst files to prevent taking 'overlapping' archetypes, using 'type' flags - it is certainly more flexible and easier to code, but I think it may be more difficult for the user to identify which archetypes exclude which others... WDYT? Is there a way to make those exclusions more clear?

                                              How do you mean? If you take an Archetype and others would overlap, those that overlap become RED,
                                              showing they are no longer available. Each archetype ability you click on has it's exclusion types
                                              listed last I checked, and those were worded to be human readable. I'm open to suggestions, but a
                                              lot of vetting and thought went into making it work and expandable for the newer sources coming out.
                                              Racial Traits was another beast to tackle.

                                              >
                                              > P.P.S. I don't see that those type flags are listed as HIDETYPEs in the .pcc file.

                                              It's not intuitive at the moment -

                                              HIDETYPE:FEAT|YourType|AnotherType|ThirdType

                                              Is what you want. Just beware, this hides every type of that Feat/Ability across ALL categories.
                                              There is a Feature Request to make this a little more user friendly.


                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                              >> Hi,
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> On 1/30/2012 10:44 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                              >>> You are absolutely right on point 1 - it clearly states this in the docs. So it looks like the 'overlapping' archetypes will need to exclude each other from selection. (hard-coded in the PREABILITY tagging)
                                              >> You mean how they are already set up to work? :P
                                              >>
                                              >>> Here's the bit that makes me think you need to take the archetype(s) at the first (base class) level - though it is not explicitly stated:
                                              >>>
                                              >>> ---------------
                                              >>> The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source---the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
                                              >>>
                                              >>> When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all---often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.
                                              >> Oh sure, but let me give you another point of view - I'm a GM, I'm in charge of creating a ton of
                                              >> NPCs for my games, I also manage all my players' characters. If I place a restriction on the
                                              >> creation process, it makes it difficult to manage a bunch of PCs and NPCs, right? Since I do bulk
                                              >> level gains, and add things after I've give the correct level, it would be inconvenient to be forced
                                              >> to change how I do things, hence why house rules exist so I can spend skills and grant languages and
                                              >> alter this or that after 1st level. Also, I'd expect the GM and players to be self-policing. Say a
                                              >> player discovers Archetypes (Just bought the book), and he's 5th level, and finds the Archetype fits
                                              >> the character how it has been played and the GM agrees, that user would need to either
                                              >>
                                              >> a) rebuild the character from scratch
                                              >> b) level down to first level to take that one selection
                                              >>
                                              >> Since the rules don't say "Characters may only take this at their 1st class level" we aren't going
                                              >> to put that in. Remember, PCGen is foremost a Character Creation and Maintenance tool - It can make
                                              >> Rules Legal characters, but it has the capability to make Rules Illegal characters as well. It's up
                                              >> to the Players to self-police and the GM to monitor his players to make sure everything is following
                                              >> the rules he is using.
                                              >>
                                              >> Though, in discussion with you, nothing says you can't change the programing on your end and make it
                                              >> do what you want. That is the beauty of PCGen, you make it work how you want it too.
                                              >>
                                              >> I hope that helps you understand the reason why things are done the way they are... it's meant to
                                              >> make it easier on the end-user when possible but still follow the rules.
                                              >>
                                              >> Cheers,
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >>> ---------------
                                              >>>
                                              >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                              >>>> Hi,
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> On 1/30/2012 9:00 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                              >>>>> 1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.
                                              >>>> Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I'm pretty
                                              >>>> confident in following the rules and from the site this makes it pretty clear the intention:
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> "Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and
                                              >>>> flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers. The class archetypes and corresponding
                                              >>>> new abilities mentioned below are all included in this section, and characters may take more than
                                              >>>> one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> Since I don't have the book handy, I'll go with that, it's from the paizo site --
                                              >>>> http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>> 2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?
                                              >>>> Agreed, APG is by no means a finished set, it still needs to be fixed and reviewed. And I am
                                              >>>> positive that it's not completely finished, as PCGen removes certain abilities, but the site
                                              >>>> mentions if it's a level gain type ability you get it at a lower tier. Something I don't think is
                                              >>>> set up correctly yet.
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> If you find something in the rules do let me know...
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> Cheers,
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                              >>>>>> Hi,
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> Two issues:
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                              >>>>>> that.
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                              >>>>>> cite the rule?
                                              >>>>>>
                                              >>>>>> On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                              >>>>>>> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>>>>>>
                                              >>> [unrelated reply text removed for brevity]
                                              >>>
                                              >>>> --
                                              >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                              >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                              >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                              >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                              >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>>
                                              >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >>>>
                                              >>> ------------------------------------
                                              >>>
                                              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >>>
                                              >> --
                                              >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                              >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                              >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                              >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                              >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                              >>
                                              >>
                                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              --
                                              Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                              Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                              Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                              Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                              Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Richard Mead
                                              Yes, the Sneak Attack and similar changes would need to be BONUS:VAR tags with a -1 bonus. That s what I used for the Fighter Bonus Feat that you lose at
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jan 31, 2012
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                                                Yes, the Sneak Attack and similar changes would need to be BONUS:VAR tags with a '-1' bonus. That's what I used for the Fighter Bonus Feat that you lose at first level of Unbreakable.

                                                And responding to these posts is a huge time-sink, I know, let alone coding and testing the .lst files! Truly, I do appreciate it!

                                                As for the Archetype exclusions being easier to understand: you have to actually make the selection in order for the other archetypes to turn red - so you would need to select each one in turn, then deselect it, in order to clearly see the conflicting ones. Having the exclusion types listed only tells you what you need to know if you understand which archetypes include those types - otherwise you have to click on each archetype in turn to see if it includes that type - and do that for each type... I don't see that there is any other choice though, considering the need to be able to mix-and-match archetypes...

                                                And about the HIDETYPE tag: I understand what is needed and it's consequences, what I was saying is that I do not see such a tag in the .pcc file for the alpha dataset for the advanced player's guide, and the HIDETYPE tags in the alpha core rulebook .pcc file do not include archetype 'exclusion types.'

                                                Many thanks again!


                                                --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi,
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On 1/31/2012 8:35 AM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                                > > Hmmm... would you say then that taking an archetype is retroactive, or would the archetype modifications only apply from the current level forward? Again, the text seems to imply that it would be retroactive, but since you are the one coding it... :-)
                                                > >
                                                > > >From the way it's being coded it looks like it will not behave retroactively?
                                                >
                                                > It's retroactive the current method of it's coding. What isn't implemented properly is the staggered
                                                > level gain - i.e. if you lose Sneak Attack at first level, at 3rd level you should get Sneak Attack,
                                                > albeit -1d6 from the standard total as I read the online text.
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > Thanks for your time!
                                                >
                                                > I'm glad people appreciate the time. Some days you have to wonder though. :)
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > P.S. I see that there are restrictions coded in the .lst files to prevent taking 'overlapping' archetypes, using 'type' flags - it is certainly more flexible and easier to code, but I think it may be more difficult for the user to identify which archetypes exclude which others... WDYT? Is there a way to make those exclusions more clear?
                                                >
                                                > How do you mean? If you take an Archetype and others would overlap, those that overlap become RED,
                                                > showing they are no longer available. Each archetype ability you click on has it's exclusion types
                                                > listed last I checked, and those were worded to be human readable. I'm open to suggestions, but a
                                                > lot of vetting and thought went into making it work and expandable for the newer sources coming out.
                                                > Racial Traits was another beast to tackle.
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > > P.P.S. I don't see that those type flags are listed as HIDETYPEs in the .pcc file.
                                                >
                                                > It's not intuitive at the moment -
                                                >
                                                > HIDETYPE:FEAT|YourType|AnotherType|ThirdType
                                                >
                                                > Is what you want. Just beware, this hides every type of that Feat/Ability across ALL categories.
                                                > There is a Feature Request to make this a little more user friendly.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                                > >> Hi,
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> On 1/30/2012 10:44 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                                > >>> You are absolutely right on point 1 - it clearly states this in the docs. So it looks like the 'overlapping' archetypes will need to exclude each other from selection. (hard-coded in the PREABILITY tagging)
                                                > >> You mean how they are already set up to work? :P
                                                > >>
                                                > >>> Here's the bit that makes me think you need to take the archetype(s) at the first (base class) level - though it is not explicitly stated:
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> ---------------
                                                > >>> The primary way in which archetypes modify their corresponding base classes is via the use of alternate class features. When a character selects a class, he must normally choose to use the standard class features found in the class's original source---the exception is if he chooses to adopt an archetype. Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class. For example, the flowing monk archetype's redirection class feature replaces the Stunning Fist feature of the standard monk class.
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all---often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.
                                                > >> Oh sure, but let me give you another point of view - I'm a GM, I'm in charge of creating a ton of
                                                > >> NPCs for my games, I also manage all my players' characters. If I place a restriction on the
                                                > >> creation process, it makes it difficult to manage a bunch of PCs and NPCs, right? Since I do bulk
                                                > >> level gains, and add things after I've give the correct level, it would be inconvenient to be forced
                                                > >> to change how I do things, hence why house rules exist so I can spend skills and grant languages and
                                                > >> alter this or that after 1st level. Also, I'd expect the GM and players to be self-policing. Say a
                                                > >> player discovers Archetypes (Just bought the book), and he's 5th level, and finds the Archetype fits
                                                > >> the character how it has been played and the GM agrees, that user would need to either
                                                > >>
                                                > >> a) rebuild the character from scratch
                                                > >> b) level down to first level to take that one selection
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Since the rules don't say "Characters may only take this at their 1st class level" we aren't going
                                                > >> to put that in. Remember, PCGen is foremost a Character Creation and Maintenance tool - It can make
                                                > >> Rules Legal characters, but it has the capability to make Rules Illegal characters as well. It's up
                                                > >> to the Players to self-police and the GM to monitor his players to make sure everything is following
                                                > >> the rules he is using.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Though, in discussion with you, nothing says you can't change the programing on your end and make it
                                                > >> do what you want. That is the beauty of PCGen, you make it work how you want it too.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I hope that helps you understand the reason why things are done the way they are... it's meant to
                                                > >> make it easier on the end-user when possible but still follow the rules.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Cheers,
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>> ---------------
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                                > >>>> Hi,
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> On 1/30/2012 9:00 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                                > >>>>> 1) Right - presuming overlap means same base class? Thus you can only have one fighter archetype, but if you multi-class then you can take an archetype of the other class.
                                                > >>>> Considering I was the one that coded up the archetypes from the core book, I think I'm pretty
                                                > >>>> confident in following the rules and from the site this makes it pretty clear the intention:
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> "Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and
                                                > >>>> flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers. The class archetypes and corresponding
                                                > >>>> new abilities mentioned below are all included in this section, and characters may take more than
                                                > >>>> one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> Since I don't have the book handy, I'll go with that, it's from the paizo site --
                                                > >>>> http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes.html
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>>> 2) Well, I don't know that there IS a rule to cite (I will look though) - it just makes sense... I suppose it might work to start being a particular archetype sometime after 1st level, but it didn't occur to me that, say, a character would start being Unbreakable at 5th level fighter and not get the archetype benefits of level 1-4 (or non-benefits in the case where the archetype levels are somehow less desirable than the base class abilities of those levels) - or, suddenly lose the fighter abilities and gain the archetype ones...!?
                                                > >>>> Agreed, APG is by no means a finished set, it still needs to be fixed and reviewed. And I am
                                                > >>>> positive that it's not completely finished, as PCGen removes certain abilities, but the site
                                                > >>>> mentions if it's a level gain type ability you get it at a lower tier. Something I don't think is
                                                > >>>> set up correctly yet.
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> If you find something in the rules do let me know...
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> Cheers,
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>>> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew <drew0500@> wrote:
                                                > >>>>>> Hi,
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> Two issues:
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> 1) You can take any combination of archetypes as long as they don't overlap - Subclass cannot handle
                                                > >>>>>> that.
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> 2) I wasn't aware that archetypes were restricted to a level 1 choice for the class, can you please
                                                > >>>>>> cite the rule?
                                                > >>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>> On 1/30/2012 7:53 PM, Richard Mead wrote:
                                                > >>>>>>> Oh, one other point: it would seem that implementing archetypes as a sub-class would be a better option for two reasons:
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> 1) Until you choose the archetype, the character will have all of the first level base class abilities even if the archetype disallows them. You could essentially play all of first level as the base class before choosing the archetype... (I presume that archetypes will be coded up as I have done where you are prevented from selecting it once you are 2nd level or above in the base class)
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>> 2) There are plenty of additional level-based replacement abilities that archetypes define (such as replacing 'Bravery' with 'Unflinching' at level 2 in the Unbreakable Fighter archetype) that are specifically handled by SUBCLASS and SUBCLASSLEVEL tags. And you don't have to modify the base class file then... :-) And you could keep the base classes simpler too! (like just using AUTO:FEAT)
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>>>>>>
                                                > >>> [unrelated reply text removed for brevity]
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>> --
                                                > >>>> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                > >>>> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                > >>>> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                > >>>> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                > >>>> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > >>>>
                                                > >>> ------------------------------------
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >>>
                                                > >> --
                                                > >> Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                > >> Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                > >> Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                > >> Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                > >> Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                > >>
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > ------------------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > Andrew Maitland (LegacyKing)
                                                > Admin Silverback - PCGen Board of Directors
                                                > Data 2nd, Docs Tamarin, OS Lemur
                                                > Unique Title "Quick-Silverback Tracker Monkey"
                                                > Unique Title "The Torturer of PCGen"
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
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