Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TM][DOC][Bug]RSRD Vampire template feats not applied

Expand Messages
  • pshipley@ymail.com
    Thanks for your speedy response. I can confirm that the FEAT tag is not working with monsters, either through race or templates (or at least, it is not working
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks for your speedy response.

      I can confirm that the FEAT tag is not working with monsters, either through race or templates (or at least, it is not working on my 5.16.2 with the RSRD straight out the box). AUTO:FEAT and VFEAT seem to work just fine (is there any definition of how a "virtual" feat is conceptually different from any other sort of automatic feat?).

      (e.g. an unmodified Djinni from the RSRD does not have Improved Initiative in pcgen, despite a FEAT:Improved Initiative entry in the .lst).

      Still can't really believe I'm not doing something idiotic as seems unlikely that nobody else has noticed: this would seem to be a pretty major problem as a quick glance through the RSRD monster race .lsts suggest they almost all use this syntax for bonus feats. Would be a comfort if someone else could confirm!
    • Andrew Maitland
      Hi, Well, only 3.5 hours left to go supposedly. I ll be able to take a look at it at that point. I must admit I don t normally make many templated critters,
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi,

        Well, only 3.5 hours left to go supposedly. I'll be able to take a look at it at that point.

        I must admit I don't normally make many templated critters, and considering you're the first to catch this, I'd say not many others have either. Which means this broke some time ago and this is the first catch.

        Shouldn't take much effort to fix the underlying issue of choosing a feat, just simply use the new ABILITYPOOL system that is designed for this purpose.

        The Code issue will have to be determined, it may be time to retire the old syntax model. After all, Tom is reworking the CHOOSER system so we can make a choice and have it applied. That will be very nice when it's finished.

        FEAT should still work in RACE and TEMPLATE files, but *shrug* sounds like it's been broken. I'll confirm it as soon as I can.

        A virtual feat can be taken even if the character doesn't meet the requirements. VFEAT was also the only 'feat group' out of FEAT, AUTO:FEAT and VFEAT syntax that could take a PRExxx tag, making it the preferred method for hidden abilities triggered by prereqs before we got the ABILITY object.

        A classic example of this usage - Monk, add a couple of levels, you'll get the abilitypool with the choices, and inside all those 'Feats' are the VFEAT call to the real feat. Before ABILITYPOOL we used 'ADD:VFEAT'.

        It also follows the conventions as set forth in the rsrd. Automatic Feats and Abilities are granted by classes; virtual feats are feats granted as bonus feats by race, or class which bypass certain restrictions placed upon the ability to take the feat itself.




        ________________________________
        From: "pshipley@..." <paul_shipley@...>
        To: PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, February 9, 2010 1:52:00 PM
        Subject: [PCGenListFileHelp] Re: [TM][DOC][Bug]RSRD Vampire template feats not applied

        Thanks for your speedy response.

        I can confirm that the FEAT tag is not working with monsters, either through race or templates (or at least, it is not working on my 5.16.2 with the RSRD straight out the box). AUTO:FEAT and VFEAT seem to work just fine (is there any definition of how a "virtual" feat is conceptually different from any other sort of automatic feat?).

        (e.g. an unmodified Djinni from the RSRD does not have Improved Initiative in pcgen, despite a FEAT:Improved Initiative entry in the .lst).

        Still can't really believe I'm not doing something idiotic as seems unlikely that nobody else has noticed: this would seem to be a pretty major problem as a quick glance through the RSRD monster race .lsts suggest they almost all use this syntax for bonus feats. Would be a comfort if someone else could confirm!



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • pshipley@ymail.com
        ... By this logic (which makes eminent sense) all the RSRD monsters & templates - which currently use FEAT - should probably used VFEAT instead (which has the
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...> wrote:
          > <snip>
          > It also follows the conventions as set forth in the rsrd. Automatic Feats and Abilities are granted by classes; virtual feats are feats granted as bonus feats by race, or class which bypass certain restrictions placed upon the ability to take the feat itself.
          > </snip>

          By this logic (which makes eminent sense) all the RSRD monsters & templates - which currently use FEAT - should probably used VFEAT instead (which has the side benefit of still working :-).

          > <snip>
          > Shouldn't take much effort to fix the underlying issue of choosing a feat, just simply use the new ABILITYPOOL system that is designed for this purpose.
          > </snip>

          For the record, the RSRD vampire appears a little unusual in monster terms: it doesn't offer a choice of feats, merely grants (all of) a list of bonus feats if & only if the relevant prerequisites are met. As it happens, only one actually has a prerequisite in vanilla (Dodge), so it's easy enough to work around but...

          Unless I'm totally missing the point of pools, this doesn't seem like something that's worth setting up a pool for (after all, there are no choices to make), merely an easy method of testing whether the feat's prerequisites have been met (without coding them all in again in the monster, which seems daft). Is there a trick I'm missing?
        • Tir Gwaith
          On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:34 PM, pshipley@ymail.com ... 0 By this logic (which makes eminent sense) all the RSRD monsters & templates - which currently use
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 4:34 PM, pshipley@...
            <paul_shipley@...> wrote:
            > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Maitland <drew0500@...> wrote:
            >> <snip>
            >> It also follows the conventions as set forth in the rsrd. Automatic Feats and Abilities are granted by classes; virtual feats are feats granted as bonus feats by race, or class which bypass certain restrictions placed upon the ability to take the feat itself.
            >> </snip>
            >
            0> By this logic (which makes eminent sense) all the RSRD monsters &
            templates - which currently use FEAT - should probably used VFEAT
            instead (which has the side benefit of still working :-).
            >

            I suppose, but the logic he stated isn't really there. It doesn't
            really matter if they are Automatic or not. VIRTUAL is used for those
            that have PRExxx that don't match normal (typically in classes, like
            the Ranger "When in light or medium armor" stuff). Automatic is for
            straight stuff that happens straight out of books, or ignoring prereqs
            no matter what.

            >> <snip>
            >> Shouldn't take much effort to fix the underlying issue of choosing a feat, just simply use the new ABILITYPOOL system that is designed for this purpose.
            >> </snip>
            >
            > For the record, the RSRD vampire appears a little unusual in monster terms: it doesn't offer a choice of feats, merely grants (all of) a list of bonus feats if & only if the relevant prerequisites are met. As it happens, only one actually has a prerequisite in vanilla (Dodge), so it's easy enough to work around but...
            >

            Best way is probably a series of ADD:FEAT with one per tag. That way
            if the options are set, it will be silent. Can't remember if that
            will increase the feat pool if nothing makes the filter.


            Do we have this trackered?

            > Unless I'm totally missing the point of pools, this doesn't seem like something that's worth setting up a pool for (after all, there are no choices to make), merely an easy method of testing whether the feat's prerequisites have been met (without coding them all in again in the monster, which seems daft). Is there a trick I'm missing?
            >

            Yeah, a pool won't do much good.

            I'm thinking adding through Starting KIT. FEAT:whatever FREE:YES.
            I think that still respects PRExxx tags. I can't remember atm.
            That's where I'd want to try first.

            Tir Gwaith
            PCGen LST Chimp
          • Eddy Anthony
            ... The RSRD test is: Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Tir Gwaith scribed:

              >> For the record, the RSRD vampire appears a little unusual in monster terms:
              >> it doesn't offer a choice of feats, merely grants (all of) a list of bonus
              >> feats if & only if the relevant prerequisites are met. As it happens, only
              >> one actually has a prerequisite in vanilla (Dodge), so it's easy enough to
              >> work around but...
              >>
              >
              > Best way is probably a series of ADD:FEAT with one per tag. That way
              > if the options are set, it will be silent. Can't remember if that
              > will increase the feat pool if nothing makes the filter.

              The RSRD test is: "Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved
              Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the
              prerequisites and doesn't already have these feats."

              So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
              appended to them.

              In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
              AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.

              A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
              the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.
              --
              ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
              ~ PCGen Data, Docs & Tracker Chimp
              ~ Outputsheet Tamarin & Mac build guru
            • Tir Gwaith
              ... That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of those feats (I m considering homebrews, here.) ... Yep. At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
                >> Best way is probably a series of ADD:FEAT with one per tag.  That way
                >> if the options are set, it will be silent.  Can't remember if that
                >> will increase the feat pool if nothing makes the filter.
                >
                > The RSRD test is: "Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved
                > Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the
                > prerequisites and doesn't already have these feats."
                >
                > So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
                > appended to them.

                That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of
                those feats (I'm considering homebrews, here.)

                > In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
                > AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.

                Yep. At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT didn't reliably work everwhere
                (DOMAINS / DEITY was one I remember distinctly.)

                > A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
                > the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.

                Yep. I think a long-term solution would be to wrap FEAT into
                AUTO:FEAT. I do recall there was some subtle difference between the
                functionality of FEAT and AUTO:FEAT, but I don't recall what that is.
                If there isn't, then there is no point to maintaining FEAT, and we
                should go the deprecation (and LST converter change) route.

                Tir Gwaith
                PCGen LST Chimp
              • Eddy Anthony
                ... True, but that s how we ve always done it. It would be nice to have a tag that would grant a feat/ability automatically but only if the PC passes the
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 9, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tir Gwaith scribed:

                  >> So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
                  >> appended to them.
                  >
                  > That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of
                  > those feats (I'm considering homebrews, here.)

                  True, but that's how we've always done it.

                  It would be nice to have a tag that would grant a feat/ability automatically
                  but only if the PC passes the prereqs but we don't have that now. Nice FREQ
                  though.

                  >> In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
                  >> AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.
                  >
                  > Yep. At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT didn't reliably work everwhere
                  > (DOMAINS / DEITY was one I remember distinctly.)
                  >
                  >> A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
                  >> the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.
                  >
                  > Yep. I think a long-term solution would be to wrap FEAT into
                  > AUTO:FEAT. I do recall there was some subtle difference between the
                  > functionality of FEAT and AUTO:FEAT, but I don't recall what that is.
                  > If there isn't, then there is no point to maintaining FEAT, and we
                  > should go the deprecation (and LST converter change) route.

                  I know there were discussions with Tom about this but I don't recall where
                  they went.
                  --
                  ~ Eddy Anthony (MoSaT)
                  ~ PCGen Data, Docs & Tracker Chimp
                  ~ Outputsheet Tamarin & Mac build guru
                • Tir Gwaith
                  ... Wait, we ve come across this before? I didn t know that. Definitely something I d like to look at post 6.0. ... Yep, same here. On my list to review...
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 10, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
                    > Tir Gwaith scribed:
                    >
                    >>> So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
                    >>> appended to them.
                    >>
                    >> That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of
                    >> those feats (I'm considering homebrews, here.)
                    >
                    > True, but that's how we've always done it.
                    >
                    > It would be nice to have a tag that would grant a feat/ability automatically
                    > but only if the PC passes the prereqs but we don't have that now. Nice FREQ
                    > though.

                    Wait, we've come across this before? I didn't know that. Definitely
                    something I'd like to look at post 6.0.

                    >
                    >>> In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
                    >>> AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.
                    >>
                    >> Yep.  At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT didn't reliably work everwhere
                    >> (DOMAINS / DEITY was one I remember distinctly.)
                    >>
                    >>> A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
                    >>> the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.
                    >>
                    >> Yep.  I think a long-term solution would be to wrap FEAT into
                    >> AUTO:FEAT.  I do recall there was some subtle difference between the
                    >> functionality of FEAT and AUTO:FEAT, but I don't recall what that is.
                    >> If there isn't, then there is no point to maintaining FEAT, and we
                    >> should go the deprecation (and LST converter change) route.
                    >
                    > I know there were discussions with Tom about this but I don't recall where
                    > they went.

                    Yep, same here. On my list to review...

                    Tir Gwaith
                    PCGen LST Chimp
                  • karianna03
                    I only 10% followed this conversation, did everything get trackered that needed to be? K
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 15, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I only 10% followed this conversation, did everything get trackered that needed to be?

                      K

                      --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Tir Gwaith <Tir.Gwaith@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@...> wrote:
                      > > Tir Gwaith scribed:
                      > >
                      > >>> So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
                      > >>> appended to them.
                      > >>
                      > >> That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of
                      > >> those feats (I'm considering homebrews, here.)
                      > >
                      > > True, but that's how we've always done it.
                      > >
                      > > It would be nice to have a tag that would grant a feat/ability automatically
                      > > but only if the PC passes the prereqs but we don't have that now. Nice FREQ
                      > > though.
                      >
                      > Wait, we've come across this before? I didn't know that. Definitely
                      > something I'd like to look at post 6.0.
                      >
                      > >
                      > >>> In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
                      > >>> AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.
                      > >>
                      > >> Yep.  At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT didn't reliably work everwhere
                      > >> (DOMAINS / DEITY was one I remember distinctly.)
                      > >>
                      > >>> A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
                      > >>> the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.
                      > >>
                      > >> Yep.  I think a long-term solution would be to wrap FEAT into
                      > >> AUTO:FEAT.  I do recall there was some subtle difference between the
                      > >> functionality of FEAT and AUTO:FEAT, but I don't recall what that is.
                      > >> If there isn't, then there is no point to maintaining FEAT, and we
                      > >> should go the deprecation (and LST converter change) route.
                      > >
                      > > I know there were discussions with Tom about this but I don't recall where
                      > > they went.
                      >
                      > Yep, same here. On my list to review...
                      >
                      > Tir Gwaith
                      > PCGen LST Chimp
                      >
                    • pshipley@ymail.com
                      Couldn t see anything in Code or Doc trackers so have raised a general FEAT doesn t work in (monster) RACES code tracker. I have noted there though that
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 27, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Couldn't see anything in Code or Doc trackers so have raised a general "FEAT doesn't work in (monster) RACES" code tracker. I have noted there though that this could also be considered as a combination doc/data bug (& I have treated it as such in my local rsrd by replacing all the FEAT: entries with VFEAT: for the moment...).

                        --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "karianna03" <martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I only 10% followed this conversation, did everything get trackered that needed to be?
                        >
                        > K
                        >
                        > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Tir Gwaith <Tir.Gwaith@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Eddy Anthony <eddyba@> wrote:
                        > > > Tir Gwaith scribed:
                        > > >
                        > > >>> So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
                        > > >>> appended to them.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of
                        > > >> those feats (I'm considering homebrews, here.)
                        > > >
                        > > > True, but that's how we've always done it.
                        > > >
                        > > > It would be nice to have a tag that would grant a feat/ability automatically
                        > > > but only if the PC passes the prereqs but we don't have that now. Nice FREQ
                        > > > though.
                        > >
                        > > Wait, we've come across this before? I didn't know that. Definitely
                        > > something I'd like to look at post 6.0.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>> In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
                        > > >>> AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Yep.  At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT didn't reliably work everwhere
                        > > >> (DOMAINS / DEITY was one I remember distinctly.)
                        > > >>
                        > > >>> A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
                        > > >>> the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Yep.  I think a long-term solution would be to wrap FEAT into
                        > > >> AUTO:FEAT.  I do recall there was some subtle difference between the
                        > > >> functionality of FEAT and AUTO:FEAT, but I don't recall what that is.
                        > > >> If there isn't, then there is no point to maintaining FEAT, and we
                        > > >> should go the deprecation (and LST converter change) route.
                        > > >
                        > > > I know there were discussions with Tom about this but I don't recall where
                        > > > they went.
                        > >
                        > > Yep, same here. On my list to review...
                        > >
                        > > Tir Gwaith
                        > > PCGen LST Chimp
                        > >
                        >
                      • Stefan Radermacher
                        I think the FEAT:x tag in race files is no longer current, it should be replaces by AUTO:FEAT|x. Regards, Stefan.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 27, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I think the FEAT:x tag in race files is no longer current, it should be
                          replaces by AUTO:FEAT|x.

                          Regards,
                          Stefan.

                          On 27.02.10 12:45, pshipley@... wrote:
                          > Couldn't see anything in Code or Doc trackers so have raised a general "FEAT doesn't work in (monster) RACES" code tracker. I have noted there though that this could also be considered as a combination doc/data bug (& I have treated it as such in my local rsrd by replacing all the FEAT: entries with VFEAT: for the moment...).
                          >
                          > --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, "karianna03"<martijnverburg@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> I only 10% followed this conversation, did everything get trackered that needed to be?
                          >>
                          >> K
                          >>
                          >> --- In PCGenListFileHelp@yahoogroups.com, Tir Gwaith<Tir.Gwaith@> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Eddy Anthony<eddyba@> wrote:
                          >>>> Tir Gwaith scribed:
                          >>>>
                          >>>>>> So these need to be set individually with VFEAT tags with the feats PRE tags
                          >>>>>> appended to them.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> That means changing that if one wants to change the Prereqs of any of
                          >>>>> those feats (I'm considering homebrews, here.)
                          >>>>
                          >>>> True, but that's how we've always done it.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> It would be nice to have a tag that would grant a feat/ability automatically
                          >>>> but only if the PC passes the prereqs but we don't have that now. Nice FREQ
                          >>>> though.
                          >>>
                          >>> Wait, we've come across this before? I didn't know that. Definitely
                          >>> something I'd like to look at post 6.0.
                          >>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>>>> In the case of feats that are truly automatic we need to change FEAT: to
                          >>>>>> AUTO:FEAT|, something I thought we had discussed in the past.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Yep. At the time, IIRC, AUTO:FEAT didn't reliably work everwhere
                          >>>>> (DOMAINS / DEITY was one I remember distinctly.)
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>> A code bug needs to be opened so the code team can figure out the extent of
                          >>>>>> the problem, FEAT is also supposed to be valid in race and domain lines too.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Yep. I think a long-term solution would be to wrap FEAT into
                          >>>>> AUTO:FEAT. I do recall there was some subtle difference between the
                          >>>>> functionality of FEAT and AUTO:FEAT, but I don't recall what that is.
                          >>>>> If there isn't, then there is no point to maintaining FEAT, and we
                          >>>>> should go the deprecation (and LST converter change) route.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> I know there were discussions with Tom about this but I don't recall where
                          >>>> they went.
                          >>>
                          >>> Yep, same here. On my list to review...
                          >>>
                          >>> Tir Gwaith
                          >>> PCGen LST Chimp
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.